20 replies to this topic

[sstiel]

Apologies if I'm mistaken about that. My Dad couldn't remember the driver's name, however he said that during the Sixties, there was a driver who lived in the Isle of Man who drove around the island in a hydrogen powered Mini. Anyone on here know who the driver may be and what model of Mini it was? As said, I may be mistaken.

[BRG]

Can't help, but I do recall a guy in the 1970s who regularly rallied a Renault 8 in the south Midlands area, powered by propane (or perhaps butane?) from a cylinder in the front.  Served the useful purpose of evening out the weight balance of the car too.

[arttidesco]

Can't help with the Mini, but I remember a coal powered Capri on Blue Peter 😉

[BRG]

Back in the 1960s, a private individual might perhaps have made a hydrogen generator and could have compressed the gas to a degree.  However,  it would still need a large gas tank, although range was perhaps not a big issue on the IoM!  Maybe a Mini Countryman with a gas tank in the back?  I am assuming that there was no fuel cell technology around back then, and no cryogenic gas storage technology available to the amateur mechanic.

[Bloggsworth]

Back in the 1960s, a private individual might perhaps have made a hydrogen generator and could have compressed the gas to a degree.  However,  it would still need a large gas tank, although range was perhaps not a big issue on the IoM!  Maybe a Mini Countryman with a gas tank in the back?  I am assuming that there was no fuel cell technology around back then, and no cryogenic gas storage technology available to the amateur mechanic.

Was it not a British scientist who invented the hydrogen fuel cell used on the Apollo missions - Might it not have been prototypes being tested?

[BRG]

Might it not have been prototypes being tested?

"Ah, 007, there you are.  How are we going to test this new fuel cell thingy that Q has cooked up?"

 

"Well, M, I reckon if I could parachute into the Isle of Man with it and secretly fit it to an Aston Martin, the KGB would never detect it"

 

"Good idea, but make it a Mini.  I think even the Soviets have figured out your love of Astons by now"

[Charlieman]

Back in the 1960s, a private individual might perhaps have made a hydrogen generator and could have compressed the gas to a degree.  However,  it would still need a large gas tank, although range was perhaps not a big issue on the IoM!  Maybe a Mini Countryman with a gas tank in the back?  I am assuming that there was no fuel cell technology around back then, and no cryogenic gas storage technology available to the amateur mechanic.

Fuel cells were definitely known about at the time, but you'd have to make your own and find a suitable electric motor. So more likely an H2 ICE car.

 

It is still really complicated. H2 is really, really small so the plumbing would have been difficult. Back then, the only way to store H2 was as compressed gas -- no metal hydride storage for 15 years, assuming you had access to a research lab. And whilst the chemical industry around Lancashire and Cheshire created a lot of H2, I can't imagine the ferry operators being delighted at weekly shipping an H2 gas tank alongside the supply of medical O2.

[Charlieman]

How can you make cheap H2? If I knew, I'd sell the answer to one of the big car manufacturers who are experimenting.

 

Industrial H2 is largely a by product of oil or chemical processing. If/when we use less oil as a fuel, there'll be less H2 by product. H2 can be extracted from the air (less than 1% H2) or from water via electrolysis. Assuming that our Mini owner also possessed a windmill, s/he might have generated enough electricity each week to drive a Mini on H2 for a trip to the shops. To use an H2 powered Mini as a daily driver, you'd need a cheap industrial supplier.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm thinking that today's date is April 1st....

[BRG]

I'm thinking that today's date is April 1st....

...but fortunately the OP was made on March 31st!

[sstiel]

Thanks everyone. It may have been a mistaken memory. Thanks for the contributions.   I'm thinking of the long-term as towns, cities ban internal combustion engine cars and the deadline is coming where there will be no new ICE cars.  If a hydrogen powered classic Mini was real, I'd buy it. 

Edited by sstiel, 01 April 2022 - 20:28.

[RS2000]

An electric powered classic MIni is real and, having watched it converted on TV's Vintage Voltage, I certainly would not buy it. The hacking about of structure and the resulting weight distribution of batteries scared me, as I'm sure it would scare anyone who has competed in a Mini.

That's quite apart from yet another misuse of "Vintage" and repeated mispronunciation of Porsche....

[Derwent Motorsport]

Its seems now that anything not made in this century is "Vintage". It's one of those nasty generic terms that has crept in from the colonies where they have not history!

[arttidesco]

Thanks everyone. It may have been a mistaken memory. Thanks for the contributions.   I'm thinking of the long-term as towns, cities ban internal combustion engine cars and the deadline is coming where there will be no new ICE cars.  If a hydrogen powered classic Mini was real, I'd buy it. 

 

I am guessing the 1979 dual fuel BMW 520h might be an alternative, carried liquid hydrogen in a cryogenic tank IIRC ;-) 

Edited by arttidesco, 03 April 2022 - 09:54.

[Myhinpaa]

Francois Isaac de Rivaz patented a hydrogen powered engine in 1807 and fitted to a wooden cart, the hydrogen powered vehicle is still "work in progress"

We only need to give it some more time....... Supposedly good for storing electricity from inefficient wind turbines too, you get roughly 20% of the energy back.

 

Hydrogen can also be used as an alternative to Helium.

 

Edited by Myhinpaa, 03 April 2022 - 12:37.

[Charlieman]

Supposedly good for storing electricity from inefficient wind turbines too, you get roughly 20% of the energy back.

It depends on how you measure efficiency, I suppose.

* Wind turbines operate with an efficiency of 30-45% -- consuming a free resource. For efficiency, or worthwhileness, we need measures of energy in/out over life span.

* Electrolysis of hydrogen is 80% efficient, using an expensive resource which might be used more efficiently.

* ICE efficiency of hydrogen -- as grim as petrol, say 32%.

* Fuel cell efficiency of hydrogen is about 60% -- questionable use for energy storage.

 

Like most energy systems, H2 isn't great for mobile transport. But the world is a funny place and there will be somewhere it makes sense to do strange things.

[Myhinpaa]

Producing Hydrogen requires a lot of energy, which lowers the overall efficiency considerably when used only as a fuel.

As a ingredient in processing it actually makes sense (it's indispensable even), like refining oil, lowering sulphur content in diesel and crude oil etc. 

 

Hydrogen is also a very aggressive agent on components in a fuel system on cars etc. Rumours of a life span as low as 5-6 years for tanks, pipes, hoses ++ (?)

[arttidesco]

Looking for something else just now I found this, it's not a Mini, not got an internal combustion engine nor is it on the Isle of Man, but this amazing Austin A40 was converted by Austrian battery specialist Karl Kordesch in the 1960's.

 

 

Karl developed an alkaline fuel-cell stack with multilayer carbon electrodes and cobalt oxides as catalysts for Union Carbide. He put such a fuel cell into his Austin A40 and was the first person to regularly use an electric car with fuel cells on city roads in Parma, Ohio.

 

 

Having travelled from Athens to London in the back of an A40 when I was a kid I have always had a soft spot for the Farina A40. 

[sstiel]

The fascinating thing is we're looking to the past to protect the future. Is it true that before 1912, electric cars were outselling internal-combustion engined ones?

[Charlieman]

The fascinating thing is we're looking to the past to protect the future. Is it true that before 1912, electric cars were outselling internal-combustion engined ones?

It is certainly true for some markets at the time. In the USA, an EV was a very practical city/town car -- low noise so it didn't frighten horses, rechargeable, weight problems mitigated by low speeds and decent road surfaces. In places where roads existed between towns -- most significantly France -- petrol cars were a practical option for longer journeys.

[Lee Nicolle]

It is certainly true for some markets at the time. In the USA, an EV was a very practical city/town car -- low noise so it didn't frighten horses, rechargeable, weight problems mitigated by low speeds and decent road surfaces. In places where roads existed between towns -- most significantly France -- petrol cars were a practical option for longer journeys.

AND,,, what has changed. Little. Electric cars only make some sense as a metro car. And even then should be paying more road taxes/ registration taxes etc as they are heavier with all those batteries. And do more damage to the roads.

Here in Oz even the governments are starting to realise that electric cars have no future in the greater part of the country as there will never be electricity available.