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Red flag, Melbourne Quali 2022


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:52

A red flag was thrown immediately after Alonso’s heavy crash in qualifying. There were no cars on track behind him (or were there, please jump in if this is wrong), so this meant a number of drivers ahead on track who hadn’t made it across the start finish line lost their potential best laps.

 

What do you think? Should race control factor all that in when deciding what flag to throw or take the view that this is all about safety and it’s appropriate to throw the red and sporting outcomes are not why they are there?



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#2 TheFish

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:53

It’s qualifying, there was no immediate danger. If it was a race it would have been a VSC or SC. There was no safety reason to throw the red flag immediately. It was a mistake to do it immediately and ruin Sainz’s lap.

#3 TradeMark

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:53

They did the right thing. Shouldn't have to be looking at who is setting which sector times where and when. That will only end up in controversial situations.

#4 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:54

They did the right thing. Shouldn't have to be looking at who is setting which sector times where and when. That will only end up in controversial situations.


But qualifying is always, always run in this way. They all go out at the same time. It's grown to be a feature of the format so should be considered in the bigger picture.

#5 ARTGP

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:55

But qualifying is always, always run in this way. They all go out at the same time. It's grown to be a feature of the format so should be considered in the bigger picture.

 

You have a caution to the wind perspective on most things  :lol: .

 

Race control shouldn't have to faff about worrying about who finished their lap when there's been a huge accident.   You want the guys who already passed the accident to keep their laps, but what about those who didn't reach the accident yet? It's more fair this way. 


Edited by ARTGP, 09 April 2022 - 07:57.


#6 noikeee

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:56

Tough luck for Sainz but race director needs to stop playing favourites, good call IMO. If it's a red flag it's a red flag.

#7 Beri

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:57

A red flag is a red flag. Imagine a crash in turn 3, no cars behind the crashed driver, only in front, but the crash being so severe that a medical car has to be deployed. Should you allow drivers to continue over start and finish, they will all eventually bump into the crash site with said medical car. Imagine Grosjeans Bahrain crash to have happened in qualifying. It's something you don't want to have all the cars passing a dangerous situation again.

Red flag is a red flag, in my opinion. Period.

#8 ANF

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:58

There were no cars on track behind him (or were there, please jump in if this is wrong)

Norris was yet to pass the incident (but he was reportedly on a slow lap/in lap).

#9 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:59

Why are we even having this discussion? Surely we don’t want to see race directors deciding who gets to finish their lap and who doesn’t?

#10 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 07:59

Tough luck for Sainz but race director needs to stop playing favourites, good call IMO. If it's a red flag it's a red flag.


Why wasn't it a red flag in the five second window between Alonso crashing and Leclerc crossing the line?

#11 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:00

Why wasn't it a red flag in the five second window between Alonso crashing and Leclerc crossing the line?


Probably because they hadn’t found time to press the button yet?

#12 noikeee

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:00

Why wasn't it a red flag in the five second window between Alonso crashing and Leclerc crossing the line?


How often have you seen an instant red flag? It usually takes a few seconds.

#13 Ali_G

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:00

Why are we even having this discussion? Surely we don’t want to see race directors deciding who gets to finish their lap and who doesn’t?


This is what I think. It would generate even more discussion around potential stewarding interference.

#14 ARTGP

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:01

Why wasn't it a red flag in the five second window between Alonso crashing and Leclerc crossing the line?

 

:rotfl:. Read this one back to yourself. 


Edited by ARTGP, 09 April 2022 - 08:01.


#15 SophieB

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:03

Why are we even having this discussion? Surely we don’t want to see race directors deciding who gets to finish their lap and who doesn’t?

Because it was of mild interest to me despite having no dog in the fight. It’s not compulsory to join in every thread.



#16 ANF

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:04

In qualifying, I think they should try to wait with throwing the red flag if it's obvious that some drivers will be able to complete their fast laps before any other driver has approached the incident. (Unless race control suspect a driver may be injured of course. And unless there's a transponder issue that makes cars disappear from the driver tracker. And...)


Edited by ANF, 09 April 2022 - 08:06.


#17 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:04

:rotfl:. Read this one back to yourself.

No, I get it, but this is what I'm trying to explain. Sometimes it's 5 seconds, sometimes 10, sometimes even longer.

And this is just "how long it takes the race director to find the button"?

So that's the deciding factor? Why does it seem like there is basically no situational awareness exercised?

So had Wittich simply been caught napping today, Sainz would be on the second row. How is that right?

Edited by TomNokoe, 09 April 2022 - 08:05.


#18 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:05

A red flag was thrown immediately after Alonso’s heavy crash in qualifying. There were no cars on track behind him (or were there, please jump in if this is wrong), so this meant a number of drivers ahead on track who hadn’t made it across the start finish line lost their potential best laps.

 

What do you think? Should race control factor all that in when deciding what flag to throw or take the view that this is all about safety and it’s appropriate to throw the red and sporting outcomes are not why they are there?

 

No. Race control should focus on the incident. Looking at what everyone else is doing both wastes time which could be important in an accident, and takes focus off the safety aspect. It also opens up RC to manipulating sessions based on what's going on.

 

Nobody lost anything today because there was enough time for two hot laps after the red flag.



#19 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:06

Because it was of mild interest to me despite having no dog in the fight. It’s not compulsory to join in every thread.


I don’t mind people opening a debate. I just think you haven’t really thought it through is all... ;)

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#20 lewislorenzo

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:06

Seems everything warrants a red flag now…especially in practice and qualifying

#21 noikeee

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:07

No, I get it, but this is what I'm trying to explain. Sometimes it's 5 seconds, sometimes 10, sometimes even longer.

And this is just "how long it takes the race director to find the button"?

So that's the deciding factor? Why does it seem like there is basically no situational awareness exercised?

So had Wittich simply been caught napping today, Sainz would be on the second row. How is that right?


It's called motor racing, Tom.

Safety car can come out at any moment. Can ruin or make anyones race. How is that right

People can crash into you. How is that right

Your car can fail. How is that right

Your team might **** up a pitstop. How is that right

Your strategy might turn out rubbish. How is that right

It might rain at a bad time. How is that right

Etc

#22 SophieB

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:08

I don’t mind people opening a debate. I just think you haven’t really thought it through is all...  ;)

I don’t have a strong view at all because I am not interested in Sainz (no offence, Carlos) but I was interested in the brief discussion in the quali thread, so here we are. 



#23 Cyanide

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:09

No, I get it, but this is what I'm trying to explain. Sometimes it's 5 seconds, sometimes 10, sometimes even longer.

And this is just "how long it takes the race director to find the button"?

So that's the deciding factor? Why does it seem like there is basically no situational awareness exercised?

So had Wittich simply been caught napping today, Sainz would be on the second row. How is that right?

There is always collateral damage in SC, VSC, red flag decisions. Today it happened to be Sainz. That doesn't mean the procedure is incorrect.



#24 Broekschaap

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:10

No, I get it, but this is what I'm trying to explain. Sometimes it's 5 seconds, sometimes 10, sometimes even longer.

And this is just "how long it takes the race director to find the button"?

So that's the deciding factor? Why does it seem like there is basically no situational awareness exercised?

So had Wittich simply been caught napping today, Sainz would be on the second row. How is that right?

I wouldn't mind all lap times cancelled starting from the moment the incident started instead of when the button was pushed. It seems a bit random to cancel the laptimes for the drivers who where in front of the incident but not those who cross the finish line before buttons are pushed. I wouldn't go the other way around and have red flags depend on where drivers are on track.



#25 krapmeister

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:12

No, I get it, but this is what I'm trying to explain. Sometimes it's 5 seconds, sometimes 10, sometimes even longer.

And this is just "how long it takes the race director to find the button"?

So that's the deciding factor? Why does it seem like there is basically no situational awareness exercised?

So had Wittich simply been caught napping today, Sainz would be on the second row. How is that right?

There's a specific phrase for this - it's called 'sh!t happens'

Edited by krapmeister, 09 April 2022 - 08:13.


#26 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:13

Throw the flag immediately, always caution first.



#27 TheFish

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:15

A red flag is a red flag. Imagine a crash in turn 3, no cars behind the crashed driver, only in front, but the crash being so severe that a medical car has to be deployed. Should you allow drivers to continue over start and finish, they will all eventually bump into the crash site with said medical car. Imagine Grosjeans Bahrain crash to have happened in qualifying. It's something you don't want to have all the cars passing a dangerous situation again.

Red flag is a red flag, in my opinion. Period.


If Alonso had crashed like Grosjean in Bahrain then the red flag would have come out quicker than it did today. Every incident is different. If this was in a race it’s not a red flag. There was no danger.

#28 TheFish

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:16

Throw the flag immediately, always caution first.


Absolute nonsense. Throw a red flag immediately every time someone goes off the circuit? Safety first!

#29 Ben1980

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:18

If after a big crash the red flag isn't raised, and then another big crash happens, does that cause difficulties with medical cars etc?

#30 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:18

The race officials should be all over the incident when it happens and focused on understanding thr best course of action.

What other cars do is not and should not be their problem. When they do decide a red flag is needed, they should press that button

Simple, no favours, no discussions

#31 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:19

It's called motor racing, Tom.

Safety car can come out at any moment. Can ruin or make anyones race. How is that right

People can crash into you. How is that right

Your car can fail. How is that right

Your team might **** up a pitstop. How is that right

Your strategy might turn out rubbish. How is that right

It might rain at a bad time. How is that right

Etc

I don't think this falls into the "it's just how it is" category, because race control (clue is in the name) should have full control over this and be able to put something in place.

