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New overtaking rules


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#1 Rodaknee

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:32

Even less reason to watch the races.

 

Info that hasn't been released to Joe Public, only the teams have seen this.  More FIA horlicks.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/60815007

 

 

 



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#2 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:37

Except they're good? There needs to be far more focus on a driver's responsibility to leave room than their right to take the racing line.



#3 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:37

Love how this is couched in terms of 'Max Verstappen's aggressive driving' and not 'Hamilton running Verstappen off the edge of the track in Monza/Jeddah when Max was fully alongside' or 'Hamilton leaving the track and gaining a position on Lap One of Abby Dabby'.

 

BBC gonna BBC I guess. 


Edited by ClubmanGT, 20 March 2022 - 19:39.


#4 RekF1

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:37

So it's basically saying that Max got away with it last year.

Overtaking on the inside
The new guidelines dictate that a driver being overtaken must give "sufficient room to an overtaking car" if "a significant portion" is alongside.

The overtaking manoeuvre must be done "in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to remain within the limits of the track".

The rules do not explicitly define what "a significant portion" of a car means, but they say that "among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner".

Overtaking on the outside
The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside. The FIA says that the requirement for a driver being overtaken to give "sufficient room" becomes active when "a significant portion" of the attacking car is alongside, with the same requirement for the manoeuvre to be safe and controlled.

The definition of "significant portion" again remains not precise but it does define that one factor considered will be "if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner".

It adds: "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track."

This rule would have guaranteed a penalty for Verstappen in his infamous fight with Lewis Hamilton at Turn Four in Brazil last year.

Edited by RekF1, 20 March 2022 - 19:38.


#5 Myrvold

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:38

Less reason because they are moving to eliminate that drivers can just force others off the track‽‽

#6 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:38

But I mean this is actually good, clearly articulating that you must leave space and run people off the road is what we want.  

 

You can't have side-by-side racing if one driver is allowed to drive the other off the track as soon as they get alongside. 

 

They're the best drivers in the world, whatever you make the rules, they'll manage it. 



#7 Beri

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:39

So it's basically saying that Max got away with it last year.
Overtaking on the inside
The new guidelines dictate that a driver being overtaken must give "sufficient room to an overtaking car" if "a significant portion" is alongside.
The overtaking manoeuvre must be done "in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to remain within the limits of the track".
The rules do not explicitly define what "a significant portion" of a car means, but they say that "among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner".
Overtaking on the outside
The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside. The FIA says that the requirement for a driver being overtaken to give "sufficient room" becomes active when "a significant portion" of the attacking car is alongside, with the same requirement for the manoeuvre to be safe and controlled.
The definition of "significant portion" again remains not precise but it does define that one factor considered will be "if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner".
It adds: "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track."
This rule would have guaranteed a penalty for Verstappen in his infamous fight with Lewis Hamilton at Turn Four in Brazil last year.


It would also have meant a penalty for Hamilton in Jeddah and Monza. So that evens your one sided comment out.

#8 TheFish

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:40

Love how this is couched in terms of 'Max Verstappen's aggressive driving' and not 'Hamilton running Verstappen off the edge of the track in Monza/Jeddah when Max was fully alongside' or 'Hamilton leaving the track and gaining a position on Lap One of Abby Dabby'.

BBC gonna BBC I guess.


Yes, Hamilton was very dangerous in Jeddah…

Good to have new standards though, excellent to see improvements after Masi has gone. Forcing drivers to leave space should improve racing.

#9 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:40

So it's basically saying that Max got away with it last year.

 

There are several instances of Lewis closing Max off the circuit and leaving the track to gain a position, so they both 'got away' with quite a bit. 

 

The driving standards were totally arbitrary which is why we ended up with 100 page threads any time those two got near each other  :rotfl:


Edited by ClubmanGT, 20 March 2022 - 19:41.


#10 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:41

I'm also kind of disappointed the rule doesn't read "All the of the time, you must leave the space!". 



#11 TheFish

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:42

There are several instances of Lewis closing Max off the circuit and leaving the track to gain a position, so they both 'got away' with quite a bit.

