38 replies to this topic

[jurlich]

Hi all, I just wonder why FIA didn't resolve problem with this VSC during the race, as we all saw how easily Checo lost his P1. In my opinion, the rule should says:"When VSC appears, pitlane is automaticity closed for all cars, until the last car cross the finish/start line." <--- In this way everyone on the grid who is behind finish/start line cant go to the pitbox and can't gain positions, as we saw in last race. Quite simply and powerful solution. What do you think about that?

[Paa]

Hi all, I just wonder why FIA didn't resolve problem with this VSC during the race, as we all saw how easily Checo lost his P1. In my opinion, the rule should says:"When VSC appears, pitlane is automaticity closed for all cars, until the last car cross the finish/start line." <--- In this way everyone on the grid who is behind finish/start line cant go to the pitbox and can't gain positions, as we saw in last race. Quite simply and powerful solution. What do you think about that?

 

1. It is called SC, if you talk about the Perez incident.

 

2. It was like that around 10 years ago, I can't remember exactly when.

 

3. Still unfair somewhat, because SC collects cars into 1 bunch. So before / during SC you can make a pitstop and only lose 0-1-2-3 positions. After SC the field is together, you'll end up last.

[Hrco42]

How about at the end of (V)SC, their positions are reset to what they were the lap before the (V)SC came out. Same as red flag.

[Paa]

How about at the end of (V)SC, their positions are reset to what they were the lap before the (V)SC came out. Same as red flag.

 

So somebody changes the tyre during SC, drops back from 1st to 6th and then he gets reset to 1st?

[PistolPete]

Hi all, I just wonder why FIA didn't resolve problem with this VSC during the race, as we all saw how easily Checo lost his P1. In my opinion, the rule should says:"When VSC appears, pitlane is automaticity closed for all cars, until the last car cross the finish/start line." <--- In this way everyone on the grid who is behind finish/start line cant go to the pitbox and can't gain positions, as we saw in last race. Quite simply and powerful solution. What do you think about that?

I think its maybe not desired to avoid these situations of random shuffling. It creates a good show.

[smitten]

Hi all, I just wonder why FIA didn't resolve problem with this VSC during the race, as we all saw how easily Checo lost his P1. In my opinion, the rule should says:"When VSC appears, pitlane is automaticity closed for all cars, until the last car cross the finish/start line." <--- In this way everyone on the grid who is behind finish/start line cant go to the pitbox and can't gain positions, as we saw in last race. Quite simply and powerful solution. What do you think about that?

At the same race last year there was another controversial incident where somebody changed tyres under SC, lost track position, then a Red Flag was thrown, and the (then) leader got a free stop.

 

There is not a good answer for tyre changes during these race neutralisations.   All solutions are artificial to some extent.

 

I have always been a fan of closing the pitlane under SC - if we are neutralising the race for safety, why do we let 20 drivers pile into the pits with all the pit crew etc which is a particularly dangerous activity.  I've never agreed with it (except in the refuelling era where there was a provable need for a car to bx)

[Paa]

 

I have always been a fan of closing the pitlane under SC - if we are neutralising the race for safety, why do we let 20 drivers pile into the pits with all the pit crew etc which is a particularly dangerous activity.  

 

I'm with you in principle, but the above can also be really unfair. What if you lead the race by 30s so you can easily pit and come back to 1st. Suddenly SC comes in, pit is closed. SC collects the cars in one bunch so if you pit after that you'll come back to last. 

[Zoe]

Just make sure you're last in line, then you won't loose any places 

[Bartonz20let]

Sports head on - close the pit lane

Show head on - promote the random

F1 is more a show than sport so...

[Hrco42]

So somebody changes the tyre during SC, drops back from 1st to 6th and then he gets reset to 1st?

Yes. Because everyone else can also change tyres and get their place back. Though I see how that wouldn't help in Perez case.

Then simply close the pit lane

[TheFish]

If the pits were closed during the SC then Perez is basically guaranteed victory. He'd have a ~20 second lead after the 3 in front of him had pitted and the race would have been boring.

 

SC and VSC can make things more random and more exciting and that should be encouraged (as long as the RD doesn't change the rules on the fly...)

[IrvTheSwerve]

There's been a lot of complaining and threads regarding the unfairness of safety cars over the last year or two...am I the only one that loves the way it can spice up a race? 

 

My eyes light up when a SC is put out (during a boring race, particularly). It feels like it's taboo to say that - I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel like that. It's all part of racing, especially modern racing where safety is paramount.

 

I know that they can spoil races when we have crashes every 10 minutes but that is very rare.

 

I do agree that the pitlane should probably be closed during a VSC though - especially as we don't need refuelling. 

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 30 March 2022 - 09:40.

[dia6olo]

Unfortunately they are aware that without aids like DRS and safety cars, F1 would for the most part be a procession.

The safety cars certainly serve a purpose from a safety point of view but they also clearly distort many a result while adding entertainment and it seems that to the powers that be entertainment wins regardless of it being unfair.

It's exactly the same with DRS, it was rightly brought in to serve a purpose but is now at least in 2022 overkill, will they alter it? Reluctantly I suspect for the same reasons as the safety cars. It needs to be reduced now as the cars in front have no chance of defending but once again it entertains at the expense of fair racing.

[PayasYouRace]

Closing the pit lane doesn't work. It just swaps who loses out, and they usually end up losing out by more.

[noikeee]

Closing the pits is avoided as much as possible, because cars need to go there to fix issues. Imagine the tyre is so worn it's about to blow up.

[Anderis]

Closing the pit lane doesn't work. It just swaps who loses out, and they usually end up losing out by more.

Yeah, I love how people think that closing the pit lane will make things less random. Clearly those people haven't thought through what happens when the car behind you pits for fresh tyres, then the 30 second gap between you and them is erased with SC/red flag but you're unable to change your tyres.

[smitten]

Yeah, I love how people think that closing the pit lane will make things less random. Clearly those people haven't thought through what happens when the car behind you pits for fresh tyres, then the 30 second gap between you and them is erased with SC/red flag but you're unable to change your tyres.

Sorry, but it isn't about which is more or less random, but which is safer.  Why is the SC on track at all (or VSC)?  As recently as 3 races ago we had RC who couldn't count lapped cars properly because they were (rightly) focussed on the incident that caused the SC in the first place.  Not trying to open that particular wound, but why if RC is rightly focussed on the incident do we allow a pile-in to the pits?   A particularly dangerous part of the race-track.

 

As another example, as recently as last race RC couldn't/wouldn't address a SC line violation from this very pile-in - presumably because they were focussed elsewhere.

[Anderis]

Sorry, but it isn't about which is more or less random, but which is safer.

For you maybe. I'm referring to opinions I have read. Just because you may have a different one doesn't mean the other have never been expressed.

[FortiFord]

Yeah, I love how people think that closing the pit lane will make things less random. Clearly those people haven't thought through what happens when the car behind you pits for fresh tyres, then the 30 second gap between you and them is erased with SC/red flag but you're unable to change your tyres.

 

The thread title is for VSC though. I think closing the pitlane for VSC is a good idea. It prevents drivers from taking a cheap pit stop. 

[LiJu914]

Sorry, but it isn't about which is more or less random, but which is safer.  Why is the SC on track at all (or VSC)?  As recently as 3 races ago we had RC who couldn't count lapped cars properly because they were (rightly) focussed on the incident that caused the SC in the first place.  Not trying to open that particular wound, but why if RC is rightly focussed on the incident do we allow a pile-in to the pits?   A particularly dangerous part of the race-track.

 

As another example, as recently as last race RC couldn't/wouldn't address a SC line violation from this very pile-in - presumably because they were focussed elsewhere.

 

Because of hazard on the race track, not the pitlane....

[Sam1]

Hi all, I just wonder why FIA didn't resolve problem with this VSC during the race, as we all saw how easily Checo lost his P1. In my opinion, the rule should says:"When VSC appears, pitlane is automaticity closed for all cars, until the last car cross the finish/start line." <--- In this way everyone on the grid who is behind finish/start line cant go to the pitbox and can't gain positions, as we saw in last race. Quite simply and powerful solution. What do you think about that?

I like your argument mate but it's not really one as it's called racing even massi will tell you this

[le chat noir]

Much of the value and interest in a motor race is the changing conditions. There's no need to sanitise it. Tidy up one area and another will have an unexpected outcome.

 

We don't (yet) fret about rain in one area of the track adversely affecting the first car(s) to go through those conditions, nor about oil spills, another car spinning ahead of you requiring avoiding action, a corner marker coming loose affecting one car over others, a beaver on track, a priest on track, a bird strike, a puncture from debris.

 

The lottery of open or closed pitlanes, you're proximity to the pitlane at the time of a changed condition when pitting would be advantageous, etc - all that and more is what you need to overcome to win. There's always been an element of chance. If you're solely interested in seeing the faster driver+car combination circulate, it wouldn't make for such an interesting spectacle.

 

The same is true for boat racing, horse racing, cycling, triathlon. It's not only about beating the competition, but also the ever-changing conditions. Sometimes (heck usually) even the rules are part of those changing conditions.

 

 

On VSC pitting, if you're in dire need of tyres and the VSC is lifted just after you pass the entry after circulating for 5 laps beyond your pit window, you're equally coming unstuck as if you'd pitted before the VSC and others pitted during.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Closing the pit lane doesn't work. It just swaps who loses out, and they usually end up losing out by more.

 

 

Yeah, I love how people think that closing the pit lane will make things less random. Clearly those people haven't thought through what happens when the car behind you pits for fresh tyres, then the 30 second gap between you and them is erased with SC/red flag but you're unable to change your tyres.

 

Eh?

 

During a virtual safety car, how does it do anything other than neutralise the race? If people cannot pit, the race starts back up again as normal and everyone is in the same position with the same gaps - how does anyone lose out there? Their pit window might change by a lap or so but so would everyone's. 

 

Genuine question, I'm not quite sure how anyone loses out if the pitlane is closed during VSC...certainly not to the extent of someone going from a leader to 30 secs behind the leader.

[MikeTekRacing]

Big Checo fan here - closing the pits is equally unfair for those that hadn't pitted yet.

SC is what it is - part of racing. And when you lead (ahem, AD'21) it can suck.

it's the same for everyone

[ARTGP]

Eh?

 

During a virtual safety car, how does it do anything other than neutralise the race? If people cannot pit, the race starts back up again as normal and everyone is in the same position with the same gaps - how does anyone lose out there? Their pit window might change by a lap or so but so would everyone's. 

 

Genuine question, I'm not quite sure how anyone loses out if the pitlane is closed during VSC...certainly not to the extent of someone going from a leader to 30 secs behind the leader.

 

 

What if someone does the entire race on 1 set of tires (some crazy strategy), and then we get a VSC, pitlane closed situation, for the last 4 laps that means they would not be able to pit to satisfy the 2 tire rule.

 

Yes I know that is an extremely fringe scenario with small likelihood of occuring. 

[jurlich]

To be clear: I thought just about one lap during VSC, not SC, because during VSC you need to stay in delta and decrease your speed up to 40%, so as someone mention it, at this period of time (VSC) you get a cheap pit and you can gain a position just because you were in right place at the right moment. You would never know for how long VSC appears, BUT if you close the pitlane as I mention (till the last car of the first lap of VSC) and then pitlane will be open again, than teams would have a chance to put some strategy: they could risk of pit - lost some positions, but to be on the fresh tires, or stay on the track and see what would happen (SC, red flag, the end of VSC).

[LiJu914]

I don´t get your reasoning for closing the pitlane just for the first lap under VSC-conditions.

You get the same "cheap" pit stop in the 2nd, 3rd, nth lap as well, as long as there is the VSC preventing drivers from going at full speed on track, while you´re pitting. Nothing changes.

Edited by LiJu914, 30 March 2022 - 19:16.

