73 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Looks like they are at the back of the grid again - only this time, behind HAAS for what could be the remainder of the season. 

 

Yes I know things can change but Williams have never been a team (in recent history) to climb out from the bottom.

 

I'd hate to lose one of my original teams from when I first started watching F1 - especially since they are one the last privateer outfits in pitlane. But honestly - I do not see them on the grid in 2024 unless there are MAJOR changes to the team.

 

So what happens in the tail end of 2022 and into 2023 with the team if they remain at the back end of the grid all season long?

 

Could Andretti buy them up and jump into F1?

 

They could dump Jost but IMO the issues are far deeper and that would have a minimal effect - in a reverse direction I think.

 

Could they nab Ferrari lumps from 2023 onward (that is assuming Merc does not catch up to Ferrari - which is a huge gamble).

[Lerdes]

It's really dissapointing to watch the Williams decline over the years. But they lost the spirit and the abilities to become better again. Everything has it's time. Now it's time to let go?

[garoidb]

The franchise will continue. It may get bought out by other interests, such as Andretti, but that has essentially already happened once so it does not signify the end. 

[Alfisti]

You already lost the team chief, it is not Williams anymore even though it says that on the tin. They will, eventually be bought again. 

[Pete_f1]

They will go on until VW buy it.

[Anderis]

How long can they go on? With current financial model of F1, probably indefinitely.

 

How long they will? That will depend on Dorilton and whoever comes after them.

 

[SenorSjon]

You already lost the team chief, it is not Williams anymore even though it says that on the tin. They will, eventually be bought again.

In 2-3 decades, we might have two Williams teams, just like the Lotus/Caterham soap.

[Beri]

They will go on until VW buy it.

Announcement tomorrow?

[Spillage]

It does all feel a but liek Tyrrell towards the end. I'm hoping that the name stays around no matter what. Whatever else they are, they're still quite a big grand.

[pacificquay]

You already lost the team chief, it is not Williams anymore even though it says that on the tin. They will, eventually be bought again. 

Ferrari isn’t Ferrari by that metric

[PlatenGlass]

If a team was bought out by an entity called Jost Capito, if you didn't know better you'd probably think it was some company or business consortium. Turns out it's a guy.

Anyway, carry on.

[Anderis]

They will go on until VW buy it.

Actualy the talk of Williams name/team disappearing from F1 is about as old as the one about VW entering.

[mclarensmps]

If a team was bought out by an entity called Jost Capito, if you didn't know better you'd probably think it was some company or business consortium. Turns out it's a guy.

Anyway, carry on.

Williams was not bought by Jost Capito, it's bought by Dorilton Capital, and Jost Capito has ben employed by them to turn the ship around.

It hasn't worked so far. 

Edited by mclarensmps, 01 April 2022 - 01:41.

[teejay]

Under the current financial regs, probably quite some time. With F1 back to selling tickets etc, most teams will be self funded, Nicholas's dad can make up the shortfall. 

[FirstnameLastname]

Yup - Dorilton might not care how successful the team is if they can generate a profit from it regardless of performance.

[FirstnameLastname]

It’s not like anyone is going ‘I’ll be buying less doriltons after that performance last weekend’

[CoolBreeze]

I believe they have a good setup. Assets wise. Someone just needs to buy them, and hit the ground running. 

 

For me, it's entirely the initial management fault for failing to appreciate drivers, designers, partners, and even not responding to change in environment, that brought them to where they are. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

They’ll be around for a while with F1’s current ‘franchise’ model. I don’t think a buyer would change the name of a historic team…but I may be wrong. There would be a massive backlash and negative publicity. Maybe some of these team names should be ‘protected’ in some form, I dunno.

 

Part of me feels like it would have been fitting end to lose the Williams name after the sale of the team and Frank’s death.

[Nemo1965]

They’ll be around for a while with F1’s current ‘franchise’ model. I don’t think a buyer would change the name of a historic team…but I may be wrong. There would be a massive backlash and negative publicity. Maybe some of these team names should be ‘protected’ in some form, I dunno.

 

Part of me feels like it would have been fitting end to lose the Williams name after the sale of the team and Frank’s death.

 

Massive backlash? IMHO, you are really misunderstanding the scope of the average F1-fan. Let me put it this way: if I ask an average F1-fan (I mean globally) for 'a traditional F1-team' they will first mention Ferrari. If I would ask that same fan: 'Who was the founder of Ferrari?', 99 percent would not be able to come up with the name of Enzo. The idea that they would know Ferrari started in the early 20's of last century, or something like that, is laughable.

