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F1 set for a return to Kyalami?


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#51 Beri

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 08:56

I had my math wrong, so I had to repost   ;)
 

Does Baku and Monte Carlo have permanent circuits within the city? Do you have better numbers for cost of street circuits?

 
Right, I know you are pulling a leg. Or at least it feels like it. But let me tell you this;
If a permanent racing facility is hosting a race, for instance lets say Spa, then the fans are dragged towards the track and its near vicinity. So the region does profit from the race. But the rest of the year, hardly anyone goes to Spa just to visit the track. Not even towards Liege for a city trip. And no way that Brussels is having an influx of tourists due to the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa. Whereas in the case of Baku, Monaco or in the future Las Vegas, people see the race and do want to visit the city. And this is even aside from those people who actually attend the race.
 
And on the subject of the numbers:
The Baku City Circuit needed alterations to be able to be converted to a Street Circuit. This has costed around 7.9 million dollars. The hosting of the Grand Prix itself for the 5 year period, building up the track, building up facilities and also cleaning up afterwards, does cost less than 150 million dollars.
Simple math will tell you that 150 million dollars, at max, divided by the 5 years the contract is long, makes it an investment of 30 million dollars per year to prep the circuit and all facilities each year.
If we look at the numbers in my earlier post, there is an difference in the influx of tourists by 1 million compared to the period preceding the Grand Prix. Which in effect tells me that if 1 million tourists spend around 30 dollars each, those 30 million dollars are already back in the monetary system of Azerbaijan. We all know tourists spend more and this is even calculated without the direct profits from ticket sales at the Grand Prix itself. Calculated with a bigger spending spree, and the taxes as profit alone, it is very well possible that the Grand Prix is very much worth it to Baku. Even with the hosting fee of 55 million per annum is included. And even more valuable, is how the Grand Prix builds up the image of the city of Baku. Because before the Grand Prix, hardly anyone ever thought about going to Baku. But right now, at least in my social environment, there are multiple people telling they want to visit Baku once. And I cant say that Spa does the same for Belgium or a major city near Spa.



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#52 Beri

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 09:00

Spa is a UNESCO world heritage site tbf. Mostly for historical interest as it was a major destination for the 18th and 19th century leisure classes seeking bathing cures, but it's still a nice place to visit and the countryside is beautiful.

 

But it isnt the Grand Prix that is dragging those mentioned tourists towards Spa. It is the fact that it is UNESCO listed. But aside from that, you are absolutely right and I am the guy that does screw the tourist numbers up. Because I can be found multiple times per year on or around the vicinity of the track or the cities around.



#53 BRG

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 09:01

 Because before the Grand Prix, hardly anyone ever thought about going to Baku. But right now, at least in my social environment, there are multiple people telling they want to visit Baku once. And I cant say that Spa does the same for Belgium or a major city near Spa.

 

But the graph that you posted showed that 2.5 million people went to Baku before the grand prix even started?  And what sort of social environment do you inhabit where there are people interested in visiting Baku?  I can honestly say that in my whole life, I have never ever encountered even one person with such an ambition!  

 

Whereas Spa has been tourist destination for centuries, probably since Roman times.  It even gave its name to anywhere where there are curative waters - they are called 'spas'  Not that the race track is very close to Spa really.



#54 Beri

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 09:12

But the graph that you posted showed that 2.5 million people went to Baku before the grand prix even started?  And what sort of social environment do you inhabit where there are people interested in visiting Baku?  I can honestly say that in my whole life, I have never ever encountered even one person with such an ambition!  

 

Whereas Spa has been tourist destination for centuries, probably since Roman times.  It even gave its name to anywhere where there are curative waters - they are called 'spas'  Not that the race track is very close to Spa really.

 

:lol:  Well the kind where people tend to travel the world to look at different sceneries compared to the standard Eiffel Tower, Buckingham Palace, Empire State Building or the Sydney Opera House. More like people that do like visiting the remnants of the First and Second World War worldwide, visit Chernobyl (back in a peaceful time), or visit countries like Mongolia, Azerbaijan, Nepal or the hinterlands (correct word?) of China rather than its crowded cities.

 

And yes, the graph started off with 2 million people at the inaugrual Grand Prix at Baku. But it did (steeply) rise to 3 in the years after. So I did my math with those 1 million people.



#55 Risil

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 10:42

Baku has invested a lot in its tourist industry in the last decade. I don't know how much of the million extra tourists are attributable to F1, or how much investment to infrastructure, amenities etc had to happen to support the extra visitors.

