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Time to get rid of the two compound rule?


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#1 Cornholio

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:24

I mean the literal time to get rid of it was before the start of the 2007 season but, after watching today's race seeing Albon and Williams having to give up a strong position (I know they got one point in the end) just to satisfy a regulation like this kind of acted as a reminder of what a joke this rule is and always has been.

 

While I'll always hate the nature of the Pirelli cheese tyres, the fact they exist means the pit stop fans will be satisfied 99.99% of the time regardless, so why have this rule on top of that? I feel like if a driver and team can make one set last the full distance against the odds, they should be rewarded for it.



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#2 Misk

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:26

He was only in such a good position because everyone else had to pit. If the rules were different I'm sure a lot of cars would have started on the hards and run the same stratergy.


Edited by Misk, 10 April 2022 - 22:26.


#3 r4mses

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:31

He was only in such a good position because everyone else had to pit. If the rules were different I'm sure a lot of cars would have started on the hards and run the same stratergy.

 

Fine by me. They're forced to overtake on track if there's no over/undercutting.



#4 Gravelngrass

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:43

It would be great but Pirelli’s bottom line is more important than fans…

Plus you have a big camp of newbies that have been brainwashed to believe pit stops are great for races.

#5 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:45

It would be nice if non-stop races were an option, but let's not pretend Albon was robbed today. Williams went for an unconventional strategy that paid off fairly well, but he was running higher than he should have been until his stop.



#6 noikeee

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:52

I know this rule is quite artificial but I think it should stay. It throws quite a lot of variables into a race. If we give completely free tyre choice then teams would likely run the whole race on the compound that suits them best, and we see fewer surprises through a race. It is interesting when they all switch from compound 1 to 2 and then the car that was quickest in the first stint, suddenly isn't anymore. You'd be reducing the scope for this kind of thing to happen.

#7 Izzyeviel

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 22:59

They should make it so, if you pit, you have to run different compounds as it is now, but if you reckon you can make it, you don't have to pit.



#8 YamahaV10

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 23:07

Yes. What a bad rule.

#9 eibyyz

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 23:29

I know this rule is quite artificial but I think it should stay. It throws quite a lot of variables into a race. If we give completely free tyre choice then teams would likely run the whole race on the compound that suits them best, and we see fewer surprises through a race. It is interesting when they all switch from compound 1 to 2 and then the car that was quickest in the first stint, suddenly isn't anymore. You'd be reducing the scope for this kind of thing to happen.

 

Fine, but limit the number of crew working on the car.



#10 Cornholio

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 23:31

They should make it so, if you pit, you have to run different compounds as it is now, but if you reckon you can make it, you don't have to pit.

 

While still very artificial, to be honest I wouldn't mind this as a compromise and at the end of the day an improvement over the current situation. It would retain the feature that noikeee mentions above you the vast vast majority of the time (given that with these tyres pitting at least once is usually by far the quicker way to go), while also throwing in no-stop as an extra strategic option for those that can manage it and make it work.



#11 MKSixer

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Posted 10 April 2022 - 23:33

Yes.  And Pirelli.



#12 YamahaV10

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 00:59

I know this rule is quite artificial but I think it should stay. It throws quite a lot of variables into a race. If we give completely free tyre choice then teams would likely run the whole race on the compound that suits them best, and we see fewer surprises through a race. It is interesting when they all switch from compound 1 to 2 and then the car that was quickest in the first stint, suddenly isn't anymore. You'd be reducing the scope for this kind of thing to happen.


There should be exceptions built into the rule. The bottom pair teams in the points standings don't need to run 2 compounds

#13 w1Y

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 03:12

Usually with the tyres a pattern emerges on how they are managed. Anyone else really confused on how these new tyres perform?

And to me not having a 2 compound rule increases the chances of tyre failures as teams go for what albon did yesterday.

Maybe drop the rule but say 2 sets of.tyres must be used

Edited by w1Y, 11 April 2022 - 03:13.