The driving standards were totally arbitrary which is why we ended up with 100 page threads any time those two got near each other :rotfl:


Every driver forces people off at the exit, happens way too often and is accepted.

Max went to a new level late last season with intentionally driving off the circuit, that should be sorted by the new rules.

#12 ARTGP

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:42

OP, what issue do you have with the proposal? I'm confused. 



#13 noikeee

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:44

This is exactly the kind of rules I've wanted for years.

"Guy on the inside has the right to push the other guy out of the road" was just ****.

#14 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:46

I'm also kind of disappointed the rule doesn't read "All the of the time, you must leave the space!". 

Well I do think there has to be some exceptions, some corners it not practical. The extreme example is the Nouvelle chicane, you literally can't fit two cars!



#15 Heyli

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:47

So it's basically saying that Max got away with it last year.

Overtaking on the inside
The new guidelines dictate that a driver being overtaken must give "sufficient room to an overtaking car" if "a significant portion" is alongside.

The overtaking manoeuvre must be done "in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to remain within the limits of the track".

The rules do not explicitly define what "a significant portion" of a car means, but they say that "among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner".

Overtaking on the outside
The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside. The FIA says that the requirement for a driver being overtaken to give "sufficient room" becomes active when "a significant portion" of the attacking car is alongside, with the same requirement for the manoeuvre to be safe and controlled.

The definition of "significant portion" again remains not precise but it does define that one factor considered will be "if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner".

It adds: "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track."

This rule would have guaranteed a penalty for Verstappen in his infamous fight with Lewis Hamilton at Turn Four in Brazil last year.

"New guidelines" infers that Max did not get away with it last year, as they are new...? As in, not valid before?



#16 Heyli

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:49

Every driver forces people off at the exit, happens way too often and is accepted.

Max went to a new level late last season with intentionally driving off the circuit, that should be sorted by the new rules.

In fairness, that one should have been sorted with the old rules already... It's the standard forcing people off that seems to be gone now (although there is still some wiggle room if I read it correctly).

 

Or is that what you meant? :)



#17 Ferrim

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:52

I saw some very clean racing today, now I understand why...

#18 RekF1

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:55

It would also have meant a penalty for Hamilton in Jeddah and Monza. So that evens your one sided comment out.


Was that before or after the brake check in Jeddah? I'm not sure what Monza incident you're referring to?

#19 Rodaknee

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 19:57

OP, what issue do you have with the proposal? I'm confused. 

One - we've not been told about the new rulz.  So we had a race under these rulz and no one noticed - or did they?

Two - we are unlikely to have been given the full set of rulz.

Three - drivers won't be told they have broken the rulz and could receive a penalty (or not) some time after the offence.  The Ghost of Masi...



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#20 Timorous

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:00

So it's basically saying that Max got away with it last year.

Overtaking on the inside
The new guidelines dictate that a driver being overtaken must give "sufficient room to an overtaking car" if "a significant portion" is alongside.

The overtaking manoeuvre must be done "in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to remain within the limits of the track".

The rules do not explicitly define what "a significant portion" of a car means, but they say that "among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner".

Overtaking on the outside
The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside. The FIA says that the requirement for a driver being overtaken to give "sufficient room" becomes active when "a significant portion" of the attacking car is alongside, with the same requirement for the manoeuvre to be safe and controlled.

The definition of "significant portion" again remains not precise but it does define that one factor considered will be "if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner".

It adds: "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track."

This rule would have guaranteed a penalty for Verstappen in his infamous fight with Lewis Hamilton at Turn Four in Brazil last year.


So based on that it seems under these rules Silverstone would be a racing incident / Max's fault.

#21 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:00

Three - drivers won't be told they have broken the rulz and could receive a penalty (or not) some time after the offence.  The Ghost of Masi...

That's just a return to the how the sport was for most of the time it's been run. The FIA trying to avoid penalties was a short lived experiment; it had good intentions but the teams didn't play nicely.



#22 Rodaknee

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:01

Love how this is couched in terms of 'Max Verstappen's aggressive driving' and not 'Hamilton running Verstappen off the edge of the track in Monza/Jeddah when Max was fully alongside' or 'Hamilton leaving the track and gaining a position on Lap One of Abby Dabby'.

 

BBC gonna BBC I guess. 

Give it a while and you can read what Sky and Ch4 have to say, having consulted RB.



#23 MinardiCrashDummy

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:02

Glad they have brought these rules back.

 

The racing standards of the last 2 and a half seasons since Canada 19 have been terrible overall.



#24 Casey

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:02

Was that before or after the brake check in Jeddah? I'm not sure what Monza incident you're referring to?

That " brake check " would't have happened under the new rules as unnecessarily slowly or erratically driving

like Lewis did because he wanted to avoid overtaking Max before the DRS  zone would now be punishable !



#25 Ali_G

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:03

Hallelujah.

I’ve been calling for this for over 10 years, especially the bit about overtaking on the outside. No more push opponents off the track hopefully.

#26 flyboym3

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:03

This is really really good news and probably explains Max's driving standards today being much better.

#27 Myrvold

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:04

That " brake check " would't have happened under the new rules as unnecessarily slowly or erratically driving

like Lewis did because he wanted to avoid overtaking Max before the DRS  zone would now be punishable !

 

That rule was there in 2021 as well. Thus why it says that the drivers are reminded of that rule.



#28 Clrnc

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:04

The slowly rule is interesting. Means we won't see Perez kind of slowing down ever again



#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:06

Thanks to the OP for bringing this to everyone's attention, but I must say the OP's interpetation of the rule changes is dead wrong. This is a great move to actually improve racing. The FIA seem to have understood that a lot of things about last year were unacceptable, and they're making all the right changes.

 

If today's Grand Prix is an example, then it seems to be working already. Not one instance of drivers running one another off the road, and the obvious late lunge that was never going to work and caused an accident was penalised.

 

It's about time F1 started bringing back clean racing, as it sets the example to the world.



#30 Beri

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:07

That " brake check " would't have happened under the new rules as unnecessarily slowly or erratically driving
like Lewis did because he wanted to avoid overtaking Max before the DRS  zone would now be punishable !


Even more so, teams are now responsible to order their drivers to give the position back without the race director even telling them too. If they fail to do so, then the Stewards will judge if a penalty is required or not. So Jeddah would not have played out in any way it was, had all the new rules been in place. Hamilton would have been penalized during free practice (Mazepin) and both Verstappen and Hamilton would have their fair share of penalties during the race.

#31 registered

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:12

One - we've not been told about the new rulz.  So we had a race under these rulz and no one noticed - or did they?

Two - we are unlikely to have been given the full set of rulz.

Three - drivers won't be told they have broken the rulz and could receive a penalty (or not) some time after the offence.  The Ghost of Masi...

I actually saw a journo tweet before the race about that before the race

https://twitter.com/...B7U1FSVkaw&s=19



#32 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:13

So based on that it seems under these rules Silverstone would be a racing incident / Max's fault.

 

This bit suggests otherwise: "It adds: "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track."

 

If Max had turned in later so Lewis could run a dive in on a wider line without hitting him, then at 190MPH he would have had to run off track. There were people suggesting he turn in a second later so Lewis could have more room under him; at that speed after a second he would have been behind the grandstands by the time he'd made it around the corner. It does put some onus on the overtaking car to not just fling it up the inside with no quarter given wide of the racing line, so I suspect the outcome would have been the same. 



#33 Beri

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:15

Lol, my comments are genuine, they were as bad as each other at points (Max worse overall IMO) but the real issue was the weak officials and lack of clarity in the rules that were taken advantage of. You could, in a chilidish way say Max started it.


To be fair, I couldn't care less for who "started it". I only care for the fact that both would be punished under the new rules and all the hysterical media and social media frenzy will be forever gone. It's the best thing that could have happened. Because last year was a sh*t show, on track and off.

#34 Ali_G

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:16

Thanks to the OP for bringing this to everyone's attention, but I must say the OP's interpetation of the rule changes is dead wrong. This is a great move to actually improve racing. The FIA seem to have understood that a lot of things about last year were unacceptable, and they're making all the right changes.

