26 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

I’m now intrigued - do any teams have pitboxes before the start/finish line? And if so, would pitting once and crossing the line in the pits be regarded as fulfilling the rules? (Think Schumi at Silverstone) or do they have to do at least 1 full lap?

I thought Albon and Williams were perhaps trying this… could have been a smart move if it was allowed - and open the door to more future ‘full race’ stints on the hard tyre.

But also, they were a ball-hair off being lapped by LeClerc finishing his final lap while they were in the pits anyway so perhaps would have then not been able to complete a final lap…

[SenorSjon]

If they pitted one lap earlier, they could have gotten FL and another point.

[FirstnameLastname]

If they pitted one lap earlier, they could have gotten FL and another point.

But one lap later they could have got 8th or 9th (I think)

[Jerem]

Pitting on the penultimate lap is always gonna be sub-optimal, unless the softer compound can only last one lap.

[PayasYouRace]

At Melbourne, I think all the teams have their garages before the S/F line. But you must complete a full lap for it to count.

I don’t think Williams were trying that. They were just stretching it out to the last in case of a VSC. As it was it worked out really well because they had good pace on the hards and actually had the chance to get out in 10th if they pitted on the last lap.

I’m not sure what would have happened if they’d have been lapped while he was in the pits. It’s a bit of a grey area. I think he’d have still left the pits and gone on to complete the last lap but technically would have been finished already. Really don’t know how the rules work for that.

[PayasYouRace]

If they pitted one lap earlier, they could have gotten FL and another point.

Someone said in the race thread they wouldn’t have beaten Zhou out of the pits if they pitted a lap earlier.

[JimmyClark]

I've said for years that the rule to be tweaked to allow a no-stop strategy, but if you do stop you have to use at least two compounds.

[Spillage]

I'm guessing they'd penalise you if you pit and then immediately cross the line without leaving the pitlane. It's clearly against the spirit, if not the letter, of the regulation.

AFAIK Ferrari got away wih Silverstone '98 because the stewards failed to impose the the penalty within the mandatory time limit, not because they managed to serve it and then cross the line. The penalty itself was effectively invalid.

[FirstnameLastname]

I'm guessing they'd penalise you if you pit and then immediately cross the line without leaving the pitlane. It's clearly against the spirit, if not the letter, of the regulation.

AFAIK Ferrari got away wih Silverstone '98 because the stewards failed to impose the the penalty within the mandatory time limit, not because they managed to serve it and then cross the line. The penalty itself was effectively invalid.

The spirits vs letter of regulations has always been the way in F1 though hasn't it. And you’ve ‘used’ both compounds if you do a few meters in the pitlane - the same as cars who could pit at the end of the formation lap and change tyres would have. You’re just doing it at the opposite end of the race, and swapping the formation lap for the cool-down lap

[PayasYouRace]

The spirits vs letter of regulations has always been the way in F1 though hasn't it. And you’ve ‘used’ both compounds if you do a few meters in the pitlane - the same as cars who could pit at the end of the formation lap and change tyres would have. You’re just doing it at the opposite end of the race, and swapping the formation lap for the cool-down lap

If you pit at the end of the formation lap it wouldn’t count either.

 

You need to compete a lap.

[SenorSjon]

Someone said in the race thread they wouldn’t have beaten Zhou out of the pits if they pitted a lap earlier.

New softs should make short work of 40 lap old hards and than he still would have the final lap for an extra point.

[PayasYouRace]

New softs should make short work of 40 lap old hards and than he still would have the final lap for an extra point.

 

Still a risk giving up on track position. I wouldn't hold it against them for leaving it to the last lap.

[SenorSjon]

I can live with either choice.
---
Weird enough, the medium was quite poor again. While the hard could last a race, the mediums barely lasted 15 laps. And there is only one compound difference. Iirc, we had this last year as well.