Of course the Grand Prix keeps happening year after year so it must be working for some people.

#56 BRG

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 11:05

I cannot see that the exposure which Baku gets in TV coverage of the GP is sufficient to generate very much visitor traffic away from the GP weekend.  OK, the city looks alright, but is it enough to persuade millions of people to make a special trip when they could go somewhere rather more exciting?  I can't say that any GP venue has ever filled me with a desire to visit other than for the race.

 

Beri's friends and colleagues must be an unusual crowd.  i worked all mu life in international development and moved and travelled amongst a very cosmopolitan group, including many UN colleagues from all over.  I do not recall ever meeting any Azeris, although I may not have taken special note if I did, but I can safely say that no-one ever expressed any interest whatsoever in visiting Baku.  Nor for that matter, Iceland, Angola, Panama, New Caledonia or quite a few other, perfectly nice but uninspiring, places. I wonder if it is more about the Azeri diaspora (if there is one) starting to visit the old homeland?

 

Interestingly, the trend in the graph above shows that visitor traffic to Baku took off after the 1999 Bond film which featured a BMW Z8 being sliced in half by helicopter-borne circular saws, against a background of polluted oil derricks in the Caspian Sea.  This being the first real international exposure for Azerbaijan, you would think it would not have attracted visitors.



#57 RA2

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 11:11

57 million was the cost of the Singapore GP excluding hosting fee.

Australia, the track cata 40 million to put up ever year without the staffing cost.

But there is a significant portion within those costs which go towards the grandstands, which are going to be a recurring cost at most venues, permanent or temporary, with a few exceptions.

#58 Risil

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 11:32

Thank you for working in a World Is Not Enough reference BRG. Brilliant technique.

#59 Beri

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 13:48

I cannot see that the exposure which Baku gets in TV coverage of the GP is sufficient to generate very much visitor traffic away from the GP weekend.  OK, the city looks alright, but is it enough to persuade millions of people to make a special trip when they could go somewhere rather more exciting?  I can't say that any GP venue has ever filled me with a desire to visit other than for the race.

 

Beri's friends and colleagues must be an unusual crowd.  i worked all mu life in international development and moved and travelled amongst a very cosmopolitan group, including many UN colleagues from all over.  I do not recall ever meeting any Azeris, although I may not have taken special note if I did, but I can safely say that no-one ever expressed any interest whatsoever in visiting Baku.  Nor for that matter, Iceland, Angola, Panama, New Caledonia or quite a few other, perfectly nice but uninspiring, places. I wonder if it is more about the Azeri diaspora (if there is one) starting to visit the old homeland?

 

Interestingly, the trend in the graph above shows that visitor traffic to Baku took off after the 1999 Bond film which featured a BMW Z8 being sliced in half by helicopter-borne circular saws, against a background of polluted oil derricks in the Caspian Sea.  This being the first real international exposure for Azerbaijan, you would think it would not have attracted visitors.

 

Talking about my friends being unusual? Clearly we havent been in a hefty dialogue together, else you would have descibed me as being unusual too   ;)

 

And I have to agree with Risil, that reference on Twine is absolutely bang on in the light of this discussion. Too bad the Z8 was clearly already cut in half rather than the fantastic special effects made it look.



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#60 ar1

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 13:54

Id love to see a race in africa, Kyalami woukd be great

But, i also think 20 races is the ideal number +/- 10%

 

Would happily swap 25 races with 10 teams for 20 races with 13 teams



#61 Bleu

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 14:50

Considering two races held at "modern" Kyalami I think 1992 was a very dull one, 1993 was great until Prost took the lead and escaped, however that race had huge attrition. 



#62 Clatter

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 16:16

I cannot see that the exposure which Baku gets in TV coverage of the GP is sufficient to generate very much visitor traffic away from the GP weekend. OK, the city looks alright, but is it enough to persuade millions of people to make a special trip when they could go somewhere rather more exciting? I can't say that any GP venue has ever filled me with a desire to visit other than for the race.

Beri's friends and colleagues must be an unusual crowd. i worked all mu life in international development and moved and travelled amongst a very cosmopolitan group, including many UN colleagues from all over. I do not recall ever meeting any Azeris, although I may not have taken special note if I did, but I can safely say that no-one ever expressed any interest whatsoever in visiting Baku. Nor for that matter, Iceland, Angola, Panama, New Caledonia or quite a few other, perfectly nice but uninspiring, places. I wonder if it is more about the Azeri diaspora (if there is one) starting to visit the old homeland?

Interestingly, the trend in the graph above shows that visitor traffic to Baku took off after the 1999 Bond film which featured a BMW Z8 being sliced in half by helicopter-borne circular saws, against a background of polluted oil derricks in the Caspian Sea. This being the first real international exposure for Azerbaijan, you would think it would not have attracted visitors.

As most coverage is behind a paywall, the numbers that learn about these places through F1 must be quite small, compared to the number that visit.

#63 Chick0

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 19:35



#64 ANF

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Posted 13 April 2022 - 20:43

Here's a video showing 9 hours of Kyalami. Or 6 hours before sunset.



#65 Beri

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 06:43

I find it funny that Domenicali never spoke about South Africa, but rather the continent of Africa, and the media picks it up and says that F1 is going back to Kyalami.



#66 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 06:51

Let's bring back the Coppa di Natale

diapositiva1-2.jpg



#67 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 06:55

Or The Gran Premio di Tripoli

01B9-6RPS.jpg



#68 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 06:56

Let's bring back the Coppa di Natale
diapositiva1-2.jpg


Proto-COTA.

#69 Beri

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 07:07

Or The Gran Premio di Tripoli
01B9-6RPS.jpg

 
That would have provided some scenery!
 
43822.jpg

Sadly, these days it looks more like this:

mitiga_airport_libya_290719.jpg

#70 JimmyClark

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 07:17

Let's bring back the Coppa di Natale
diapositiva1-2.jpg


I'm actually planning to go to Eritrea in 2023, so I would support this haha.

#71 RA2

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 07:36

 
That would have provided some scenery!
 
43822.jpg

Sadly, these days it looks more like this:

mitiga_airport_libya_290719.jpg

 


I thought it would look like this SLneqHQ.jpg

#72 pdac

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 13:07

I cannot see that the exposure which Baku gets in TV coverage of the GP is sufficient to generate very much visitor traffic away from the GP weekend.  OK, the city looks alright, but is it enough to persuade millions of people to make a special trip when they could go somewhere rather more exciting?  I can't say that any GP venue has ever filled me with a desire to visit other than for the race.

 

Beri's friends and colleagues must be an unusual crowd.  i worked all mu life in international development and moved and travelled amongst a very cosmopolitan group, including many UN colleagues from all over.  I do not recall ever meeting any Azeris, although I may not have taken special note if I did, but I can safely say that no-one ever expressed any interest whatsoever in visiting Baku.  Nor for that matter, Iceland, Angola, Panama, New Caledonia or quite a few other, perfectly nice but uninspiring, places. I wonder if it is more about the Azeri diaspora (if there is one) starting to visit the old homeland?

 

Interestingly, the trend in the graph above shows that visitor traffic to Baku took off after the 1999 Bond film which featured a BMW Z8 being sliced in half by helicopter-borne circular saws, against a background of polluted oil derricks in the Caspian Sea.  This being the first real international exposure for Azerbaijan, you would think it would not have attracted visitors.

 

I have to say I knew pretty much nothing about Baku before F1 went there. I probably will never visit the place, but I do now think "hmm, that seems like an interesting place to visit". There must be others like me who are more motivated, so I would guess that the GP would have an effect. Of course, that's just from seeing the first one. But I can imagine that there must be one or two people who, like me, have been introduced to Baku by the GP and are now thinking "well, I could link a visit to the place with a trip to the GP too".



#73 pdac

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 13:08

Would happily swap 25 races with 10 teams for 20 races with 13 teams

 

You might, but you've not paid a ton of money for the commercial rights. I'd happily have 6 races with 8 teams.


Edited by pdac, 14 April 2022 - 13:09.


#74 Izzyeviel

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 13:36

In terms of human rights abuses, which african nation is worse? Do they have any race tracks?



#75 JimmyClark

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 14:01

In terms of human rights abuses, which african nation is worse? Do they have any race tracks?

 

Sudan comes bottom of the Human Freedom Index, and no I don't know of any circuits there. 

 

There is a circuit in Luanda, Angola though... 

https://en.wikipedia...dromo_de_Luanda


Edited by JimmyClark, 14 April 2022 - 14:02.


#76 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 14:03

Or The Gran Premio di Tripoli

01B9-6RPS.jpg

 

Almost old Hockenheim!  :p



#77 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 14:27

Almost old Hockenheim!  :p

Yeah, but misses the Sachs corner!



#78 Fastcake

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Posted 14 April 2022 - 17:33

Would happily swap 25 races with 10 teams for 20 races with 13 teams

I would too, but I don't see any correlation between the two...