 

The name 'Williams' only means something, factually, emotionally, historically, to boffins like us who know that Piers Courage gave Frank his first F1-podium. In the UK, perhaps some F1-fans know the first name of the founder of that team. Outside of the UK? Really nobody.

 

Personally, I don't understand Dorilton approach. They have enough assets. They have good enough people. The car looks nice and well engineered. But what marketing and publicity are they actually executing? The nostalgic (but comically misunderstood) 'We are here to keep a historical name alive in F1?' But why then is the car not painted white and with green? What product are they raising the awareness of in the mind of the general public (which makes out 99 percent of the F1-viewers)? Is it possible, as others have said, that the current F1-franchise indeed makes it possible to be in F1 just for the money?

Edited by Nemo1965, 01 April 2022 - 06:55.

[PlatenGlass]

Williams was not bought by Jost Capito, it's bought by Dorilton Capital, and Jost Capito has ben employed by them to turn the ship around.

It hasn't worked so far.

Fair enough. Very similar names though.

I suppose if a company limit themselves to finding a person with a similar name to their company they're not giving themselves much leeway.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 01 April 2022 - 07:34.

[messy]

I mean, they did take a podium last season (I know, I know.....) and Albon wasn't a million miles off points contention last weekend. Latifi, much as he's competent, is not quick. Albon has just had a year out and himself isn't the most experienced. I wouldn't write their 2022 off yet. The car doesn't look that bad. If Haas still had Mick and Mazepin, their current renaissance wouldn't really have happened yet. 

[PayasYouRace]

I’m sure similar questions were asked of Minardi in the mid 1990s. They were in much worse shape than Williams today and of course they’re still around, with a new owner.

 

I think the OP question is born out of the understanding of F1’s 1990s financial expansion which meant backmarker teams were struggling to survive. I don’t think that applies in 2022. With the budget cap and the much more favourable (to the ten teams at least) franchise model F1 currently runs under, I think the team will be safe and will hold value for potential buyers if Dorilton decide they want out.

 

Its sad to see the team stuck at the back of the grid, but they were showing a bit more promise last year and they’re going to have opportunities to turn things around. Admittedly since the team was sold I don’t have the same love for it than I used to. It’s not Sir Frank and Claire, and Sir Patrick’s team any longer,  but the legacy is still there. They’re still the team with the second highest number of constructors championships, and will likely retain that for a short while longer, and have the fourth most wins. Mercedes only overtook them in 2020 and Red Bull have a long way to go.

[lustigson]

Sadly, Williams have now had more seasons outside the top 3 of the WCC (namely 26) than inside it (21), and that's not even including the Frank Williams Racing Cars and Wolf-Williams seasons. 

Edited by lustigson, 01 April 2022 - 08:22.

[Beri]

The point being, is that Williams has all the facilities and know how to get a car on the grid. And it isnt even a bad car. We all can see that the Mercedes engined cars are having troubles. So as much as Williams enjoyed success over the Mercedes engine in 2014 and 2015, it is now having a bad time with it. So that does enlarge the fact that Williams hasnt built a car to beat Goliath quite a bit. But in general it isnt a bad car. It can mingle with the other Mercedes teams and regularly fight them. It is just the fact that one team has to be the slowest team and, sadly, Williams it is.
 
But counting in the fact that FX Demaison joined when the concept of the 2022 car was drawn already, Williams actually having experimented with its philosophy of its car taking it on another direction compared to other teams, the team itself seems to be at ease with the situation, investments have been finalized during last season which simply cant be of great influence on 2022 but rather later on, I cant see any reason to panic. Certainly when it was already clear last season that Williams, with Doriltons investments, were not to be expected to be of great influence in 2022. The 2023 car will be the first car built under complete restructured infrastructure and dito management, as FX now is really gelled in and not having to cope with a 2022 car that was already halfway finished when he joined.
 
When one thinks such immense changes at Williams can have immediate effect from the go, clearly do not understand how F1 does work or how much in a bad state Williams was. Interesting YouTube film to add some context as well. In that film, The Race do add that 2022 will be the first indicator if changes at Williams have gone in the right direction. But it is still early days as the season is only 2 races old and I duly think the right changes have been made. There is a clear structure, a bright set of engineers that have come up with a different take on the rules as the other teams have, and there currently is some low hanging fruit that can be picked to win some easy gains. Ofcourse one would have expected and wanted Williams to be further ahead. But, like Ive said before, the season is only 2 races old and I cant be panicked at this moment. Williams will step forward. Mark my words (and slap me in the face with it if this post doesnt age well at the end of this season).

[kumo7]

By the mid season, Albon will score a point and the situation will change.

[noikeee]

I doubt they're in a situation in which financial survival is at stake. However, the team's name could be at stake. I'm not entirely sure it's a strong enough brand for, whenever Dorilton decides to sell, the new owners will want to keep it.

[kumo7]

Didn't you notice that Williams is now spelled with three "l" s?

[noikeee]

Didn't you notice that Williams is now spelled with three "l" s?

These are some really terrible April Fools attempts man

[BRG]

I doubt they're in a situation in which financial survival is at stake. However, the team's name could be at stake. I'm not entirely sure it's a strong enough brand for, whenever Dorilton decides to sell, the new owners will want to keep it.

The name is an important part of what Dorilton acquired.  It still has some historical significance.  Renaming the team would not enhance its value.  That is why McLaren was still called McLaren, not Dennis Racing, and Ferrari was still called Ferrari and not FIAT GP, after they changed hands from the original owners.  If your team is called Midland or Force India, you can change the name as much as you want, but if the name has resonance, you would be foolish to squander that value.

[FLB]

The name is an important part of what Dorilton acquired.  It still has some historical significance.  Renaming the team would not enhance its value.  That is why McLaren was still called McLaren, not Dennis Racing, and Ferrari was still called Ferrari and not FIAT GP, after they changed hands from the original owners.  If your team is called Midland or Force India, you can change the name as much as you want, but if the name has resonance, you would be foolish to squander that value.

Except fo a sentimental old-timer like myself, I don't know how much of that value is left. Williams's last championship was 25 years ago and its last win 10.

Edited by FLB, 01 April 2022 - 10:57.

[Beri]

The name is an important part of what Dorilton acquired.  It still has some historical significance.  Renaming the team would not enhance its value.  That is why McLaren was still called McLaren, not Dennis Racing, and Ferrari was still called Ferrari and not FIAT GP, after they changed hands from the original owners.  If your team is called Midland or Force India, you can change the name as much as you want, but if the name has resonance, you would be foolish to squander that value.

 

And therefore it is a very important and valuable franchise name. Same like the franchise of the Raiders in NFL, who moved from Oakland to Las Vegas and subsequently changed name from Oakland Raiders to Las Vegas Raiders. Williams its name will remain.

[kumo7]

These are some really terrible April Fools attempts man

 

OK I will stop.

[BRG]

More value that Generic F1 Racing Team would have?

 

Unless you are coming in with a better name (eg Andretti or Penske or Porsche etc) why junk the present one in favour of something new with zero recognition factor?

 

I am still unhappy they renamed Marathon bars as 'Snickers' - what the hell is a Snicker?

Edited by BRG, 01 April 2022 - 11:00.

[Beri]

More value that Generic F! Racing Team would have?

 

Unless you are coming in with a better name (eg Andretti or Penske or Porsche etc) why junk the present one in favour of something new with zero recognition factor?

 

I am still unhappy they renamed Marathon bars as 'Snickers' - what the hell is a Snicker?

 

Some delicious treat that I will grab out of my cupboard now thanks to you.

[kumo7]

Except fo a sentimental old-timer like myself, I don't know how much of that value is left. Williams's last championship was 25 years ago and its last win 10.

 

I believe the world is full with man like you and me. Dorilton needs the eyes to find the right one to sell the team to. It should not only be a bidder with the biggest check. 

[noikeee]

The name is an important part of what Dorilton acquired.  It still has some historical significance.  Renaming the team would not enhance its value.  That is why McLaren was still called McLaren, not Dennis Racing, and Ferrari was still called Ferrari and not FIAT GP, after they changed hands from the original owners.  If your team is called Midland or Force India, you can change the name as much as you want, but if the name has resonance, you would be foolish to squander that value.

 

Whilst Dorilton are owners I think the Williams name is safe. It is clear the historical weight of "Williams" gives the team far more purpose than naming it "Dorilton Racing" or some nonsense like that.

 

Not so sure about the next owners. It'll depend massively on who they sell to (I believe Dorltion are in F1 purely to try to make a profit selling the team). If it's someone that enters F1 to promote their brand - a Red Bull, a Haas or a Benetton, or even a car manufacturer - I don't think the Williams name is safe. I think Williams are a bit different from McLaren, because McLaren are a car manufacturer themselves these days (and even then I'm not 100% sure the McLaren name is safe if bought by a manufacturer, see the debate in the VAG thread). Sure the team's history is glorious, but it's fading into memory and very associated with its original owners.

 

I do hope the Williams name stays because I quite like them myself!

Edited by noikeee, 01 April 2022 - 11:32.

[Jops14]

It wont disappear

Dorilton are venture capitalists, they bought it because the cost cap allied to an historic brand will mean either, annual profits or a mega profit in a few years time when they sell it in (NFL style)

Ultimately, the name will be kept because it comes with a marketing bonus

[Gravelngrass]

The era of independent F1 teams is long gone. It’ll be a manufacturer battle from now on. Williams, and even McLaren’s hopes lie with selling to a large auto manufacturer. It’s a corporate game now.

[Beri]

The era of independent F1 teams is long gone. It’ll be a manufacturer battle from now on. Williams, and even McLaren’s hopes lie with selling to a large auto manufacturer. It’s a corporate game now.

 

No, its a franchise game. And no matter who pours the money in, it is the franchise that counts. Hence why Williams' name will keep on existing into the future. Enter sponsorname here - Williams Dorilton - Powered by Audi

[DeKnyff]

Teams do not disappear any more in a franchise system, but Williams doesn't go on any more. It's Dorlinton Capital. The fact that the name was kept is inmaterial. And after Dorlinton, it will be sold to another parent company.

[pdac]

All these mentions of the historic names in F1 reminds me of Triggers broom (still the same broom after all these years)

[cbo]

Announcement tomorrow?

The VolksWilliams team...

[kumo7]

The era of independent F1 teams is long gone. It’ll be a manufacturer battle from now on. Williams, and even McLaren’s hopes lie with selling to a large auto manufacturer. It’s a corporate game now.

 

Still GENII operated superbly, taking the Lotus back towards where it belongs.

[#99]

More value that Generic F1 Racing Team would have?

 

Unless you are coming in with a better name (eg Andretti or Penske or Porsche etc) why junk the present one in favour of something new with zero recognition factor?

 

I am still unhappy they renamed Marathon bars as 'Snickers' - what the hell is a Snicker?

I feel the same about Opal Fruits, and don't get me started on Cif

[PayasYouRace]

Still GENII operated superbly, taking the Lotus back towards where it belongs.

Lotus belonged slapped on the side of a Benetton in the midfield for a few years before being sold to Renault? Harsh!

[RedRabbit]

The era of independent F1 teams is long gone. It’ll be a manufacturer battle from now on. Williams, and even McLaren’s hopes lie with selling to a large auto manufacturer. It’s a corporate game now.

I've never understood this sentiment? The so-called independent teams have only ever achieved any success with a manufacturer backing, especially Williams. It's always been that way, and I don't see the problem.

F1 is about car racing, and to people in general, it's more interesting to follow teams that also build cars. Red Bull are an exception in that the Red Bull brand is highly involved in almost every motorsports category around the world.

And for all the grief that manufacturers get on here, their involvement is generally quite long term, and actually pay their drivers, as well as funding junior programs.

As for Williams, Dorilton would do well to sell some shares to a manufacturer that would utilize the Williams name in not just a racing team but also limited edition sports models, like Renault did in the 90s.

[Nathan]

The point being, is that Williams has all the facilities and know how to get a car on the grid. And it isnt even a bad car. We all can see that the Mercedes engined cars are having troubles. So as much as Williams enjoyed success over the Mercedes engine in 2014 and 2015, it is now having a bad time with it. 

 

Jeepers creepers, what about 2016-2021??  The worst Merc customer every year since Manor closed shop.  Continues so far into 2022.

[Anderis]

Lotus belonged slapped on the side of a Benetton in the midfield for a few years before being sold to Renault? Harsh!

Even more harsh is calling a team whose driver finished 3rd in WDC as "midfield"!

[PayasYouRace]

Even more harsh is calling a team whose driver finished 3rd in WDC as "midfield"!

 

On average. Let's say upper midfield for 2012.

[William Hunt]

I've never understood this sentiment? The so-called independent teams have only ever achieved any success with a manufacturer backing, especially Williams. It's always been that way, and I don't see the problem.
 

 

I guess you missed the '60s, '70s and early '80s. Williams won world championships with Cosworth power you know.