If today's Grand Prix is an example, then it seems to be working already. Not one instance of drivers running one another off the road, and the obvious late lunge that was never going to work and caused an accident was penalised.

It's about time F1 started bringing back clean racing, as it sets the example to the world.

This basically brings F1 back to pre 2006 rules / stewarding. Kubica - Massa at Fuji 2007 appeared to change what was acceptable overnight.

Edited by Ali_G, 20 March 2022 - 20:16.


#35 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:16

That " brake check " would't have happened under the new rules as unnecessarily slowly or erratically driving

like Lewis did because he wanted to avoid overtaking Max before the DRS  zone would now be punishable !

 

The brake-check was the result of Max being asked to give a position back after he took to the inside of T2 after Lewis didn't leave him room; which RBR weren't 100% they actually needed to do. 

 

Under these new rules, there would be no 'preemptively giving the place back to avoid a penalty' conundrum because the stewards would need to see if Lewis left space when Max was alongside (he didn't) and then whether Max had to give the position back.

 

Firming up the rules of engagement is a good idea. The teams would now just jump on the radio and say "We're reading and willing to give the place back if it's your ruling that we need to do so" and go hammer and tongs until they get told they have to do it for sure. You just keep going and see who broke the rules first. No position swap, no brake check :)



#36 smitten

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:17

Every driver forces people off at the exit, happens way too often and is accepted.

Max went to a new level late last season with intentionally driving off the circuit, that should be sorted by the new rules.

I think it was covered perfectly adequately by the existing rules, just they weren't applied.



#37 ANF

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:19

These new guidelines sound good to me.



#38 F1 Mike

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:20

Can't really argue with any of these guidelines. Both Hamilton and Verstappen have been guilty of pushing things a little far in the last few seasons. I just hope it has the correct effect and forces drivers to regulate themselves a bit better (so far it looks that way) What we don't want it to do is sanitise tough battles.

#39 milestone 11

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:21

Marklar mentioned this earlier today, must confess that was the first I'd heard of any of it.

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#40 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:23

Brundle mentioned the new rules early in the race as well. It might not have been the headline story, but it wasn't kept a secret.



#41 andrewf1

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:24

New rules to prevent the type of repugnant driving that Max used against Lewis last year and got away with, especially in the last part of the season.

So now we have new driving standard rules, new responsibility on the drivers, new safety car rules and a new race director.

 

All because of the farce which went on last season under the "let them race (without rules)" garbage pretext.

 

Tell me how Max got away with ruining racing standards without telling me Max got away with ruining racing standards.



#42 Pimpwerx

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:27

Let's not pretend these changes weren't implemented due to Max. I see some attempts to equate Lewis' driving to Max's, but they're not the same.

One driver was criticized multiple times last year of overly aggressive driving, and it wasn't Lewis. So just kill that noise. Lewis has overtaken more guys at the sharp end than probably any driver in history, and other than Massa in 2010/2011, and Nico, I can't remember Lewis ever being labeled as overly aggressive.

On top of that don't bring up Monza or Jeddah. Both were instances of Lewis following precedent. In both races, Lewis' actions were preceded by Max doing much worse. Max pushed Lewis off while he was alongside braking for a chicane on lap 1/2 in Monza. In Jeddah, Max drove like a complete asshole before Lewis ran him wide at the hairpin. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when the stewards don't enforce the rules, should Lewis continue to play the good guy, while Max exploits the terrible officiating? Hell no!

Lewis has a long history of being a clean and fair racer. Max has had a short one littered with dodgy moves. Stop the false equivocation, because anyone who has watched the sport for years knows that these guidelines are for Max. Masi was a clown who allowed things to spiral out of control, and it started in Austria '19. He's not a steward, but he should have been working with the stewards to enforce proper standards. Sounds like the new guy is righting the ship. Thank goodness. There's a reason everyone is commenting on Max cleanly, and it's because he didn't last year. At least not with Lewis.

Edited by Pimpwerx, 20 March 2022 - 20:30.


#43 Requiem84

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:29

Let's not pretend these changes weren't implemented sure to Max. I see some attempts to equate Lewis' driving to Max's, but they're not the same.

