50 replies to this topic

[nexfast]

I was looking at two new models I just bought to increase my 1/43 Grand Prix miniature collection, two superb Ensign of 1978 vintage, one as driven by Derek Daly and other as driven  by Harald Ertl and a question came to my mind: how do I pronounce the word? En-sin or en-sign? A rapid search on the net gave me different results, apparently US preferring the former and UK the latter. Is that so? I guess there are here a number of native speakers who are contemporary of the cars and can enlighten me. Grateful in advance.

[Weaverbird]

IF MO NUNN WERE ALIVE, HE'D SAY EN-SIGN !

 

A friend of mine, Colin Vandervell, drove for them in F3 (the 'Potterton' orange Ensign).

 

FYI:  an 'Ensin' is an officer of the lower ranks for the US Navy!!

 

I think Derek Daly is commentating in the USA, where he's been for many years.  I expect his Irish accent suits the Americans very well.

[Michael Ferner]

For what it's worth, in Germany it was always pronounced En-sign.

[Doug Nye]

In my part of England it's always been 'En-sign' and I am happy that Mo - who came from about mid-way oop north - used 'En-sign' as well.

 

DCN

[Charlieman]

The letter construction IGN may be pronounced like Y in English. Malign. Blight. Not always. Malignant, where the G is pronounced.

 

And Y in English is rarely pronounced Y. MY word it's complicated and messY.

 

Ensign rhymes with tine as in forks. Brine as in salt water.

 

But forever, Ensign means Walsall, which almost rhymes in English with Warsaw.

[Charlieman]

In my part of England it's always been 'En-sign'

People down south have never been fully liberated but we love to express our Y in the midlands. 

 

Doug, can you help this chap out with a Daly or Earth period photo?

[ReWind]

As far as I understand, "Ensign" in fact meant "N-sign", i.e. the sign of N(unn).
I never considered any other pronunciation.

[Doug Nye]

People down south have never been fully liberated but we love to express our Y in the midlands. 

 

Doug, can you help this chap out with a Daly or Earth period photo?

 

 

Copyright: The GP Library

 

DCN

[Charlieman]

That's what they built with no money. And it was ugly. But if Ensign had money, they acquired looks.

[Charlieman]

Who has been to Walsall?

[Vitesse2]

Who has been to Walsall?

Never been there, but I used to play cards with someone who was born and brought up there. He pronounced it 'Wassull', rhyming with hassle or tassel.

[ensign14]

Who has been to Walsall?

Was educated there, although I barely ever went into Walsall town centre other than to catch the bus back if the usual one was not running.  Funnily enough I was in court there last week.  Working, I hasten to add.  Has a decent art gallery and a lock museum.

[nexfast]

I rather thank you all for the replies before this thread goes south (or north, no idea where Walsall is located) in the best tradition of the Forum. If Mo Nunn called it en-sign, en-sign it is!

[Charlieman]

Did I get the vowel pronunciations right?

 

I have no idea how to pronounce Wassull, with a deep breath, and there aren't enough letters in Ensign to get it wrong.

 

E-N-S-I-G-N

 

It is incredible that one of the UK top suppliers to racing teams gave them the best brake bits in 1976. How Ensign messed it at the end of the season.

[Sterzo]

I rather thank you all for the replies before this thread goes south (or north, no idea where Walsall is located) in the best tradition of the Forum. If Mo Nunn called it en-sign, en-sign it is!

Dae listen ter them wot sez it's up North, it ay, it's in the Midluns ay it? Oi bin thair cuz oi cum frum Wulvramtun, but oi ay bin ther offen cuz woy wud yow?

[Alan Lewis]

I have a sudden yearning for ******* and pays...

Famously, Walsall art gallery's lift announcements are made by Noddy Holder.

Edit: Sooo, the forum software censors my use of the traditional name for the Black Country delicacy? Does this constitute an infringement of my cultural heritage?

Edited by Alan Lewis, 01 April 2022 - 06:24.

[Vitesse2]

I have a sudden yearning for faggots and pays...

Famously, Walsall art gallery's lift announcements are made by Noddy Holder.

Edit: Sooo, the forum software censors my use of the traditional name for the Black Country delicacy? Does this constitute an infringement of my cultural heritage?

Blame the Septics. Part of the default banned words list. [My powers allow me to see what you'd typed - and restore it in the above quote.]

 

Nivver moind, sit yerself down an' 'ave a batch and a kipper tie.

[RCH]

No one yet has actually stated what an Ensign is, here is Wiki's version

 

An ensign is the national flag flown on a vessel to indicate nationality. The ensign is the largest flag, generally flown at the stern (rear) of the ship while in port.