I understand the argument about prioritising safety, but days like today (and there have been plenty more) go so far as to negatively affect the competition.

I said in the build up thread that there needs to be a half way house between VSC/Red flag to stop the needless disruption of sessions, and I think too there needs to be something similar here.

A track condition whereby everything behind an incident is under yellow/red flag, and everything ahead is under green. It would be very easy to implement based on marshal posts and timing loops. Exclusively for qualifying.

As soon as you cross start/finish you would be inside the incident zone, easy.

Edited by TomNokoe, 09 April 2022 - 08:21.


#32 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:22

The red flag is thrown for anything these days - but Massa and Bianchis accidents have probably meant that F1 will leave itself open to a bunch of lawsuits if they aren’t seen to have made remedial changes or whatever.

Just seems to really take the flow out of the weekends these days.

#33 noikeee

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:22

I don't think this falls into the "it's just how it is" category, because race control (clue is in the name) should have full control over this and be able to put something in place.

I understand the argument about prioritising safety, but days like today (and there have been plenty more) go so far as to negatively affect the competition.

I said in the build up thread that there needs to be a half way house between VSC/Red flag to stop the needless disruption of sessions, and I think too there needs to be something similar here.

A track condition whereby everything behind an incident is under yellow/red flag, and everything ahead is under green. It would be very easy to implement based on marshal posts and timing loops. Exclusively for qualifying.

As soon as you cross start/finish you would be inside the incident zone, easy.


You'd be creating complexity to solve an irrelevant problem. The rules are already crazy complex. Imagine all the **** race control already has to think about

#34 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:24

In quali there should be a system where if the accident is in sector 2, the track is red flagged in sectors 1&2 but sector 3 remains green for anyone who has either already passed the accident, or is no longer in a red flag sector.

Obviously that means though that cars in sector 3 will have to pass the accident again rather than just going into the pitlane…

#35 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:24

You'd be creating complexity to solve an irrelevant problem. The rules are already crazy complex. Imagine all the **** race control already has to think about


I really don't think it's complex!

#36 smitten

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:26

If Alonso had crashed like Grosjean in Bahrain then the red flag would have come out quicker than it did today. Every incident is different. If this was in a race it’s not a red flag. There was no danger.

Difference between quali and race is the time limit, though?  Do we want to see nobody set a time in Q3 because somebody spears off into the scenery on the first hot lap, or people setting grid times despite yellow sectors, or have a red flag and some green running? 

 

Red flagging probably allows more people to set competitive times, despite the fact it seems like overkill sometimes and disrupts the flow of the session.


Edited by smitten, 09 April 2022 - 08:27.


#37 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:26

I really don't think it's complex!


Yeah - we already have yellow flag sectors with the rest of the course in green… just make it that as soon as you enter a red flag zone, your next stop is the pitlane.

In the old days was it not just yellow flag corners rather than sectors? So this would just be another evolution/modernisation of the rules.

#38 SenorSjon

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:27

The red flag is thrown immediately also to save time on the clock.

I would like the Indy penalty system though. Cause a yellow and best time removed, cause a red and you're last in the particular q phase.

#39 Stumpy29

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:28

IMHO I think it depends if my favorite driver will be negatively affected or not. 


Edited by Stumpy29, 09 April 2022 - 08:28.


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#40 Dratini

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:43

They did the right thing. Shouldn't have to be looking at who is setting which sector times where and when. That will only end up in controversial situations.

This is the only response required. I felt so so bad for Carlos, but the moment we start factoring in competitive aspects to decisions that are designed to be about safety is the moment we begin our decline down a very slippery slope.
 



#41 TheFish

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 08:46

Difference between quali and race is the time limit, though? Do we want to see nobody set a time in Q3 because somebody spears off into the scenery on the first hot lap, or people setting grid times despite yellow sectors, or have a red flag and some green running?

Red flagging probably allows more people to set competitive times, despite the fact it seems like overkill sometimes and disrupts the flow of the session.


If anyone doesn’t lift through yellow flags then obviously it’s a penalty. Here there was no danger for anyone. I have no idea what your example about people going off track means.

Red flagging this session 20 seconds later wouldn’t have stopped anyone getting a fast lap in; if anything it would have allowed 1 or 2 more.

#42 RedRabbit

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:04

I don't think this falls into the "it's just how it is" category, because race control (clue is in the name) should have full control over this and be able to put something in place.

I understand the argument about prioritising safety, but days like today (and there have been plenty more) go so far as to negatively affect the competition.

I said in the build up thread that there needs to be a half way house between VSC/Red flag to stop the needless disruption of sessions, and I think too there needs to be something similar here.

A track condition whereby everything behind an incident is under yellow/red flag, and everything ahead is under green. It would be very easy to implement based on marshal posts and timing loops. Exclusively for qualifying.

As soon as you cross start/finish you would be inside the incident zone, easy.

 

Absolutely agree with this. Just because it's always been this way, doesn't mean it should stay that way. I remember way back to Montoya being p***ed at a red flag being thrown in a qualifying session as he was coming out the final corner one race and losing his time.

It's really easy enough to handle that all cars ahead of the incident finish their laps - it's no more difficult to monitor than all the cars on a fast lap after the session time is up.

We've also seen red flags shown in a session that there isn't enough time left to realistically restart and get around to start a fast lap.


Edited by RedRabbit, 09 April 2022 - 09:07.


#43 ANF

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:08

They did the right thing. Shouldn't have to be looking at who is setting which sector times where and when. That will only end up in controversial situations.

Maybe you're right.

#44 RedRabbit

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:13

I guess in some sort of fully automated version of F1 (it's coming :p ) then the red would be applied from the start line to the incident and remain green after the incident. Until that's possible the current system is probably the best.

That's easily possible right now though.



#45 Ruusperi

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:13

Occasionally I've wished the circuits had yellow zones like Le Mans. But the trouble is, like previously said here, is that if medical car is needed, all track action must come to halt.

Also if the accident happens in the first turn, drivers crossing the finish line are approaching the turn with such velocity, that sector 3 has to be yellow zone as well, thus no one would be able to improve their time. And let's remember that in qualifying, red flag saves precious time in the clock for further attempts. Any delay would only possibly mean that there's not enough time for hot laps (if the accident happens with 2 minutes remaining in the clock).

 

And frankly, it's unfair that drivers who are past the accident could finish their lap, but those that are approaching the crash site have their lap ruined. So what's lucky for some is unlucky for others. In race conditions, yellow zones are also unfair, because if there's like a 10 second gap between the drivers, and the one in front has to slow down, but then yellow zone is lifted just before the driver behind crosses it, it means the gap is decreased by multiple seconds - because of luck.

And lastly, they probably wouldn't recover car under yellow zones but would use SC anyway, or red flag the session in case of practice or qualifying.


Edited by Ruusperi, 09 April 2022 - 09:15.


#46 krapmeister

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:16

...but the moment we start factoring in competitive aspects to decisions that are designed to be about safety is the moment we begin our decline down a very slippery slope.


And was exactly what Masi was criticised for in Abu Dhabi

#47 AlexS

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:21

(...)

And frankly, it's unfair that drivers who are past the accident could finish their lap, but those that are approaching the crash site have their lap ruined.

(...)

I my opinion  the less number of drivers affects by a red flag the better. 



#48 RedRabbit

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:22

Occasionally I've wished the circuits had yellow zones like Le Mans. But the trouble is, like previously said here, is that if medical car is needed, all track action must come to halt.

Also if the accident happens in the first turn, drivers crossing the finish line are approaching the turn with such velocity, that sector 3 has to be yellow zone as well, thus no one would be able to improve their time. And let's remember that in qualifying, red flag saves precious time in the clock for further attempts. Any delay would only possibly mean that there's not enough time for hot laps (if the accident happens with 2 minutes remaining in the clock).

 

And frankly, it's unfair that drivers who are past the accident could finish their lap, but those that are approaching the crash site have their lap ruined. So what's lucky for some is unlucky for others. In race conditions, yellow zones are also unfair, because if there's like a 10 second gap between the drivers, and the one in front has to slow down, but then yellow zone is lifted just before the driver behind crosses it, it means the gap is decreased by multiple seconds - because of luck.

And lastly, they probably wouldn't recover car under yellow zones but would use SC anyway, or red flag the session in case of practice or qualifying.

 

You can red flag the session and still allow cars ahead of the incident to record a lap time. It's not that difficult to track, and wouldn't need to be tracked live, and besides, RC should have enough people monitoring these situations for that to be comfortably possible.

The "unfairness" is literally the same as a yellow flag situation - those after the incident can finish their lap at full speed, those behind have to slow down through the yellow zone. It won't affect any medical cars etc if some of the cars need to do one more slow lap to return to the pits - both Sainz and Leclerc, at least, had already passed the pit entry before the red flag was shown, so had to do another lap anyway. 



#49 TheFish

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:27

And was exactly what Masi was criticised for in Abu Dhabi


Not at all. He was criticised for making rules up on the fly.

#50 krapmeister

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Posted 09 April 2022 - 09:36

Not at all. He was criticised for making rules up on the fly.


Of course - and why was he 'making up rules on the fly'? Because he was factoring in a competitive aspect to a decision that is based on safety. He was more worried about the race having to end under a green flag than following the SC restart procedure.