One driver was criticized multiple times last year of overly aggressive driving, and it wasn't Lewis. So just kill that noise. Lewis has overtaken more guys at the sharp end than probably any driver in history, and other than Massa in 2010/2011, and Nico, I can't remember Lewis ever being labeled as overly aggressive.

On top of that don't bring up Monza or Jeddah. Both were instances of Lewis following precedent. In both races, Lewis' actions were preceded by Max doing much worse. Max pushed Lewis off while he was alongside braking for a chicane on lap 1/2 in Monza. In Jeddah, Max drove like a complete asshole before Lewis ran him wide at the hairpin. Two wrongs don't make a right, but when the stewards don't enforce the rules, should Lewis continue to play the good guy, while Max exploits the terrible officiating? Hell no!

Lewis has a long history of being a clean and fair racer. Max has had a short one littered with dodgy moves. Stop the false equivocation, because anyone who has watched the sport for years knows that these guidelines are for Max. Masi was a clown who allowed things to spiral out of control, and it started in Austria '19. He's not a steward, but he should have been working with the stewards to enforce proper standards. Sounds like the new guy is righting the ship. Thank goodness. There's a reason everyone is commenting on Max cleanly, and it's because he didn't last year. At least not with Lewis.


Dear lord, can we for once not make a topic into Hamilton vs Verstappen!

#44 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:29

Lewis has been running drivers off on the outside for years too. He's generally a clean driver, but he's not above it all.



#45 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:32

One driver was criticized multiple times last year of overly aggressive driving, and it wasn't Lewis. So just kill that noise. Lewis has overtaken more guys at the sharp end than probably any driver in history, and other than Massa in 2010/2011, and Nico, I can't remember Lewis ever being labeled as overly aggressive.

 

If you think Lewis gets held to the same scrutiny as Max in the English-speaking F1 world then I've got a bridge across the Yas Marina to sell you.

 

 

Lewis has a long history of being a clean and fair racer. Max has had a short one littered with dodgy moves. Stop the false equivocation, because anyone who has watched the sport for years knows that these guidelines are for Max.

 

The old 'No True Scotsman' approach. These guidelines are for the two drivers who spent all of last year tripping over each other. Max's 'dirty cheating' is Lewis' 'hard but fair racing', but now we have an objective standard for it. You may be surprised by the outcome. 


Edited by ClubmanGT, 20 March 2022 - 20:34.


#46 mcjohnson

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:33

Love how this is couched in terms of 'Max Verstappen's aggressive driving' and not 'Hamilton running Verstappen off the edge of the track in Monza/Jeddah when Max was fully alongside' or 'Hamilton leaving the track and gaining a position on Lap One of Abby Dabby'.

BBC gonna BBC I guess.


[Sigh]

#47 ColeTrickle44

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:33

Glad to see it. Dirty driving has no place

#48 Pimpwerx

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:35

Lewis has been running drivers off on the outside for years too. He's generally a clean driver, but he's not above it all.

They are not in the same league when it comes to aggression. I'm not blaming Lewis for things every driver does. But Max's antics were beyond the pale. I don't see a point in sugar coating the obvious. They were not changing regulations because of the driver who has been around for 15 years and multiple championships.

#49 Pimpwerx

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:36

If you think Lewis gets held to the same scrutiny as Max in the English-speaking F1 world then I've got a bridge across the Yas Marina to sell you.



The old 'No True Scotsman' approach. These guidelines are for the two drivers who spent all of last year tripping over each other. Max's 'dirty cheating' is Lewis' 'hard but fair racing', but now we have an objective standard for it. You may be surprised by the outcome.

You're entitled to your very wrong opinion. I've said my piece.

#50 ClubmanGT

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 20:36

They are not in the same league when it comes to aggression. I'm not blaming Lewis for things every driver does. But Max's antics were beyond the pale. I don't see a point in sugar coating the obvious. They were not changing regulations because of the driver who has been around for 15 years and multiple championships.

 

Lewis has a poor record when it comes to racing drivers he is competing for the title with in close quarters racing. It's easy to look clean when you're cruising around 30 seconds ahead of everyone else.