[Afterburner]

I've talked about closing the pits during all SC's before but some don't like the luck factor of being able to gamble on a pitlane closure to take track position. Closing them for every VSC makes 100% sense to me and I don't know why it's not done; if you have to pit for emergency reasons it's whatever your stop is plus a 30-second hold. Job done.

[FortiFord]

What if someone does the entire race on 1 set of tires (some crazy strategy), and then we get a VSC, pitlane closed situation, for the last 4 laps that means they would not be able to pit to satisfy the 2 tire rule.

Yes I know that is an extremely fringe scenario with small likelihood of occuring.

Have we ever had a VSC last that long (genuine questions) ?

[IrvTheSwerve]

What if someone does the entire race on 1 set of tires (some crazy strategy), and then we get a VSC, pitlane closed situation, for the last 4 laps that means they would not be able to pit to satisfy the 2 tire rule.

 

Yes I know that is an extremely fringe scenario with small likelihood of occuring. 

Indeed that could potentially happen but that wasn’t my question really…

 

You could equally have a red flag now and race stopped at a particular distance, with a driver not having pitted for tyres…

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 30 March 2022 - 19:53.

[PayasYouRace]

I've talked about closing the pits during all SC's before but some don't like the luck factor of being able to gamble on a pitlane closure to take track position. Closing them for every VSC makes 100% sense to me and I don't know why it's not done; if you have to pit for emergency reasons it's whatever your stop is plus a 30-second hold. Job done.

 

I suppose there's the option of only closing the pit exit. So damaged cars can return to the pits for repairs without fear of penalty, but they then have to wait at the exit.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Have we ever had a VSC last that long (genuine questions) ?

I’ve no idea…but I’d have thought if something needed 4 VSC laps, you’d expect that it was a big enough of an incident to warrant a full SC.

[LiJu914]

E.g. VSC was at one time deployed for 4 laps @Jeddah 2021.

[MattK9]

If you box under VSC then pit crew need to wait 5 seconds or more before touching the car.

Also the first lap of a SC before the leader is picked up by the SC, everyone has to drive to a delta which means it is effectively a VSC, so I would apply the same +5sec rules.

[jee]

There should be a "wait penalty" if you pit under SC or VSC before the pit crews would be allowed to work on the car.

[MikeTekRacing]

To be clear: I thought just about one lap during VSC, not SC, because during VSC you need to stay in delta and decrease your speed up to 40%, so as someone mention it, at this period of time (VSC) you get a cheap pit and you can gain a position just because you were in right place at the right moment. You would never know for how long VSC appears, BUT if you close the pitlane as I mention (till the last car of the first lap of VSC) and then pitlane will be open again, than teams would have a chance to put some strategy: they could risk of pit - lost some positions, but to be on the fresh tires, or stay on the track and see what would happen (SC, red flag, the end of VSC).

but you would still get a cheap pit stop, as the gaps after 1 lap are roughly the same and the speed is 40% lower. 

[Augurk]

Thought it would be the solution many times for a SC situation but always come around to concluding it would still be unfair, but then against those who hadn't pitted yet as there are now any gap that had been built up has been neutralized. Or any loss incurred by someone pitting before has been neutralized either. 

 

Closing the pit lane during a VSC seems less unfair, but it would still create a random effect. Everybody loses tire temperature during VSC. I think it's much worse to lose tire temp when the tires are old rather than new. Plus VSC is inherently unfair depending on where cars are when it starts and when it ends. 

[chrcol]

For VSC you could close pit and effectively hold things how they were.

 

SC its more complicated and one of the reasons I dont like SC, under SC if you close pit, the late pitters lose as they lose their gap ahead. If you allow people to pit, the early pitters lose as late pitters get cheaper pit stop.

[ARTGP]

There should be a "wait penalty" if you pit under SC or VSC before the pit crews would be allowed to work on the car.

 

If there is going to be any change at all to the system, this is the only thing I would support. I'm fine with it, as it is, because it's just part of luck and it's rarely abused (bar Singapore '08), but if we want true neutralization, don't let time be won on the pitstops under SC/VSC.