324 replies to this topic

[Beri]

Aston Martin is a team that is very carefully but steadily in record time being transformed into a top team. Lawrence Stroll leaves no stone unturned in achieving this goal. But with a top team, there comes the question whether the current drivers are the right drivers to propel the team forward into a desired dominance.

 

This thread is about Lance Stroll. After being out performed last season by Vettel, how long will his father keep up with his performances? Will he have to step up his game? Or is he worthy enough for a seat at Aston Martin indefinetely?

 

I am of the opinion that Lance is a good driver. But he never will be a giant slayer. This would mean that Aston Martin currently has a Renault-esque (2005-2006) lineup. With a very good first driver and a decent one in the second seat. In my book, Lawrence Stroll would be better off to add a proven race winner into the second seat to push the team forward. A driver that knows how to get his head down and drag incredible results out of a car that no one expects. Gasly springs to mind. Lance simply isnt the right guy for the team in my opinion.

 

So, how many seasons until Lawrence Stroll boots his kid out of the seat? I'd say; if he fails on outperforming his teammates for two more seasons, so at the end of 2023, Lawrence will look on.

[messy]

We used to say this about Marcus Ericsson at Sauber and he didn't last forever....there's only so long a below-par performing driver can stay in the seat whatever the circumstances, really. 

 

But I think while Aston Martin themselves are performing so poorly, he's safe as houses isn't he? 

[Rodaknee]

Otmar Szafanuer asked this and what happened to him?

[Ali623]

We used to say this about Marcus Ericsson at Sauber and he didn't last forever....there's only so long a below-par performing driver can stay in the seat whatever the circumstances, really. 

 

But I think while Aston Martin themselves are performing so poorly, he's safe as houses isn't he? 

 

Stroll is quite a unique circumstance in that his father literally owns the team, and Lawrence seems to be living his F1 driver fantasy through his son so I wouldn't be surprised if Lance is in the seat until his dad sells/gives up the team.

[FortiFord]

Aston Martin is a team that is very carefully but steadily in record time being transformed into a top team. Lawrence Stroll leaves no stone unturned in achieving this goal. But with a top team, there comes the question whether the current drivers are the right drivers to propel the team forward into a desired dominance.

 

This thread is about Lance Stroll. After being out performed last season by Vettel, how long will his father keep up with his performances? Will he have to step up his game? Or is he worthy enough for a seat at Aston Martin indefinetely?

 

I am of the opinion that Lance is a good driver. But he never will be a giant slayer. This would mean that Aston Martin currently has a Renault-esque (2005-2006) lineup. With a very good first driver and a decent one in the second seat. In my book, Lawrence Stroll would be better off to add a proven race winner into the second seat to push the team forward. A driver that knows how to get his head down and drag incredible results out of a car that no one expects. Gasly springs to mind. Lance simply isnt the right guy for the team in my opinion.

 

So, how many seasons until Lawrence Stroll boots his kid out of the seat? I'd say; if he fails on outperforming his teammates for two more seasons, so at the end of 2023, Lawrence will look on.

 

I think Vettel will retire at the end of this season. It's clear the AM is not competitive, and the impression i get from Vettel is that he's not one who really enjoys picking up scraps in the midfield. That means they will need a new driver for next season and therefore i think Stroll is safe for the next few seasons. 

 

Separately, i also think the reason that Lawrence Stroll is in F1 is purely because of his son. I don't think he would kick his own son out regardless. 

[TheFish]

He lost 43-34 last season against a 4 time WDC. He's had a pole position and 3 podiums. It's not been disastrous and so there's no real pressure yet.

[Beri]

He lost 43-34 last season against a 4 time WDC. He's had a pole position and 3 podiums. It's not been disastrous and so there's no real pressure yet.

 

43-34 where Vettel was denied an additional 18 points at Hungary. Also a 13-7 loss in the qualifying battle for Stroll. If we go the "he drove against a world champion"-route, then consider the following: Giovinazzi outqualified Raikkonen 14-4.

[Anja]

I think he's safe at least as long as the team has bigger problems - namely, the car. At this moment there's just not much to gain by replacing him. Until they're in the thick of the battle for some top positions Lance isn't much of a problem, he's not that bad. 

Edited by Anja, 24 March 2022 - 10:33.

[JimmyClark]

He lost 43-34 last season against a 4 time WDC. He's had a pole position and 3 podiums. It's not been disastrous and so there's no real pressure yet.

 

Yes, this. I quite like Lance - I think even without his father there, he is a competent F1 driver. Now, I don't think he will be a leader of a top team, but he's pretty reliable for points finishes and is great in the wet. 

 

The closest he's had to a top car is the 2020 Racing Point, and he really didn't disgrace himself there, despite a bout of COVID and he retired so many times that year anyway for things out of his control (engine in Austria, taken out by Leclerc in Russia, tyre failure in Mugello, taken out by Kvyat in Bahrain). 

 

So overall he deserves his place on the grid - but Aston will need a better no. 1 driver next to him if they do want to fight at the front consistently when they have the car for it.  

[KavB]

I doubt Lawrence will ever kick out his son.

 

Lance's talent is obviously nowhere near the talent of the best drivers, but he also is not dreadfully off the pace. When the car is competitive he can still score decent points, even if another driver can get much better results. It would be a different story if he struggles to get out of Q1 in a front running car. 

 

I don't know the man, but I think giving his son the opportunity to race in F1 outweighs the results or returns he will get from his investment into Aston Martin. It is unfortunate because there are many drivers who would provide more entertainment than Lance but it is what it is. 

[Risil]

Some pundits have said Stroll lacks the confidence and assertiveness that marks out the true F1 drivers. Judging by his performances in the wet in Turkey, and his collection of unlikely podiums that are too numerous to be purely coincidental, his car control isn't lacking.

It's said that he won't be fired by his dad, but equally it's quite hard to imagine him moving to a team where his family isn't a shareholder. I think that would be the best test of his strength as a driver.

[TheFish]

43-34 where Vettel was denied an additional 18 points at Hungary. Also a 13-7 loss in the qualifying battle for Stroll. If we go the "he drove against a world champion"-route, then consider the following: Giovinazzi outqualified Raikkonen 14-4.

Sure that 18 point swing would have made it a lot worse. He only lost 13-7 against a guy who was considered an amazing qualifier when he was at Red Bull.

 

Not sure what Gio doing to an old guy who got tonked by Vettel has to do with anything.

[PlatenGlass]

Aston Martin is a team that is very carefully but steadily in record time being transformed into a top team.

I dispute the premise. Being a top team is about results and looking at Bahrain they have just about the worst car. The driver line-up is the least of their worries.

[romaincrouton]

The Aston Martin Strollers. Lawrence has invested big and seems to have an ego to match it. Lance will leave after winning his 8th WDC, you heard it hear first.

[ANF]

Otmar Szafanuer asked this and what happened to him?

He did?

[Muppetmad]

Lance isn't spectacular, but he's a long way from being Mazepin. Unless/until the team becomes a frontrunner, he's surely safe.

[ConsiderAndGo]

He isn't going anywhere anytime soon. There have been worse drivers who've ended up being in F1 much longer than Stroll. 

[dissident]

Safe for as long as he wants to be there, he's not horrible.

[Stumpy29]

Depends how much Lawrence loves his son. When results do not come and the team becomes a money pit, even Lawrence will realize that he should have just bought an Indycar team for his son’s hobby.

[FortiFord]

43-34 where Vettel was denied an additional 18 points at Hungary. Also a 13-7 loss in the qualifying battle for Stroll. If we go the "he drove against a world champion"-route, then consider the following: Giovinazzi outqualified Raikkonen 14-4.

 

It shows at the very least that he's above the level of Schiaterella/Adams/Deletraz/early days Diniz. 

Edited by FortiFord, 24 March 2022 - 10:59.

[Anderis]

I think Stroll did okayish last year and the year before. I think he is pretty safe, he's good enough to be a number 2 driver for a team that doesn't fight for championships (if Aston get there as a team- then we can have a discussion) and I would deem it more likely that Lance himself retires due to lack of motivation before he will get kicked out.

[Anderis]

43-34 where Vettel was denied an additional 18 points at Hungary. Also a 13-7 loss in the qualifying battle for Stroll. If we go the "he drove against a world champion"-route, then consider the following: Giovinazzi outqualified Raikkonen 14-4.

For context.

Races:

Stroll 10-7 Vettel

Raikkonen 10-8 Giovinazzi

[ensign14]

I'm looking on Stroll as a long-term experiment.  Can you build a top-class F1 driver by rushing him through the lower formulae and ensuring almost his entire learning process is in the big cars?  So far he's not really been better than OK, very occasionally getting a great result thanks to some freaks of happenstance, occasional flashes of excellence (his pole at Turkey being the chief one) but nothing to make me think he deserves it more than (say) Piastri.  Even his podia have asterisks; two were thanks to the idiotic red flag regulations and one was when his team-mate was winning.

 

There have been worse drivers who've ended up being in F1 much longer than Stroll. 

 

The only one I can think of is Philippe Alliot.  Perhaps Sutil. 

[kumo7]

I second to this opinion that it is to Lance to leave the team for a better equipments. If he could, that is the question and if he does is yet another matter.

I assume Laurence will never through his son out of his car unless lance quite by himself, which could be very painful.