[HP]

Probably we wouldn't be talking about this issue, had Sainz or Verstappen still been in the race ahead of the Williams.

 

I've said for years that the rule to be tweaked to allow a no-stop strategy, but if you do stop you have to use at least two compounds.

[HP]

Still a risk giving up on track position. I wouldn't hold it against them for leaving it to the last lap.

For Melbourne teams prefer track position. So you are right. And I doubt the Williams has superior speed, even with softs. How many laps does it take to heat up the softs?

[Michkov]

I would need to check, but IIRC the FIA puts the finish line in a position that it wont split the pitlane across two laps. Usually the finish line is ahead of the first stall so your proposed tactic wouldn't work for say Bahrain or Interlagos, but at Melbourne may have it the other way around.

[Clatter]

I’m now intrigued - do any teams have pitboxes before the start/finish line? And if so, would pitting once and crossing the line in the pits be regarded as fulfilling the rules? (Think Schumi at Silverstone) or do they have to do at least 1 full lap?

I thought Albon and Williams were perhaps trying this… could have been a smart move if it was allowed - and open the door to more future ‘full race’ stints on the hard tyre.

But also, they were a ball-hair off being lapped by LeClerc finishing his final lap while they were in the pits anyway so perhaps would have then not been able to complete a final lap…

Pretty sure that loophole was closed after Schumacher's incident.

[Bleu]

Pretty sure that loophole was closed after Schumacher's incident.

 

It was. I can recall two instances where driver pitted on the final lap and was considered as not finished - on the circuits which have finish line before pit lane.

 

First one was Robert Doornbos in China 2005 - he probably didn't realize actually overtaking race winner Alonso who was slowing towards the chequered flag on the final straight.

Other one was Sebastien Buemi in Italy 2009 - safety car was deployed on the final lap due to Hamilton's accident at Lesmo and it came ahead of Buemi, took one lap around the circuit, pitted and Buemi followed it into the pits.  

[Bleu]

I would need to check, but IIRC the FIA puts the finish line in a position that it wont split the pitlane across two laps. Usually the finish line is ahead of the first stall so your proposed tactic wouldn't work for say Bahrain or Interlagos, but at Melbourne may have it the other way around.

 

That's true and it has been since the 1980s at least. That rule explains why start and finish lines are on the different places on many circuits. 

[ANF]

Stroll's strategy in Australia was also quite interesting: he only completed lap 4 on the medium tyre, and that was behind the safety car.

[ANF]

Pretty sure that loophole was closed after Schumacher's incident.

 

It was. I can recall two instances where driver pitted on the final lap and was considered as not finished - on the circuits which have finish line before pit lane.
 
First one was Robert Doornbos in China 2005 - he probably didn't realize actually overtaking race winner Alonso who was slowing towards the chequered flag on the final straight.
Other one was Sebastien Buemi in Italy 2009 - safety car was deployed on the final lap due to Hamilton's accident at Lesmo and it came ahead of Buemi, took one lap around the circuit, pitted and Buemi followed it into the pits.

Hmm, is there actually a rule against taking the chequered flag in the pit lane though? I can't find any. And it wouldn't make any sense; driving through the pit lane should always be slower, not faster – and why wouldn't a driver be allowed to enter the pit lane on the final lap if there's a problem with the car and they don't want to stop on track?

If I'm correct that there is no rule against finishing the race in the pit lane, then I suppose the teams with pit boxes before the control line could pit on the final lap and only complete 100 metres on one tyre specification; Article 30.5n) says drivers "must use at least two different specifications of dry-weather tyres during the race", but it doesn't say whether one lap must be completed on each specification...

 

Edit: I found this event note from last year's British GP (Silverstone has an unusual pit entry which is a lot shorter than the track). This suggests that there is indeed no general rule against finishing the race in the pit lane:

 

28) Finishing the Race
28.1 In the interests of sporting fairness and to facilitate the orderly conduct of the Event in accordance with the provisions of the FIA International Sporting Code, any car which does not cross the Control Line on the track to finish the sprint qualifying session or the race will be referred to the Stewards.