 

Speaking as someone who learned to drive on a Standard Ensign I can quite definitely say that the correct pronounciation is EN SINE, none of these Americanisms, they even managed to pervert the usage of a perfectly good English word so that the censors ban it.

[BRG]

Edit: Sooo, the forum software censors my use of the traditional name for the Black Country delicacy? Does this constitute an infringement of my cultural heritage?

Me too! I mentioned fag-gots as a English delicacy in the Formula Eats thread  but it came out as ******* which made it a bit obscure

[Dipster]

Me too! I mentioned fag-gots as a English delicacy in the Formula Eats thread  but it came out as ******* which made it a bit obscure

 

 

Just another example how our language has words hijacked with traditional meanings of words being changed in popular usage. Gay, wicked and ******* etc. Some offend, some amuse. Just odd to me.

[milestone 11]

Blame Somerfield.

[Alan Lewis]

Since my lunches mostly happen in the North East these days, I had a stottie.

And spent the afternoon wondering what alternative meaning I could give that word that would offend the forum software. It's times like these that we miss Barry Cryer.

[arttidesco]

Given that Walsall is near and or in the Black Country wouldn't the local pronunciation of the ign be more like oi n so local pronunciation
phonetically Enzoin ?

[10kDA]

I blame the boat people and not Americans in general for things like "en-sin" vs "en-sign" (rhymes with enzyme). Nautical folk use words like "yar" and "Arrrr..." though Arrr is possibly a single letter, and Tim could possibly clarify. They use words that describe actions and attitudes to describe the ends of a boat, and instead of saying "right" or "left" it's "starboard" - Why? because that's the board where the stars are kept? - but can't seem to make up their minds about the other side. Is it "larboard" - "labboard" - or "port"? And that last one is a synonym for something that pur-ports to be wine. They call ropes "sheets" but "sheets" are not sails.

Yes, En-sin is a rank in the US Navy. Once again, boat people: The US Navy has both Captain and Commander as separate ranks, yet a Commander can often be a ship's Captain, while remaining at the lower pay scale of Commander. There's also the rank of Petty Officer, which any Lieutenant will tell you is not REALLY an Officer at all. And while the British military uses the term Leftenant, which pretty much accurately conveys the concept of Literally The Last Guy On The List Of Who Is Authorized To Be In Charge While The More Important People Do More Important Stuff, the US military uses the French term which means the same thing. Why? To avoid hurt feelings for US Lieutenants by assuming they won't figure out the translation? And as far as En-sins go, many swab jockeys will equate En-sin the rank = En-sin as the flag in the rear (sorry, STERN) most location = south end of a northbound mule.

[Doug Nye]

Derivation of port and starboard has been well publicised over many years, starboard being related to 'steer bord" with 'bord' meaning the boat's side from which the steering 'board' protruded. Since it was not impossible but certainly inconvenient to risk damage to such an early steering device to come alongside a dock or jetty ('port') that side-to, it was standard practice to come alongside with the 'steer bord' outboard - hence side against the dock or jetty became 'port'.

 

Two things stick in my mind from my nautical past - 'port wine is red" identifies the nav lights, red on left facing forward, green on right - while in response to a direct order a great pal of mine used to carol "Luff your halliards? Oh I'm so sorry - I didn't realise mine were open...".

 

DCN

[Charlieman]

Derivation of port and starboard has been well publicised over many years, starboard being related to 'steer bord" with 'bord' meaning the boat's side from which the steering 'board' protruded. Since it was not impossible but certainly inconvenient to risk damage to such an early steering device to come alongside a dock or jetty ('port') that side-to, it was standard practice to come alongside with the 'steer bord' outboard - hence side against the dock or jetty became 'port'.

That sort of works in terms of Saxon, but wouldn't the other sailors speaking Irish, Scots Gaelic, Norman and the rest have an influence? A few hundred years later, the crew of boats came from Yemen, Somalia, India, Chile, Argentina, use your imagination. All Saxon speakers?

 

Are there other interesting nautical terms?

[Bloggsworth]

Aye - I heard you; Aye Aye - I heard and will obey... Port out starboard home is an urban myth; more likely the boat was moored with the side opposite to the "steer-board" to shore/port, i.e. against the port which eventually became known as "the port side," shortened to Port. At least, that's what I think, I could of course be wrong...

Edited by Bloggsworth, 03 April 2022 - 18:50.

[Charlieman]

Aye - I heard you; Aye Aye - I heard and will obey... Port out starboard home is an urban myth; more likely the boat was moored with the side opposite to the "steer-board" to shore/port, i.e. against the port which eventually became known as "the port side," shortened to Port. At least, that's what I think, I could of course be wrong...

Yes. It's almost as if jetties have a left- or right-hand side where you park. Whichever way, if you are coming in forwards or backwards. Just park on the left please.

[D-Type]

Aye - I heard you; Aye Aye - I heard and will obey... Port out starboard home is an urban myth; more likely the boat was moored with the side opposite to the "steer-board" to shore/port, i.e. against the port which eventually became known as "the port side," shortened to Port. At least, that's what I think, I could of course be wrong...

The story I heard was that in the days of the Raj, in order to be on the cool side through the Red Sea, those in the know asked for cabins on the port side on the way to India and on the starboard side on the way home so they didn't get the afternoon sun.  The P & O classified them as "Port Out, Starboard Home" listed as POSH in their records.  Is that the story you're referring to?

[ensign14]

It is that story, and it's urban myth.  Posh is a Romani word for money.

[FrankB]

Two things stick in my mind from my nautical past - 'port wine is red" identifies the nav lights, red on left facing forward, green on right

DCN

The mnemonic that I grew up with was “a little red port left in the bottle”…

[Charlieman]

Since it was not impossible but certainly inconvenient to risk damage to such an early steering device to come alongside a dock or jetty ('port') that side-to, it was standard practice to come alongside with the 'steer bord' outboard - hence side against the dock or jetty became 'port'.

Maybe a bit daft to mention these things, but boats didn't go into ports or jetties as we would recognise them. The steering device was designed to lift out of the way. 

[404KF2]

Enzyme

[BRG]

Yes, En-sin is a rank in the US Navy. Once again, boat people: The US Navy has both Captain and Commander as separate ranks, yet a Commander can often be a ship's Captain, while remaining at the lower pay scale of Commander. There's also the rank of Petty Officer, which any Lieutenant will tell you is not REALLY an Officer at all.

The Yanks inherited that from the Royal Navy where you could have command of a vessel and be called 'Commander' but you hadn't been promoted to captain. You became a captain when posted to a rated vessel (hence the term post captain). However, all officers in command of a vessel, irrespective of rank, would be addressed as 'captain' as a courtesy whilst on board.

Petty officers were non-commissioned officers - another inheritance from the class-ridden British model where officers (ie. posh types from the landed gentry) received a commission from the monarch, whilst common scum (or enlisted men) could only rise to the rank of ship's master or sailing master - the expert sailor who actually told the posh officers how to sail the ship properly.

A similar arrangement applied to the army and even to the Royal Air Force, where our heroic 'Few' in the Battle of Britain were divided into pilot officers (who went to the right school) and flight sergeants (who were just common oiks). They did the same job, flew the same Spitfires and Hurricanes and got killed just the same way, but the class system was kept safe for posterity

[nca]

Can we get back onto the thread's substance?

My brother moved from aero engineering into motorsport with Mo Nunn's team. (He progressed via Zakspeed to Mazda , to Toyota where he was the team leader of fabrication dealing with Rally Cars, Sports Cars & F1 Cars)

I can assure you that the correct pronounciation, in so far as it is still used by my brother, and at least one other of his Ensign colleagues, was En sign.

 

Doug certainly chose by far the ugliest of the Ensign fleet to illustrate the thread. This one was  conceived when Mo was desperately trying to harvest some downforce. 

 

nca.

Edited by nca, 04 April 2022 - 10:24.

[Doug Nye]

Might I just explain that I didn't choose that photo of the 'ugly' Ensign as might be assumed.  I posted it very quickly in response to a request for an Ensign pic simply because I had been scanning it that very morning...so I happened to know where it was.

 

DCN

[LittleChris]

I quite like the look of the 79 Ensign whereas the first car from 73 - blurgh !

[BrmBoy]

"Walsall began as a small Saxon village. It is first mentioned in the early 11th century. The name Walsall may be derived from the words Walh halh, which means Celt’s valley. In the 5th century AD, Celts lived in England but Saxons from Germany invaded. During the 6th century, they pushed westward and conquered the Celts. Perhaps Walsall was a valley or nook of land where Celts lived. Alternatively, it may have been a halh or small valley belonging to a Saxon called Walla.

At any rate, in the early 13th century Walsall turned into a small market town. From 1220 Walsall had a weekly market. It also had an annual fair. In the Middle Ages fairs were like markets but they were held only once a year. Buyers and sellers would come from all over the West Midlands to attend a Walsall fair. After 1339 Walsall had 2 fairs. By the 14th century, it also had a mayor."

A History of Walsall - Local Histories

The building of racing cars in people’s back garden occurred some time later.

[arttidesco]

I quite like the look of the 79 Ensign whereas the first car from 73 - blurgh !

 

I beg to differ...

 

 

I thought the MN01 was one of the coolest cars on the planet when I first saw it in MotorSports 1973 French GP Report...

 

 

not only that it had a patriotic paint job that was even cooler than the already impossibly cool Lotus 72's but then .....

 

 

when I laid my eyes on the press launch version of the Maki I had naively impossibly high hopes for that too, c'est la vie ;-)

Edited by arttidesco, 08 April 2022 - 20:59.

[LittleChris]

Each to their own, but to me the 73 Ensign looks like someone's found a couple of mid 70's Tamiya kits and produced a mongrel car from them.   What I like about the 79 car is that Mo tried to do something different and it reminded  me of some long ago 1920's ( or earlier ) French effort of which for the life of me I can't remember the name 

[ensign14]

The Voisin C6?

 

[john winfield]

It's all subjective, I know, but I thought that 1979 slab radiator car the ugliest Ensign ever. The 1973 car was striking but its lack of speed, as at Silverstone that year, colours my view of the design. It shouldn't I suppose, but it does. Chris Amon's N176, the neat 1976 F1 car, was very smart but my favourite Ensigns are the 1971/72 F3 cars, as driven by Steve Thompson, Rikki von Opel, Colin Vandervell etc.: very elegant cars.

[AJCee]

I’ll put on record that I always wanted Ensign to do well. However, just like the Wolf WR5, I find the radiator mounting both ugly and slightly alarming. The consequences of a frontal impact in cars of that era wasn’t always great anyway. The thought of hot coolant leaking onto a trapped driver doesn’t make the situation any better.

[10kDA]

I beg to differ...

 

 

I thought the MN01 was one of the coolest cars on the planet when I first saw it in MotorSports 1973 French GP Report...

 

 

not only that it had a patriotic paint job that was even cooler than the already impossibly cool Lotus 72's but then .....

 

 

when I laid my eyes on the press launch version of the Maki I had naively impossibly high hopes for that too, c'est la vie ;-)

I agree, I thought the Ensign was one of the better looking F1 cars of the day. The Maki, well... I will say your pic of the Maki managed to capture its best angle. Not an insignificant feat.

[Doug Nye]

A rather prettier Ensign than in my first GPL offering - 1978.

 

Photo Copyright: The GP Library

 

 

DCN

[LittleChris]

The Voisin C6?

That's the one 👍

Edited by LittleChris, 09 April 2022 - 13:35.

[Charlieman]

A rather prettier Ensign than in my first GPL offering - 1978.

 

When you read histories of teams like McLaren, you can understand how well developed their cars became. Ensign's N176/N177 design, related to its 1975 predecessor, didn't receive such benefits. However it worked well on the Goodyear tyres which benefitted McLaren and pained others like March. It worked well in British national racing and ever since in historics. It's a great design, which met the end of the road in 1978.

 

As I understand, the N179 was an interim design. It could never be a proper wing or ground effects car, but they used an existing platform to build something to keep going. Fittipaldi did a similar thing with the F5A. 

 

After two seasons without points, Marc Surer achieved fourth place at the 1981 Brazilian GP -- and there is a long story about how Marc was in the car that weekend. It was the best ever finish for Ensign.

[10kDA]

A rather prettier Ensign than in my first GPL offering - 1978.

 

Photo Copyright: The GP Library

 

 

 

DCN

Interesting external plumbing on that car. Did they run an additional water radiator in the nose due to air temperature that day?

[arttidesco]

Interesting external plumbing on that car. Did they run an additional water radiator in the nose due to air temperature that day?

Several teams tried running radiators in the nose that were originally designed to run with side radiators cooling, Perhaps the most successful transformation was on the 1977 verson of McLaren M26 with which Master James scored his final three victories.

 

The Lotus 77 made the switch to front radiator layout in 1976 to become the season ending Japanese GP winner. 

 

Shadow's DN8 started with a nose radiator in 1976, then ran the first half of the 1977 season without, but reverted to nose radiator midway through the season just in time for Jones's victory in the Austrian GP.

 

IIRC the thinking was having a front radiator helped improve front end grip to make the Goodyear tyres work, other teams that tried nose mounted radiators included the the aforementioned Fittipaldi with the F5A, Tyrrell with the 1977 version of the P/34, the 1976 version was tried with it before it's debut in Spain, Merzario with his A1 and the privateer RAM March 761's.

Edited by arttidesco, 10 April 2022 - 16:12.

[Michael Ferner]

I first loved the Wolf Mk2 when it appeared in 1978, but Mo Nunn managed to make a pig's ear of the concept. That said, I had always been a big Ensign supporter, probably their biggest fan in Germany

 

I do, however, agree on the MN01 - a big setback after the elegant Formula Threes.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 11 April 2022 - 08:11.