[Colbul1]

When we mention Stroll's 3 podiums, we should caveat it with he was in a fortunate position on all 3 of them and in all 3 cases a mildly better racing driver would have won the race each time.  In Sakhir his team mate won the race from last. In Baku he was ahead of Daniel and Valterri and got beat easily by both, in Monza he got a free 20 second bonus pitstop and still fluffed his lines.  As for Turkey, at 1 point he was over a minute up the Road on Norris and finished 10 seconds behind him in 9th.  I don't see the wet weather skills there.  Lance is nothing more than a mediocre pay driver who was out qualified in Bahrain by a man who had got in the car for the first time the day before!

Edited by Colbul1, 24 March 2022 - 11:19.

[Jops14]

I don’t see the team becoming a moneypit to be honest, with the sponsors they have and budget cap in place, I don’t think its beyond the realms of possibility all the teams start turning a profit, he probably wont have to put any of his own money in

The chances of the brand being a moneypit are higher, ultimately hes a decent F1 driver, i think he’ll be there for another 5+ years, if he stops, it will be his choice

[Fivestripes]

I recall hearing somewhere that Lawrence is totally convinced his little boy is WDC material   

[player1s]

Unless Sr. gets bought out I cant see him leave anytime soon. Sr. might start a LeMans program to push him to there however

[SenorSjon]

He lost 43-34 last season against a 4 time WDC. He's had a pole position and 3 podiums. It's not been disastrous and so there's no real pressure yet.

 

And when was his last title? 2013 was 8 years ago in 2021. In F1 terms, that is close to 80 human years.

 

Sure that 18 point swing would have made it a lot worse. He only lost 13-7 against a guy who was considered an amazing qualifier when he was at Red Bull.

 

Not sure what Gio doing to an old guy who got tonked by Vettel has to do with anything.

 

That is the point is it? He was good when his car could give him a position in front of the others. He isn't very good in pack racing.

 

I'm looking on Stroll as a long-term experiment.  Can you build a top-class F1 driver by rushing him through the lower formulae and ensuring almost his entire learning process is in the big cars?  So far he's not really been better than OK, very occasionally getting a great result thanks to some freaks of happenstance, occasional flashes of excellence (his pole at Turkey being the chief one) but nothing to make me think he deserves it more than (say) Piastri.  Even his podia have asterisks; two were thanks to the idiotic red flag regulations and one was when his team-mate was winning.

 

 

The only one I can think of is Philippe Alliot.  Perhaps Sutil. 

 

Someone with the no1 on his car has already completed this experiment. 

[TheFish]

When we mention Stroll's 3 podiums, we should caveat it with he was in a fortunate position on all 3 of them and in all 3 cases a mildly better racing driver would have won the race each time.  In Sakhir his team mate won the race from last. In Baku he was ahead of Daniel and Valterri and got beat easily by both, in Monza he got a free 20 second bonus pitstop and still fluffed his lines.  As for Turkey, at 1 point he was over a minute up the Road on Norris and finished 10 seconds behind him in 9th.  I don't see the wet weather skills there.  Lance is nothing more than a mediocre pay driver who was out qualified in Bahrain by a man who had got in the car for the first time the day before!

We can caveat lots of things. He got beaten by Bottas and Ricciardo in a Merc and a Red Bull whilst he drove a Williams. The tyres were weird in Turkey that year, before he pit he was comfortably leading the race in tricky wet conditions. Whilst Hamilton got stuck behind Vettel for ages and Max went for a few spins, Stroll was imperious. The guy who beat him in qualifying in Bahrain never got a podium.

 

I don't think Stroll is a future WDC or anything daft like that, but the amount of abuse he gets is over the top.

[midgrid]

A similar case to Stroll's current situation is Marco Andretti, who had a 15-year career in his family's team in IndyCar, despite only being the lead driver in the championship on one occasion.  I'm not sure if Marco stepped back voluntarily or was encouraged to move on, but I suspect Stroll has the seat for as long as he and his father want it.

[Dara]

Stroll does remind me of Pedro Diniz.In the game because of money, but still just good enough to deserve the seat even if the money would dry out.

That is as long as they are not in a race winning car that is. Then there are better options.

[ensign14]

Someone with the no1 on his car has already completed this experiment.

Ah, but he obviously has natural talent, as did Kimi.  With Stroll it seems more of a construction exercise.  Fit, not nascitur.

[PlayboyRacer]

I don't think Stroll is a future WDC or anything daft like that, but the amount of abuse he gets is over the top.

I agree. He was pretty much even with Vettel last season. Sounds ridiculous right? But he was... finished in the points more often, while Vettel's peak highs were superior.

It shows how far Vettel has plummeted. But if he still deserves a spot at a team like Aston on performance, then so does Lance.

Personally I wouldn't have either of them. The team and car has a number of issues but the driver pairing is one of them.

[TomNokoe]

As long as Lawrence is owner, Lance will be driving. But I do agree with others that Lance isn't as bad as some make out.

[danmills]

If he has to bring in another winner to get the team up, hes openly admitting the team isnt great whilst also admitting his son isn't top drawer.

Double edged sword.

My bet is Lance will stay until / if the car is spectacularly good.

Might bag a lucky fluke win, but background fodder for another decade.

[SilverArrow31]

Is this some kind of trick question.... his dad won't kick him out, no matter how much I believe he should

[Peat]

We used to say this about Marcus Ericsson at Sauber and he didn't last forever....there's only so long a below-par performing driver can stay in the seat whatever the circumstances, really. 

 

 

As an interesting aside, AFAIK the people who brought the Ericsson backing still have a controlling stake in the team. Them not wanting to concede their stake is what killed the Andretti sale. 

[derstatic]

As long as Lawrence owns the team Lance will be one of it's drivers. He's a competent enough driver but will never consistently bother the very best. Lance can do the job with competence. He's evolved into a fairly safe pair of hands, but has his limitations both in absolute pace and race craft. There are better options, Lawrence doesn't want them. This is a mega father-son project so can't really blame him. 

[vas04614]

How long does Lance have?

Until Lawrence owns the team

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

How Long?

Romain Grosjean anyone? . . .

[F1 Mike]

I still can't work out if Lawrence is helping or hindering his son's career - the team seems to have gone downhill since he took full control.

But as a driver I think Lance has proved himself to be a solid midfield driver capable of bringing home points if the car allows. Clearly he will be in the sport as long as his dad can allow.
Not convinced he would be anything special in a top car.

[cpbell]

We used to say this about Marcus Ericsson at Sauber and he didn't last forever....there's only so long a below-par performing driver can stay in the seat whatever the circumstances, really. 

 

But I think while Aston Martin themselves are performing so poorly, he's safe as houses isn't he? 

Agreed.  I suspect, on current performance, the Stroll consortium is more likely to give up on the team than on Lance.

[cpbell]

Stroll does remind me of Pedro Diniz.In the game because of money, but still just good enough to deserve the seat even if the money would dry out.

That is as long as they are not in a race winning car that is. Then there are better options.

I'd not thought of that comparison, but it is very apt.

[RedRabbit]

Odd question, considering he's not been embarrassed by any teammates so far.

[vas04614]

Ok..so without his money, will a team like Alfa romeo or Haas will take him?

[noikeee]

I think he's guaranteed a spot for as long as Lawrence invests in F1. And I think the plan is to persist until they eventually give him a top car. Can't see him being dropped out even if they're fighting for championships, he'll just be a #2. Dad will be happy to give him the chance to win a few races.

Given that Aston seems to have dropped back, and that the huge investment in the team will take years to pay off, this is a long term thing, I think Lance is safe for at least the next 5 years.

The question is more who replaces Seb if he gets too bored at the end of the season. Would Daniel Ricciardo be tempted by another big pay check?

Edited by noikeee, 24 March 2022 - 13:19.

[HeadFirst]

When we mention Stroll's 3 podiums, we should caveat it with he was in a fortunate position on all 3 of them and in all 3 cases a mildly better racing driver would have won the race each time.  In Sakhir his team mate won the race from last. In Baku he was ahead of Daniel and Valterri and got beat easily by both, in Monza he got a free 20 second bonus pitstop and still fluffed his lines.  As for Turkey, at 1 point he was over a minute up the Road on Norris and finished 10 seconds behind him in 9th.  I don't see the wet weather skills there.  Lance is nothing more than a mediocre pay driver who was out qualified in Bahrain by a man who had got in the car for the first time the day before!

 

I love this. Should we also caveat Verstappen's WDC, or his first F1 win. Both of them were under fortunate circumstances. Many drivers have had the benefit of good fortune, not just Stroll. Nobody has ever claimed Stroll was a potential WDC (seriously, how many are there on the grid today ... 3?) but he is a competent #2 for a mid pack team. It is easy to make most mid-pack drivers look bad, when you cherry pick the negatives. Sure he was outqualified by Nico. Tell me where did they each finish the race? And how many podiums does Hulkenberg have in his long career?

[thefinalapex]

I'm looking on Stroll as a long-term experiment.  Can you build a top-class F1 driver by rushing him through the lower formulae and ensuring almost his entire learning process is in the big cars?  So far he's not really been better than OK, very occasionally getting a great result thanks to some freaks of happenstance, occasional flashes of excellence (his pole at Turkey being the chief one) but nothing to make me think he deserves it more than (say) Piastri.  Even his podia have asterisks; two were thanks to the idiotic red flag regulations and one was when his team-mate was winning.

 

 

The only one I can think of is Philippe Alliot.  Perhaps Sutil. 

 

Sutil? I thought he wasn't that bad was he? but its been a long time so maybe you're right.

[Jovanotti]

At this point I'd rather ask "How long does Lawrence have?".