#14 TheFish

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 04:40

Monaco would be even worse without this rule. An entire race of no overtakes or pit stops.

#15 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 05:53

I think the rule is fine. It opens the possibility for different strategies as it forces at least one pitstop and maybe a less desirable tyre.

#16 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 05:59

Most of the time, the hard tires won't last the race. We had one compound softer barely being able to do 10-20 laps, yet the hards could do 60 laps.

#17 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 06:03

Most of the time, the hard tires won't last the race. We had one compound softer barely being able to do 10-20 laps, yet the hards could do 60 laps.


Yeah but 2 mediums might work pretty often. And they would set up the car for that tyre.

With the 2 compounds rule there is the chance u miss a tyre completely.

#18 Celloman

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 06:11

I mean the literal time to get rid of it was before the start of the 2007 season but, after watching today's race seeing Albon and Williams having to give up a strong position (I know they got one point in the end) just to satisfy a regulation like this kind of acted as a reminder of what a joke this rule is and always has been.

 

While I'll always hate the nature of the Pirelli cheese tyres, the fact they exist means the pit stop fans will be satisfied 99.99% of the time regardless, so why have this rule on top of that? I feel like if a driver and team can make one set last the full distance against the odds, they should be rewarded for it.

You realize there are several tracks where teams would nurse tires to finish with zero stops? Monaco and Monza comes to mind, but also most of the street circuits like Baku, Saudi and perhaps Singapore could easily be extended to a zero stop race with the hardest available compound. Pirelli tires haven't been cheese tires for several years, it's just the new regs that require teams to adjust for a while and soon they'll easily make any compound last half a race again.



#19 timmy bolt

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 06:16

Fine with the rule as it stands.

I don't think it is in the sports interest to have more Albon Australia drives. Sure its intriguing as a one off but if you had a low deg track and half the grid trundling round not able to overtake or defend for fear of causing too much wear it won't be enjoyable anymore.

Edit: also the dual tyre rule was to stop cars just using the most suitable tyre for their car/ the track. Before the rule you had some really boring races with everyone on the same tyres going similar speed on both stints with similar deg curves. Strategy declined because it just became a much obvious fastest route to the finish line that to do anything to race the best tyre on each stint was pointless.

Now you can see team's chancing it with reverse strategies (long on hard then medium) and others mixing it up. It also forces car design and set up to work with all tyre types.

Edited by timmy bolt, 11 April 2022 - 06:31.


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#20 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 06:26

This would just lead to more delta driving and tyre saving would it not?

I forget now, but did we not do a season with tyres that last the whole race? How’d that go?

#21 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 06:28

This would just lead to more delta driving and tyre saving would it not?

I forget now, but did we not do a season with tyres that last the whole race? How’d that go?

Not something we can meaningfully compare to. There was a tyre war, so the tyre companies were pushing to make tyres that would last for qualifying and the race without issues. There was also refuelling, which dominated race strategy. It was the extreme of fuel stop sprint racing.



#22 Barty

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:11

It would be great but Pirelli’s bottom line is more important than fans…

Plus you have a big camp of newbies that have been brainwashed to believe pit stops are great for races.

 

I'm not a newbie, I have been following F1 since 1992, and I know that pitstops are great for races.



#23 Izzyeviel

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:12

This would just lead to more delta driving and tyre saving would it not?

I forget now, but did we not do a season with tyres that last the whole race? How’d that go?

One of the best title battles we had all decade. And Indy only happened because of politics



#24 TomNokoe

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:16

They should drop the C2 and C4 and just bring C1-C3-C5 to every single race. Raise the pit lane speed limit too by a small amount to increase the amount of stops.

Edited by TomNokoe, 11 April 2022 - 07:17.


#25 Izzyeviel

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:17

I'm not a newbie, I have been following F1 since 1992, and I know that pitstops are great for races.