 

There is no such event note at Monza or Interlagos or Jeddah or...

Edited by ANF, 17 April 2022 - 10:42.

[PayasYouRace]

That's true and it has been since the 1980s at least. That rule explains why start and finish lines are on the different places on many circuits. 

 

That's not really what's going on. The finish line is required to be directly in front of race control, so that in the event of timing failure they can judge cars over the line visually. Race control tends to be at one end of the garage complex or the other.

 

There isn't any particular requirement for the line to not split the garages.

 

The start line has to be at the front of the grid, which is why its often in a different location.

[PayasYouRace]

Hmm, is there actually a rule against taking the chequered flag in the pit lane though? I can't find any. And it wouldn't make any sense; driving through the pit lane should always be slower, not faster – and why wouldn't a driver be allowed to enter the pit lane on the final lap if there's a problem with the car and they don't want to stop on track?

If I'm correct that there is no rule against finishing the race in the pit lane, then I suppose the teams with pit boxes before the control line could pit on the final lap and only complete 100 metres on one tyre specification; Article 30.5n) says drivers "must use at least two different specifications of dry-weather tyres during the race", but it doesn't say whether one lap must be completed on each specification...

 

You are allowed to pit on the final lap.

 

You're not allowed to take a penalty on the final lap (Schumacher Rule), but that's very much obsolete today as there are provisions for adding time if a driver fails to take a penalty in the pit lane.

 

Perhaps it's a loophole in the written regulations, but I'm sure it has been clarified that in order to count, the car must leave the pits on the set of tyres. So no pitting on the last lap to meet the two-compound rule.

[Primo]

 

Perhaps it's a loophole in the written regulations, but I'm sure it has been clarified that in order to count, the car must leave the pits on the set of tyres. So no pitting on the last lap to meet the two-compound rule.

There seem to be indeed be a loophole in the regs, but, like you, I believe it is clarified elsewhere. 6.5 L says:

 

Unless he has used intermediate or wet-weather tyres during the race, each driver must use at least two different specifications of dry-weather tyres during the race, at least one of which must be a mandatory dry-weather race tyre specification as defined in Article 6.2(b). Unless a race is suspended and cannot be re-started, failure to comply with this requirement will result in the disqualification of the relevant driver from the race results. If the race is suspended and cannot be re-started, thirty seconds will be added to the elapsed time of any driver who was unable to use at least two specifications of dryweather tyre.

The word "use" is very vague. You drive a meter or use them as coffee tables. 

There was a DTM race some years ago, I think they started with a "two compounds" rule at more or less the same time as F1, where one driver came into the pits, changed onto the "bad" rubber, drove one meter and then they changed to the "good" compound. I am not sure, but I think they got away with it. After that, they clarified the rule to "must be driven at least one lap" both in F1 and DTM. 

Edited by Primo, 17 April 2022 - 11:58.

[smitten]

There seem to be indeed be a loophole in the regs, but, like you, I believe it is clarified elsewhere. 6.5 L says:

The word "use" is very vague. You drive a meter or use them as coffee tables. 

There was a DTM race some years ago, I think they started with a "two compounds" rule at more or less the same time as F1, where one driver came into the pits, changed onto the "bad" rubber, drove one meter and then they changed to the "good" compound. I am not sure, but I think they got away with it. After that, they clarified the rule to "must be driven at least one lap" both in F1 and DTM. 

"Use" is defined in the regs as crossing the Pit Exit line.

[Primo]

"Use" is defined in the regs as crossing the Pit Exit line.

Ok, can you point to it? I never really got the hang of finding stuff in the regs.

[smitten]

Ok, can you point to it? I never really got the hang of finding stuff in the regs.

 

 

30.5 Use of Tyres
c) Tyres will only be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane