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Cars that were wasted due to a bad driver pairing


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#1 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:00

Posted in the Haas thread… but if KMag hadn’t returned, and Mazepin was driving instead - the world would think that Haas had developed another total dud of a car, and Mick hauling it up into Q2 and scrapping around at the bottom of the points would be considered an amazing feat - he’d be the next best thing

Instead - Schumi Jnr now has a fight on his hands and will be seen as the one who is letting the side down, if he doesn’t start matching Magnussen.

Got me wondering which other decent cars in F1’s past were actually better than the drivers driving them made them look

The margins are so small in F1… click your fingers twice and that is a whole bunch of lap time /grid positions. A driver could easily throw away/waste a decent car - and without a decent team mate to benchmark, nobody would ever know.

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#2 TheAviator

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:03

Ferrari SF70H and SF71H.

Put Hamilton, Max or Leclerc of today in that second car and its easy WCC even with SF70H reliability issues that occured at the end for Seb.

Seb was good with SF70H, but Kimi was just underwhelming. I reckon that in these 2 years, with Alonso or Hamilton at the wheel, Ferrari would have taken at least one title in 2 years (WCC or WDC)

Edited by TheAviator, 29 March 2022 - 19:03.


#3 Astandahl

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:05

Ferrari SF70H and SF71H.

Put Hamilton, Max or Leclerc of today in that second car and its easy WCC even with SF70H reliability issues that occured at the end for Seb.

Seb was good with SF70H, but Kimi was just underwhelming. I reckon that in these 2 years, with Alonso or Hamilton at the wheel, Ferrari would have taken at least one title in 2 years (WCC or WDC)

I think that no one would have done better than Seb with the SF 70H. It was "his" car. He was able to do things that he never did before and after.



#4 PistolPete

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:06

Posted in the Haas thread… but if KMag hadn’t returned, and Mazepin was driving instead - the world would think that Haas had developed another total dud of a car, and Mick hauling it up into Q2 and scrapping around at the bottom of the points would be considered an amazing feat - he’d be the next best thing

Instead - Schumi Jnr now has a fight on his hands and will be seen as the one who is letting the side down, if he doesn’t start matching Magnussen.

Got me wondering which other decent cars in F1’s past were actually better than the drivers driving them made them look

The margins are so small in F1… click your fingers twice and that is a whole bunch of lap time /grid positions. A driver could easily throw away/waste a decent car - and without a decent team mate to benchmark, nobody would ever know.


I think its unfair to Mick.. it’s race two… He is a great and fast talent with a good CV and I am sure he is putting in decent performances, why should this suddenly stop.

#5 messy

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:07

2012 Sauber C31. I’m not trying to claim that Perez or Kobayashi were bad drivers, but I reckon (at least at the start of the year), that Sauber was one of the best cars on the grid. And this is Sauber - what an opportunity that year was to get a couple of victories - but a 21 year old Perez and Kobayashi couldn’t really consistently deliver. Telling that neither of them made the Autosport top ten drivers at the end of the year.

#6 Disgrace

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:10

2012 Sauber C31. I’m not trying to claim that Perez or Kobayashi were bad drivers, but I reckon (at least at the start of the year), that Sauber was one of the best cars on the grid. And this is Sauber - what an opportunity that year was to get a couple of victories - but a 21 year old Perez and Kobayashi couldn’t really consistently deliver. Telling that neither of them made the Autosport top ten drivers at the end of the year.

 

Ditto the Williams of that year in the hands of Maldonado - who did occasionally show what speed the car did have - and Bruno Senna.



#7 TheAviator

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:12

I think that no one would have done better than Seb with the SF 70H. It was "his" car. He was able to do things that he never did before and after.

I wouldnt go that far, but he did very good job that year. Kimi didnt, he was quite a bit of and with a better driver in second car WCC was in play

#8 Astandahl

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:13

I wouldnt go that far, but he did very good job that year. Kimi didnt, he was quite a bit of and with a better driver in second car WCC was in play

Trust me, Vettel was absolutely phenomenal in 2017. For me, it's by far his best season in terms of raw speed and pure performance. "Ruined" only by that stupid Baku clown show (Singapore was a lot of bad luck as well).

I agree with Kimi. He struggled with the SF 70H.


Edited by Astandahl, 29 March 2022 - 19:19.


#9 Casey

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:17

Williams 1989 - 1990 Boutsen and Patrese in the Williams - Renault after Mansell left when they still used the bad Judd engine .

 

Mansell returned in 1991,  won 5 races and ended second in the championship after Senna .



#10 Dolph

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:20

Posted in the Haas thread… but if KMag hadn’t returned, and Mazepin was driving instead - the world would think that Haas had developed another total dud of a car, and Mick hauling it up into Q2 and scrapping around at the bottom of the points would be considered an amazing feat - he’d be the next best thing

Instead - Schumi Jnr now has a fight on his hands and will be seen as the one who is letting the side down, if he doesn’t start matching Magnussen.

Got me wondering which other decent cars in F1’s past were actually better than the drivers driving them made them look

The margins are so small in F1… click your fingers twice and that is a whole bunch of lap time /grid positions. A driver could easily throw away/waste a decent car - and without a decent team mate to benchmark, nobody would ever know.

 

 

The 2007, 2008 and 2009 Ferraris. Driver pairing Massa and Raikkonen.

 

2007 Renault. Driver pairing Fisichella and Kovalainen.



#11 Dhillon

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:21

Bottas in Mercedes. Surely Rosberg or any top driver would have done better.

#12 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:27

Bottas in Mercedes. Surely Rosberg or any top driver would have done better.


They had a pretty good driver in the other car though.

#13 Bleu

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:27

Probably Footwork 1993, especially towards end of the season? Derek Warwick who was probably past his prime and Aguri Suzuki achieved many top-10s in qualifyings, but overall team scored just four points during the season. 



#14 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:30

I believe Larrousse had a pretty good car back in 1990(?). A podium for Aguri Suzuki and a regular-ish point scorer (when points were only given to the top six cars) in the hands of him and rookie Eric Bernard.

#15 FortiFord

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:30

Trulli - Nakano in the 97 Prost. There was probably a win in there if Panis didn’t break his legs.

Fisi - Ralf in the 97 Jordan. One could make the argument that a more experienced driver would’ve won a race in that car (Argentina or Germany).

Agree about the 07 and 08 Ferraris, especially given what we know now and how Massa/Kimi faired against other subsequent teammates.

Also agree with the 18 Ferrari.

I’ll also add the 2010 Red Bull. Might seem strange since they won both championships, but I think with the speed advantage they had they should’ve been dominant.

#16 Astandahl

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:31

The 2007, 2008 and 2009 Ferraris. Driver pairing Massa and Raikkonen.

 

2007 Renault. Driver pairing Fisichella and Kovalainen.

Great pick. Always thought that MSC would have won easily.



#17 Dhillon

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:32

Williams with Ralf/Montoya. Both won multiple races but inconsistent performances. I feel a top driver could have achieved more.

#18 ClubmanGT

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:37

Bottas in Mercedes. Surely Rosberg or any top driver would have done better.

 

Bottas probably did about as well as any other driver was going to get out of AMG after the Rosberg era. I don't think it would have mattered who you put in the car, the strategies were at times so all over the place that there would have been no driving around it - and that's before you get to the actual machinery itself. I have a hard time believing that was equal. 



#19 Touchdown

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:43

Williams with Ralf/Montoya. Both won multiple races but inconsistent performances. I feel a top driver could have achieved more.

Yup, when one or both were actually on their game you'd see how good those cars were.



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#20 garoidb

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:44

Maybe I am being too harsh but what about the Ferrari line-up of 1983? I understand that Patrick Tambay was signed mid-season in 1982 but was Rene Arnoux really the best possible signing to complete the team? This is partly hindsight, of course, based on their subsequent careers, so I can understand the logic at the time. 


Edited by garoidb, 29 March 2022 - 19:44.


#21 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:45

Maybe I am being too harsh but what about the Ferrari line-up of 1983? I understand that Patrick Tambay was signed mid-season in 1982 but was Rene Arnoux really the best possible signing to complete the team? This is partly hindsight, of course, based on their subsequent careers, so I can understand the logic at the time.


Good suggestion. Didn’t they win the WCC that year?

#22 PlatenGlass

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:45

Ferrari SF70H and SF71H.

 

 

Years are so much better. Most people don't know every model name of every F1 car ever.



#23 MinardiCrashDummy

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:49

Ferrari 2019 underachieved aswell.

 

Won 3 races could/should have easily won 8-10 with better drivers/strategy.

 

Wasn't a great overall car but the monster engine meant once it was ahead and Leclerc had the most poles you couldn't pass it and they blew so many races


Edited by MinardiCrashDummy, 29 March 2022 - 19:54.


#24 HighwayStar

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:51

In recent times I thought the 2020 Racing Point RP20 was good enough to be a comfortable third in the WCC, the car was faster than the McLaren and the 15 point deduction for copying the Mercedes brake ducts shouldn't have cost them a position in the standings. Admittedly both Sergio Perez and Lance Stroll missed races after contracting Covid-19, with Stroll's form in particular suffering after his return from the virus, but Stroll missed a golden opportunity to win a race in Monza and went backwards horribly in the latter stages of the Turkish GP having been leading up to around half distance. If a driver such as Esteban Ocon had been driving the second car rather than Stroll, I think they could have scored significantly more points, more than enough to secure third place overall. Fanciful though this scenario is, I do wonder what might have happened if Max Verstappen had been driving the RP20 - my guess is that it would have won multiple races and the team might have finished as runners up ahead of Red Bull.


Edited by HighwayStar, 29 March 2022 - 19:51.


#25 garoidb

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:53

Good suggestion. Didn’t they win the WCC that year?

 

Yes, they did. Hence a feeling that with a slightly better driver in the Arnoux seat, a drivers championship would have been possible. Alboreto, perhaps. 



#26 Ali623

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:53

Ditto the Williams of that year in the hands of Maldonado - who did occasionally show what speed the car did have - and Bruno Senna.

 

I would say the 2012 Lotus as well, with Alonso or Hamilton at the wheel, that would have been a championship contending car.


Edited by Ali623, 29 March 2022 - 19:54.


#27 eibyyz

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:55

Sad to say, 1993 McLaren MP4/8.  Unless Ford gave Senna a better engine than Andretti, which I doubt.    


Edited by eibyyz, 29 March 2022 - 19:55.


#28 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 19:56

In recent times I thought the 2020 Racing Point RP20 was good enough to be a comfortable third in the WCC, the car was faster than the McLaren and the 15 point deduction for copying the Mercedes brake ducts shouldn't have cost them a position in the standings. Admittedly both Sergio Perez and Lance Stroll missed races after contracting Covid-19, with Stroll's form in particular suffering after his return from the virus, but Stroll missed a golden opportunity to win a race in Monza and went backwards horribly in the latter stages of the Turkish GP having been leading up to around half distance. If a driver such as Esteban Ocon had been driving the second car rather than Stroll, I think they could have scored significantly more points, more than enough to secure third place overall. Fanciful though this scenario is, I do wonder what might have happened if Max Verstappen had been driving the RP20 - my guess is that it would have won multiple races and the team might have finished as runners up ahead of Red Bull.

it depends on bad luck too. Stroll was taken out a few times, Checo was taken out by Max in Portugal, and even at their only win - Checo was taken out on the first lap and had to come back from dead last

the team made some bad pit stop calls also...

 

you don't just need a car to win - you need a car, driver and team capable of winning. They were a midfield team and kept acting like one



#29 Astandahl

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:00

Ferrari 2019 underachieved aswell.

 

Won 3 races could/should have easily won 8-10 with better drivers/strategy.

 

Wasn't a great overall car but the monster engine meant once it was ahead and Leclerc had the most poles you couldn't pass it and they blew so many races

8 -10??? How?



#30 Nemo1965

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:00

The Ligier of 1992. Alain Prost tested the car before the season and was reputedly seconds faster than regular driver Thierry Boutsen.

#31 BCNF1

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:01

Ferrari SF70H and SF71H.

Put Hamilton, Max or Leclerc of today in that second car and its easy WCC even with SF70H reliability issues that occured at the end for Seb.

Seb was good with SF70H, but Kimi was just underwhelming. I reckon that in these 2 years, with Alonso or Hamilton at the wheel, Ferrari would have taken at least one title in 2 years (WCC or WDC)

This and the Ferrari's of 2007/2008 would of easily won the titles with Alonso/Hamilton.



#32 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:02

2009 Toyota. Glock and Trulli were bang average at absolute best.

#33 BCNF1

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:05

Bottas in Mercedes. Surely Rosberg or any top driver would have done better.

 

Weird post, i think Bottas did great and they had Hamilton in the other car, and won several championships back to back, the car was far from wasted, and was used as was required to win the championships by both drivers...



#34 Radion

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:05

The 2007, 2008 and 2009 Ferraris. Driver pairing Massa and Raikkonen.

 

2007 Renault. Driver pairing Fisichella and Kovalainen.

 

 

Great pick. Always thought that MSC would have won easily.

What? They won two WCCs in 07 and 08. The 09 car was nowhere near the Brawn or the RedBull. Kimi still managed a win in Spa?!



#35 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:06

Ferrari 2019 underachieved aswell.

Won 3 races could/should have easily won 8-10 with better drivers/strategy.

Wasn't a great overall car but the monster engine meant once it was ahead and Leclerc had the most poles you couldn't pass it and they blew so many races


Lol wuttttt

Ferrari had very good qualifying car but the race pace was at best second and often third, even in the races they won with perhaps the exception of Singapore.

#36 HighwayStar

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:07

Ditto the Williams of that year in the hands of Maldonado - who did occasionally show what speed the car did have - and Bruno Senna.

 

In fairness to Maldonado, I think he successfully extracted speed from the 2012 Williams, but aside from his superb victory in Spain and fifth in Abu Dhabi, he was terrible at converting his obvious speed into points, with his other 18 races yielding a paltry return of 10 points, a very poor return when you consider that the significantly slower Bruno Senna scored 31 points across the season. If Williams had wanted to finish one or two places higher in the WCC standings and score more regular points, they would have been better off with a slower but more reliable driver instead of Maldonado, but they probably wouldn't have won the Spanish GP, so his caution-to-the-wind approach did pay off spectacularly in that one glorious race.



#37 MinardiCrashDummy

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:14

Lol wuttttt

Ferrari had very good qualifying car but the race pace was at best second and often third, even in the races they won with perhaps the exception of Singapore.

A good qualifying car was all they needed, they just screwed up multiple races.

 

They were not going to win the championship but it would have been far closer.



#38 ARTGP

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:16

2011 Renault R31 - James Allison designed. Name a more uninspiring duo than Petrov and Heidfeld (who was replaced by B. Senna)

 

2012 Lotus E20 - Kimi had a shot at the title, won a race, in spite of being past his prime. Grosjean kept crashing. 



#39 as65p

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:18

Mansell returned in 1991,  won 5 races and ended second in the championship after Senna .

Yet was outperformed by that very same Patrese for the first races of the season.



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#40 ARTGP

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:18

2009 Toyota. Glock and Trulli were bang average at absolute best.

 

Stop the Trulli slander! (lol). He was a good qualifier atleast. 



#41 HighwayStar

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:21

2007 Renault. Driver pairing Fisichella and Kovalainen.

 

I agree this was a rather underwhelming driver pairing for the reigning world champion team, but I'm not convinced that the Renault R27 was a sufficiently competitive car to allow the team to improve on its WCC position of third (effectively fourth in reality as McLaren were excluded). Having used Michelin rubber throughout the tyre war era, going back to 2001 when the team still ran under the Benetton name, the team struggled to adapt to Bridgestones, which I believe adversely affected the car's handling, making the early races difficult for rookie Kovalainen in particular. This left them trailing not only the pace-setting Ferrari and McLaren, but also BMW Sauber, which restricted them to lower points finishes in most races. I find it interesting that in 2008, with Fernando Alonso returning, Renault continued to struggle in the first half of the season and only enjoyed something of a return to form later that year when the car had been significantly improved. Considering this, I think even with Alonso in the car it's unlikely that Renault would have picked up enough extra points to come close to overtaking BMW Sauber, which with the fairly strong pairing of Nick Heidfeld and Robert Kubica scored almost exactly double their points tally (101 to Renault's 51).



#42 ARTGP

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:21

Ferrari SF70H and SF71H.

Put Hamilton, Max or Leclerc of today in that second car and its easy WCC even with SF70H reliability issues that occured at the end for Seb.

 

In what universe does that SF70H win a title against the Merc PU, let alone Hamilton driving the Merc....Do we need to play back the tapes when Vettel pulled out of Ham's slipstream at Spa that year?  :rotfl:

 

 

SF71H is an interesting one. If we assume Hamilton was driving it, then there would have been a power vacuum at Merc likely to have been filled by someone like Alonso. Ferrari's late season development flop would have ruined it regardless.


Edited by ARTGP, 29 March 2022 - 20:24.


#43 as65p

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:24

Williams with Ralf/Montoya. Both won multiple races but inconsistent performances. I feel a top driver could have achieved more.

Might also be that with only one top driver instead of the two of similar speed, they could have won that year. Not advocating a 1-2 driver structure per se, but in close title fights it might make a difference to the teams overall success.



#44 ARTGP

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:27

Williams with Ralf/Montoya. Both won multiple races but inconsistent performances. I feel a top driver could have achieved more.

 

That BMW V10 was the bees knees. I have no idea how they didn't achieve more. 


Edited by ARTGP, 29 March 2022 - 20:27.


#45 TheAviator

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:27

In what universe does that SF70H win a title against the Merc PU, let alone Hamilton driving the Merc....Do we need to play back the tapes when Vettel pulled out of Ham's slipstream at Spa that year? :rotfl:


SF71H is an interesting one. If we assume Hamilton was driving it, then there would have been a power vacuum at Merc likely to have been filled by someone like Alonso. Ferrari's late season development flop would have ruined it regardless.

In universe where Vettel is leading championship before double DNF in Singapore and crash against his team mate while starting from pole? Then spark plug issue in Malaysia, where he started from 20th and would certainly be on pole...then Japan DNF...As I said, WCC with top driver instead of Kimi in another car was on cards. That car had best chassis of the year and some 15hp missing on Merc. Its not that engine was bad, car just wasnt exactly great on certain types of circuits because of high rake and short wheelbase.

#46 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:27

2011 Renault R31 - James Allison designed. Name a more uninspiring duo than Petrov and Heidfeld (who was replaced by B. Senna)

 

2012 Lotus E20 - Kimi had a shot at the title, won a race, in spite of being past his prime. Grosjean kept crashing. 

 

2011 - the car had no further potential to develop. Early in the season both Heidfeld and Petrov were on the podium. Heidfeld slightly underperformed, but didn't deserve to be sacked (and was certainly better than Senna as history proved).



#47 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:28

I think the 1983 Ferrari is the best example of a "wasted" car in this regard.


Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 29 March 2022 - 20:28.


#48 boomn

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:29

2009 Toyota. Glock and Trulli were bang average at absolute best.

I know Toyota had big financial reasons for leaving, but I can't help but wonder if better results and more global attention from having faster and more exciting drivers could have made it hard for them to quit and leave their investment behind.



#49 Sterzo

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:32

Surely the answer to this question is: "every car that didn't have the best two drivers in it."  So pretty much everything except various McLarens with Prost and Senna or Hamilton and Alonso on board.



#50 keeppari

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Posted 29 March 2022 - 20:35

2007 McLaren. Literally wasted by a bad pairing of great drivers.