*more strategy options are great for races. When everyones forced to go on the same strategy, it gets boring



#26 Westcoustskt

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:22

They could change the tire rule so that they dont need to use two compounds if they dont do a tire change.

#27 chrcol

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:23

I have never liked the rule, hinders radical strategies.



#28 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:34

I think people are forgetting why they brought this rule in…and it does spice up races. I wouldn’t say that it’s particularly ‘artificial’ either and it’s quite fair overall.

 

If you had the option to not pit you would have drivers running at a very slow pace and not taking any risks, there would be less aggression on track, etc.

 

I don’t really thing the whole ‘it makes them overtake on track instead’ thing applies too much any more. We’ve seen that with DRS it is fairly straightforward now.

 

I can’t see many/any advantages in changing the current rules. 



#29 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:54

I think people are forgetting why they brought this rule in…and it does spice up races. I wouldn’t say that it’s particularly ‘artificial’ either and it’s quite fair overall.

I'd say it's the go-to example of an artificial gimmick.

By the way I don't think this has ever happened but if a race starts on a damp track and some people start on slicks and some on wets and it dries out, those on the wets will obviouslt have to change to slicks at some point. But the slick gamblers would then have to hand back in their well-earnt advantage by stopping for a new set of slicks even if they could last the race because of this stupid rule (I presume). That would be ridiculous.

#30 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 07:57

I'd say it's the go-to example of an artificial gimmick.

By the way I don't think this has ever happened but if a race starts on a damp track and some people start on slicks and some on wets and it dries out, those on the wets will obviouslt have to change to slicks at some point. But the slick gamblers would then have to hand back in their well-earnt advantage by stopping for a new set of slicks even if they could last the race because of this stupid rule (I presume). That would be ridiculous.

If the track is declared wet by the race director (which it would be if people felt the need to be on inters or wets) then those gambling on slicks wouldn’t be mandated to stop again. If anything, that situation benefits those gambling on slicks.


Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 11 April 2022 - 07:59.


#31 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 08:24

I'm not a newbie, I have been following F1 since 1992, and I know that pitstops are great for races.


Pit stop strategy has been a big part of F1 since the early 1980s. So anyone under 40 at this point must be a “newbie”.

#32 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 08:46

Fine, but limit the number of crew working on the car.


And ban the tyre warmers.

#33 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 08:46

Another aspect that has not been mentioned is, it would likely become a safety issue, especially around street tracks. 

 

Many will go beyond the limit and will try to make it to the end on one set of tyres.

 

Around street tracks, that is just messy and dangerous.



#34 LolaB0860

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 08:48

If we still had tire war, as we should, then the two compound rule would make sense. It would stop the tire companies from producing 1 ultimate amazing race conditions tire, and rather have multiple ones, while still aiming for ongoing development and beating the tire rival(s). As the qualities between tire brand would be completely different to each other, the pit strategies would also be more varied for the teams. Less tire saving too.

In spec tire format it is just artificial. Pirelli can produce whatever they please with the cheapest effort and the teams just pick what they have to. Usually with similar outcomes, cases such as with Williams here are rarity.

Edited by LolaB0860, 11 April 2022 - 08:54.


#35 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 08:51

Another aspect that has not been mentioned is, it would likely become a safety issue, especially around street tracks.

Many will go beyond the limit and will try to make it to the end on one set of tyres.

Around street tracks, that is just messy and dangerous.


Makes you wonder how they managed for all those years before the the rule came in. 🙄

It was never introduced for safety reasons.

#36 Shell

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:00

Absolutely not...until Pirelli can come with some of the best lasting tyres....this is clearly also a safety measure..to run from ambition and to keep a place until your tyres are gone and probably crush, no...not everybody can have the luck that albon has to run the same tyre for over 55 laps...and what about more abrasive tracks where even the harder compound cannot last 30 laps!? When you are heading out of Monaco tunnel in the last 2-3 laps , your tyre to fail on you and crush dramatically...

Such a great rule, it must stay


Edited by Shell, 11 April 2022 - 09:02.


#37 Izzyeviel

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:20

Absolutely not...until Pirelli can come with some of the best lasting tyres....this is clearly also a safety measure..to run from ambition and to keep a place until your tyres are gone and probably crush, no...not everybody can have the luck that albon has to run the same tyre for over 55 laps...and what about more abrasive tracks where even the harder compound cannot last 30 laps!? When you are heading out of Monaco tunnel in the last 2-3 laps , your tyre to fail on you and crush dramatically...

Such a great rule, it must stay

Precisely. It requires skill & circumstance. In most cases the top teams know that like now, a pit stop would be the quicker option for them.  It'll be the lower placed teams using it as a way to get into the top 10 and hopefully stay there. The guys at the front won't really be affected, but the midfielders - instead of trundling around in 9th, they'll have to push. And it would be only workable at a few tracks anyway.

 

However if we can get tyres actually designed to last a whole race, we can increase safety in F1 by getting rid of dangerous pitstops altogether.



#38 Celloman

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:25

One of the best title battles we had all decade. And Indy only happened because of politics

There wasn't much of a title battle in 2005 if by battle you mean actual encounters on track. Raikkonen was clear on his own in most races until his car broke or had to start from the back due to engine breaking in free practice. Overall those race lasting tires brought nothing but worse racing, which is why that experiment only lasted a season.

 

And as pointed by someone above, having any kind of option to do zero stops and tires that allow that even in theory would always make it a very attractive strategy. Driving to a delta is always a better option than risking a pit stop with possible issues and dealing with the traffic afterwards or a badly timed safety car period. It is unfortunately always a better strategy to avoid pit stops so long as there isn't a significant time gain for the strategy that involves doing a stop or more.



#39 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:32

Absolutely not...until Pirelli can come with some of the best lasting tyres....this is clearly also a safety measure..to run from ambition and to keep a place until your tyres are gone and probably crush, no...not everybody can have the luck that albon has to run the same tyre for over 55 laps...and what about more abrasive tracks where even the harder compound cannot last 30 laps!? When you are heading out of Monaco tunnel in the last 2-3 laps , your tyre to fail on you and crush dramatically...
Such a great rule, it must stay

You think all tyres in the past lasted forever? What about the situation where a team puts really early and then pushes the tyres to try and make a one stop? Teams will push the tyres, they always have done and always will do. Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they don't, but that's purely on the team and doesn't need the forced stop for safety reasons.

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#40 cpbell

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:38

He was only in such a good position because everyone else had to pit. If the rules were different I'm sure a lot of cars would have started on the hards and run the same stratergy.

In that case, stopping would then become the alternative strategy.



#41 cpbell

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:43

Pit stop strategy has been a big part of F1 since the early 1980s. So anyone under 40 at this point must be a “newbie”.

In the late '80s (really, until the refuelling era of F1) my recollection was that it was more a question of "will a driver who has gone with harder tyres be able to make them last or will he have to pit?" and "will the driver who has gone with the softs be able to make it on just one stop?"



#42 Izzyeviel

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:47

There wasn't much of a title battle in 2005 if by battle you mean actual encounters on track. Raikkonen was clear on his own in most races until his car broke or had to start from the back due to engine breaking in free practice. Overall those race lasting tires brought nothing but worse racing, which is why that experiment only lasted a season.

 

And as pointed by someone above, having any kind of option to do zero stops and tires that allow that even in theory would always make it a very attractive strategy. Driving to a delta is always a better option than risking a pit stop with possible issues and dealing with the traffic afterwards or a badly timed safety car period. It is unfortunately always a better strategy to avoid pit stops so long as there isn't a significant time gain for the strategy that involves doing a stop or more.

a) they're driving to a delta anyway apart from a few laps of  'hammertime'. And they're on the same strategy anyway

b) not stopping for tyres but stopping twice a race for 7 second fuel stops rather impacted the track action



#43 Izzyeviel

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 09:49

In the late '80s (really, until the refuelling era of F1) my recollection was that it was more a question of "will a driver who has gone with harder tyres be able to make them last or will he have to pit?" and "will the driver who has gone with the softs be able to make it on just one stop?"

and as the Nigel enthusiasts on here will tell you, it created some epic moments in F1 history. 



#44 Beri

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:00

Let's only change the two compound rule when Pirelli doesn't provide tyres that can last an entire race.

Because this is ridiculous:

LAP TIME
1 15:04:54
2 1:29.169
3 1:55.834
4 2:12.047
5 2:17.043
6 2:05.182
7 1:28.217
8 1:26.992
9 1:26.750
10 1:25.709
11 1:27.213
12 1:27.173
13 1:26.246
14 1:25.491
15 1:25.328
16 1:25.558
17 1:25.548
18 1:25.499
19 1:25.469
20 1:25.553
21 1:26.496
22 1:28.593
23 1:40.703
24 2:10.508
25 2:29.884
26 2:28.059
27 1:27.079
28 1:26.155
29 1:24.946
30 1:24.335
31 1:24.411
32 1:24.626
33 1:24.710
34 1:25.132
35 1:25.370
36 1:24.527
37 1:24.525
38 1:24.231
39 1:51.107
40 1:28.654
41 1:23.366
42 1:23.238
43 1:23.245
44 1:23.071
45 1:23.962
46 1:22.964
47 1:22.936
48 1:23.029
49 1:23.025
50 1:23.127
51 1:22.997
52 1:22.706
53 1:22.594
54 1:22.589
55 1:22.758
56 1:22.658

#45 TomNokoe

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:12

Let's only change the two compound rule when Pirelli doesn't provide tyres that can last an entire race.

It's clear that the current generation Pirellis really value being nursed early in the stint. I don't think it was deliberate from Albon, more that he was simply managing in traffic, but the pace reward at the end of the stint is incredible.

2.5s away from his own quali time on a compound 3 steps harder and with 40+ laps flying laps on, not to mention the setup/deployment differences in comparison to qualifying. What a remarkable, if puzzling stint.

Edited by TomNokoe, 11 April 2022 - 10:13.


#46 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:12

It was a stupid idea to begin with



#47 Sterzo

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:13

Agree totally with the OP. Moto GP can provide good racing without compulsory pit stops, so could F1 for many years. Making a tyre that needs a little management (but not much) is perfectly possible, it's simply not the brief the FIA has given Pirelli.

 

Not a fan of "strategies." Where good information is available, the teams end up on the same one. Where it's not, it's a throw of the dice - and I want to watch racing, not Ludo.

 

Let's have durable tyres with a broad operating window so they aren't so temperature-critical. It would help close following too.



#48 Primo

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:24

He was only in such a good position because everyone else had to pit. If the rules were different I'm sure a lot of cars would have started on the hards and run the same stratergy.

And they should have been allowed to. If Pirelli make tires that last the whole race, use it for the whole race if you think it is the quickest way. I find the "use two different compounds" rule utterly ridiculous.



#49 CoolBreeze

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:47

IMO, they only should have the following compound of tyres available the entire weekend:

 

Qualifying Tyres - the softest compound that is to be used for qualifying

Extreme Wet Tyres - As the title says. Logistics wise, can save by not bringing these tyres for say Jeddah

Inter Tyres - Mandatory for each weekend

Medium Tyres - I think this should be a standard race tyre. Hard means we will not see any pitstops, and chances of drivers managing tyres, not racing the cars will occur. Ideally, a race with 1 - 2 pitstops is good enough. 

 

This stupid current tyre rules actually was lots of money in freight. 



#50 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 April 2022 - 10:50

One of the best title battles we had all decade. And Indy only happened because of politics


Politics might have affected the way Indy was handled, but it still came down to Michelin being unable to provide a tyre that was safe for a race distance and rules not allowing no changes during the race.