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Pirelli 2022 - Turning 18"


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#1 Jerem

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Posted 23 March 2022 - 15:24

I couldn't find a topic to discuss how our favorite manufacturer is doing this year with the new low profile, modern diameter 18" tyres.

What did we think after the first race?
There seemed to be more degradation than before, but that it was rather linear - no cliff. Also, warm up seemed to be an issue especially on the harder compound. And the pressure guidelines had to be changed during the weekend.

In the build up to the race, I had also been wondering whether the drivers who have driven in F2 recently would get a bit of a head start, since 18" tyres have been in F2 since 2020 (only Schumacher and Zhou, and Mazepin if he had stayed). They both drove decent races, without standing out as being more on top of the tyres than the others.

Overall, there didn't seem to be much to complain about, which is great news as we can talk about the cars and drivers.
 



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#2 Bleu

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Posted 24 March 2022 - 07:44

There was a talk that tyre wear would be less but while Bahrain has often been two-stopper, now it was three.



#3 Beri

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Posted 24 March 2022 - 07:57

Im happy with the higher tyre degradation. Albeit must be said that this was likely because drivers already pushing on the out lap with tyres that werent heated up because of the new blankets rule. If anything, ban tyre warmers instantly!

But this did offer some change in tactics and it did do wonders for the action on track. Also its refreshing to see drivers changing tyres for the second time and still not bolting Mediums or Hards under it. It will be a matter of time before the cars are dailed in and the tyre degradation being minimized. But until then, it might look like we finally have some good tyres to race upon:

- Drivers having to manage the tyres to get up to temperature before really stressing the tyre, because else the lifespan is significantly reduced

- Drivers can really race the tyres

- When the tyres finally degrade, it isnt with a huge cliff of performance loss

- No more 1 stop strategies



#4 Mat13

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Posted 24 March 2022 - 07:58

I saw a clip of a 2021 McLaren yesterday and already the 13” wheels look weird. Apart from that, I can’t get too excited about the new wheels- biggest change I noticed on Sunday was the need to warm them on the outlap from the pits.

#5 mtknot

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Posted 24 March 2022 - 09:32

I wish they'd go with the LED covers, but obviously weight is an issue. 



#6 dissident

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Posted 28 March 2022 - 08:01

Bigger rims or not, the tyres are still strange sometimes.

 

In Bahrain degradation was not that different across the compound range.

 

And then yesterday the Hard tyre seemed like it could last the entire race and there wasn't much difference between new and old hards. :confused:



#7 Clatter

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Posted 28 March 2022 - 09:37

I saw a clip of a 2021 McLaren yesterday and already the 13” wheels look weird. Apart from that, I can’t get too excited about the new wheels- biggest change I noticed on Sunday was the need to warm them on the outlap from the pits.

The tyres blanket rules have changed, they can't pre-heat them as high as before.

#8 Ali_G

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Posted 28 March 2022 - 10:03

The tyres blanket rules have changed, they can't pre-heat them as high as before.


It was mentioned yesterday that less heat from the brakes conducts into the sidewalls too.

#9 ARTGP

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 17:19

Pirelli deserve a bit of praise for this new C5 tire. Drivers are able to get multiple fast laps out of it.   Teams are now over fueling the cars so the driver can go out and do 2 or 3 hot laps on the same tire.


Edited by ARTGP, 09 April 2022 - 17:20.


#10 ARTGP

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Posted 07 June 2022 - 14:09

 Will lightning strike twice? 



#11 Beri

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 08:50

The tyres blanket rules have changed, they can't pre-heat them as high as before.

 

I just wish for a ban on tyre blankets all together already. Just go full Indy. They can work it out, surely "the best drivers in the world" should be able to do so as well.



#12 dissident

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 10:54

They will be able to work it out if the tyres are designed properly for that purpose.

 

I doubt it would work with the current tyres across different tracks and conditions.



#13 BRG

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 11:09

They will be able to work it out if the tyres are designed properly for that purpose.

 

I doubt it would work with the current tyres across different tracks and conditions.

Not a problem as Pirelli already make tyres for series that don't have tyre blankets.  And anyway,  I just don't believe that the current tyres can only be used if nicely pre-warmed.



#14 Beri

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 11:43

The safety aspect, that is being thrown in as an excuse to keep on using tyre blankets, is just ridiculous in my opinion.

#15 RA2

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 11:54

What do you have against blankets

#16 Beri

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 12:04

I like drivers who extract the most out of their talents and are not helped. Having drivers to drive on cold tyres is another aspect where one could see a talent of a driver how quickly he can get them at optimum temperature. He could even win or lose a race in that way.
To have pre heated tyres, who are at optimum temperature if they leave the pit lane, is not aiding this.

#17 ARTGP

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 12:08

I like drivers who extract the most out of their talents and are not helped. Having drivers to drive on cold tyres is another aspect where one could see a talent of a driver how quickly he can get them at optimum temperature. He could even win or lose a race in that way.
To have pre heated tyres, who are at optimum temperature if they leave the pit lane, is not aiding this.

 

I think that people trivialize what it means to be on cold tires. Without any understanding of the rubber composition, there's no way to know if expecting a driver to return to the track on cold tires is reasonable. I feel that a lot of people imagine that there is always grip and that there is some linear relationship between km/ temperature/ and grip and the drivers should just get on with. What you will find is it's not simple at all.   There is a crossover point beyond which there is not enough grip to generate temperature. 

 

Unless the tire is being designed to also operate and develop grip/temperature when cold, then other factors must be taken into account. Otherwise it truly is like ice skating. The behavior of the long chain molecules inside the rubber compound is extremely dependent on temperature and that is why Pirelli specify a working temperature. 


Edited by ARTGP, 08 June 2022 - 12:13.


#18 Clatter

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 12:22

I just wish for a ban on tyre blankets all together already. Just go full Indy. They can work it out, surely "the best drivers in the world" should be able to do so as well.

 


Totally agree, but everytime they propose to introduce it, the teams whinge, and they chicken out.

#19 Beri

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 12:22

I think that people trivialize what it means to be on cold tires. Without any understanding of the rubber composition, there's no way to know if expecting a driver to return to the track on cold tires is reasonable. I feel that a lot of people imagine that there is always grip and that there is some linear relationship between km/ temperature/ and grip and the drivers should just get on with. What you will find is it's not simple at all.   There is a crossover point beyond which there is not enough grip to generate temperature. 

 

Unless the tire is being designed to also operate and develop grip/temperature when cold, then other factors must be taken into account. Otherwise it truly is like ice skating. The behavior of the long chain molecules inside the rubber compound is extremely dependent on temperature and that is why Pirelli specify a working temperature. 

 

I can only read excuses in your reply. And that is exactly what is bothering me. Ofcourse the current Pirelli tyre isnt designed to be used as a completely cold tyre. But that should be the challenge for the driver. Half a lap driving on egg shells and ice to get the tyres to an acceptable temperature is exactly what I want as an extra aspect to see drivers abilities. And since the IndyCar drivers can race on cold tyres at speeds in excess of 200 miles an hour straight out of the box, Formula One should not be so narrow minded on the safety aspect and ban tyre blankets already. Or give Pirelli till the end of this season to come up with tyres that do offer grip straight out of the box as a cold tyre and subsequently ban tyre blankets from next season onwards. 

This pampering and talk about safety is just really ridiculous when one speaks about "the best drivers in the world".



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#20 Clatter

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 12:25

I think that people trivialize what it means to be on cold tires. Without any understanding of the rubber composition, there's no way to know if expecting a driver to return to the track on cold tires is reasonable. I feel that a lot of people imagine that there is always grip and that there is some linear relationship between km/ temperature/ and grip and the drivers should just get on with. What you will find is it's not simple at all.   There is a crossover point beyond which there is not enough grip to generate temperature. 

 

Unless the tire is being designed to also operate and develop grip/temperature when cold, then other factors must be taken into account. Otherwise it truly is like ice skating. The behavior of the long chain molecules inside the rubber compound is extremely dependent on temperature and that is why Pirelli specify a working temperature. 

 


Other series manage, so it's all doable. Just tell all concerned it's going to happen , and then stick to it. Pirelli can make any changes required.

#21 BRG

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 15:48

I think that people trivialize what it means to be on cold tires. 

What is trivialising the issue is saying that, of all the racing drivers in all the world, there are just 20 who can't manage with cold tyres.  If they can manage at Le Mans or at Indy, why can't the best drivers in the world (plus Latifi) cope with this?  It makes no sense at all.



#22 ARTGP

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Posted 08 June 2022 - 21:48

What is trivialising the issue is saying that, of all the racing drivers in all the world, there are just 20 who can't manage with cold tyres. If they can manage at Le Mans or at Indy, why can't the best drivers in the world (plus Latifi) cope with this? It makes no sense at all.

Sigh. The “But LeMans, but Indy” arguments are so tiresome. Don’t get me wrong, I think driving around on colder tires is interesting. Imola and Monaco were great in that regard.

With that said, the rubber in an F1 tire has a different chemical make up to that of a Le Mans or Indy tire. In case you didn’t notice, F1 cars are generating far more load than Indy or LeMans so logically one must take into account what this means. Many people have no understanding or ability to grasp that. That is why this may read like “excuses”. It’s your own misunderstanding of the complexity of what you view as a “block of rubber”.

The tire itself is designed to grip and wear in a certain temperature range and operating too far outside of this window leads to behaviour that no one accounted for because it was never designed to operate there. F1 tires aren’t designed to drive away at room temperature. Perhaps they could be. They currently are not.

Google the “glass transition temperature” of a tire. Try driving a “summer tire” in “freezing” conditions. A 3 second google search will almost instantly expand your horizons. Tires are complicated. Polymers are complicated.

Edited by ARTGP, 08 June 2022 - 21:56.


#23 RedRabbit

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 06:15

I don't want to see cars skating around like on ice. I prefer to see a driver really attack a lap straight away.

There is already so much management going on with tire life, brake life, engine wear, temperatures, fuel etc etc, why would this make anything more interesting?

#24 Beri

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 06:50

Sigh. The “But LeMans, but Indy” arguments are so tiresome. Don’t get me wrong, I think driving around on colder tires is interesting. Imola and Monaco were great in that regard.

With that said, the rubber in an F1 tire has a different chemical make up to that of a Le Mans or Indy tire. In case you didn’t notice, F1 cars are generating far more load than Indy or LeMans so logically one must take into account what this means. Many people have no understanding or ability to grasp that. That is why this may read like “excuses”. It’s your own misunderstanding of the complexity of what you view as a “block of rubber”.

The tire itself is designed to grip and wear in a certain temperature range and operating too far outside of this window leads to behaviour that no one accounted for because it was never designed to operate there. F1 tires aren’t designed to drive away at room temperature. Perhaps they could be. They currently are not.

Google the “glass transition temperature” of a tire. Try driving a “summer tire” in “freezing” conditions. A 3 second google search will almost instantly expand your horizons. Tires are complicated. Polymers are complicated.

 

They are. But that doesnt mean Pirelli could change it. And better still; will change it. As long as the FIA finally mandates it. But any argument on the basis of safety, like the teams want to make us believe, is plain ridiculous.



#25 BRG

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 14:42

Sigh. The “But LeMans, but Indy” arguments are so tiresome. 

 

Well, the truth can be tiresome, can't it.  If EVERY OTHER SERIES in motor sport can cope without tyre warmers, why can't Formula One?  You seem to have no answer to that other than muttering about polymers. And incidentally, the loads put on tyres by a LMP1 type car hitting speeds of 330+kph every lap, or by an Indycar hitting 240+mph on a high speed oval probably dwarf anything in F1

 

If Pirelli were told that tyre blankets were done for after 2022, they would act accordingly.  After all, they make different tyres all the time.  Or are you seriously saying that F1 tyre compounds are now fixed in perpetuity and may NEVER be altered? 



#26 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 19:20

They are. But that doesnt mean Pirelli could change it. And better still; will change it. As long as the FIA finally mandates it. But any argument on the basis of safety, like the teams want to make us believe, is plain ridiculous.

The ability to change doesn't mean there is a magical solution. That is to make a tyre that behaves correctly at high temps under big loads  behave ok way outside that range. 
 


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 09 June 2022 - 19:21.


#27 ARTGP

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 19:48

Well, the truth can be tiresome, can't it.  If EVERY OTHER SERIES in motor sport can cope without tyre warmers, why can't Formula One?  You seem to have no answer to that other than muttering about polymers. And incidentally, the loads put on tyres by a LMP1 type car hitting speeds of 330+kph every lap, or by an Indycar hitting 240+mph on a high speed oval probably dwarf anything in F1

 

 Your post has many misconceptions. LMP cars have about 600-700hp. Indycars have about 650-750 hp.  F1 cars have 1000+hp.  The reason that Indycar and LMP can reach such top speeds as F1 and even higher than F1 is because the car with less power (indy/lmp) is carrying far less downforce/drag. That should be quite simple to understand. After all, how could cars with 300 fewer hp match F1 cars in a straight line otherwise?

 

My goal is not to tell you why F1 won't ban tire warmers and tell Pirelli to build a tire than can operate from room temperature. You should ask FOM that. My only point is that the current tire is designed for a certain temperature range and running them far outside of that range on a whim is the equivalent of trying to fry an egg in a cold pan. Or have you wondered why an adhesive products manufacturer might specify to only apply the adhesive above a certain temperature (i.e not recommended to try and seal an automobile windshield in the middle of winter). Tires and glue products don't just "Work". There's actual science behind it...You can't cook eggs in a cold pan either. 

 

 

   F1 can reduce tire blanket temperatures lower and lower but there will come a point when the Pirelli tire will not act like a tire at all. That's the complexity of polymers. Pirelli was never asked to satisfy such a condition so one cannot blindly pull the rug out without allowing Pirelli to change the tire. 


Edited by ARTGP, 09 June 2022 - 21:56.


#28 boomn

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 19:55

Well, the truth can be tiresome, can't it. If EVERY OTHER SERIES in motor sport can cope without tyre warmers, why can't Formula One? You seem to have no answer to that other than muttering about polymers. And incidentally, the loads put on tyres by a LMP1 type car hitting speeds of 330+kph every lap, or by an Indycar hitting 240+mph on a high speed oval probably dwarf anything in F1

If Pirelli were told that tyre blankets were done for after 2022, they would act accordingly. After all, they make different tyres all the time. Or are you seriously saying that F1 tyre compounds are now fixed in perpetuity and may NEVER be altered?

I agree in general that Pirelli could probably do a better job in redesigning tires to work better without blankets. But I don’t agree that LMP1 or Indycar are necessarily proof that it has to work just as well for F1 because the loads are pretty different.
LMP1 hybrid cars accelerated faster than F1 but spread that load across 4 tires, and F1 cars have much higher cornering speeds and braking power. Indycars are going very fast on ovals but the peak lateral g force loads in corners can still be higher in F1 than in Indycar ovals, and Indycar uses special oval-specific tires that don’t have to work well for road course demands

#29 MattPete

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 21:53

 In case you didn’t notice, F1 cars are generating far more load than Indy or LeMans so logically one must take into account what this means. 

 

F1 cars are not fat, they're just big boned.



#30 PlatenGlass

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 22:38

Pirelli was never asked to satisfy such a condition so one cannot blindly pull the rug out without allowing Pirelli to change the tire.


I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting it would happen at the next race. Just that it could happen. So you didn't need to post most of what you've posted.

#31 ARTGP

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Posted 09 June 2022 - 22:45

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting it would happen at the next race. Just that it could happen. So you didn't need to post most of what you've posted.

 

It is implied in several of the post above that the "best drivers in the world" should just "get on with it, driving on ice, it's a challenge".  It's perfectly acceptable to have a "little less grip" than optimal when coming out of the pits. It's something else entirely to be driving on ice. 

 

The fact that teams seem to have a negative opinion on it at all, rather than hoping that their own drivers could gain an advantage is interesting. 


Edited by ARTGP, 09 June 2022 - 22:51.


#32 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 07:51

It is implied in several of the post above that the "best drivers in the world" should just "get on with it, driving on ice, it's a challenge". It's perfectly acceptable to have a "little less grip" than optimal when coming out of the pits. It's something else entirely to be driving on ice.

The fact that teams seem to have a negative opinion on it at all, rather than hoping that their own drivers could gain an advantage is interesting.

Not sure why the teams view should be of interest. The only reason they want to retain them is for performance. I don't blame them, but they are just trying to avoid having to learn new tricks.

#33 Beri

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 09:47

The ability to change doesn't mean there is a magical solution. That is to make a tyre that behaves correctly at high temps under big loads  behave ok way outside that range. 
 

 

There is a magical solution; mandate a ban on tyre blankets. You will see how quick everyone can adapt. Even Pirelli.



#34 BRG

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 11:16

 Your post has many misconceptions. etc etc

 

I am not sure why you seem to be intent on dying in this particular ditch?  All anyone has said is that many think tyre warmers are an unnecessary feature and that it would be perfectly possible for F1 to do without them.  Maybe you have shares in a tyre warming blanket manufacturer?

 

All the evidence shows us that it is feasible.  No-one has demanded that they do it NOW.  But it could be done from 2023 with zero angst, except perhaps for you?



#35 ARTGP

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 12:26

I am not sure why you seem to be intent on dying in this particular ditch? All anyone has said is that many think tyre warmers are an unnecessary feature and that it would be perfectly possible for F1 to do without them. Maybe you have shares in a tyre warming blanket manufacturer?

All the evidence shows us that it is feasible. No-one has demanded that they do it NOW. But it could be done from 2023 with zero angst, except perhaps for you?

I don’t have a problem with them removing tire blankets for 2023. However such an innocuous point of view is not really what was being projected in earlier comments in this thread including from yourself.

Post suggesting that safety concerns were largely horlicks or that F1/Pirelli could even react as soon as ‘23.

Also, for what it’s worth. Tires aren’t “warm” anymore. Given the reduction in blanket temperatures for this season, we are still already some ways towards drivers having to heat the tires.

Edited by ARTGP, 10 June 2022 - 12:32.


#36 Pete_f1

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 12:27

Anyone still think the 18 inche rims look wierd?

#37 Beri

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 13:30

*raises hand* 

 

And I certainly dont get why there had to be a change to 18", when they are covered with a wheel covers.



#38 BRG

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Posted 10 June 2022 - 15:19

Also, for what it’s worth. Tires aren’t “warm” anymore. Given the reduction in blanket temperatures for this season, we are still already some ways towards drivers having to heat the tires.

But, but....according to you, it is impossible to drive on the current F1 tyres if they haven't been sufficiently warmed in advance.  You lectured us at length about polymers and compounds.  :lol: