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Are we going to end up with a field of unpainted cars?


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#1 pacificquay

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 07:49

So after McLaren and Aston Martin both took some paint off and increased the black on their liveries, now Bills has taken it to more of an extreme to save weight and says it’s gaining “quite a lot”.

 

https://the-race.com...uced-f1-livery/

 

 

The logical extension of this is we could end up with every car in the field running in naked carbon fibre…



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#2 FortiFord

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 07:53

Williams shortened their name to Bills? 😀

#3 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 07:57

Williams shortened their name to Bills? 😀


I like it :cool: :lol:

#4 BarryinIN

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 07:58

Williams shortened their name to Bills? 😀


Sure. It saved weight.

Edited by BarryinIN, 24 April 2022 - 07:58.


#5 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 08:00

Haas runs louvres on top of the side pods this weekend but these were unpainted as well.

Also helps the budget cap.

Ferrari finally has the black wings again, but these are unpainted carbon.

#6 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 08:00

Black Liveries Matter

#7 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 08:19

This needs to be stopped pronto,



#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 08:26

If it wasn’t for sponsorship driven commercial considerations, the teams would probably gladly run their cars unpainted, with just the minimum of identifying marks as required by the rules.

 

But as far as I’m concerned, it’s nice that the teams are actually having to work hard to reach the minimum weight. It shows they’re actually having to build cars to the limit of the regulations and in the first year of the rules they’re struggling to get there. It was all a bit silly when the teams were putting loads of ballast in the cars (sometimes in dangerous locations). There’s actually an engineering challenge when I comes to the weight now, and I like that.

 

I don’t subscribe to the OP’s “logic” that we’ll end up with a field of unpainted cars though. Ferrari seem plenty quick while still having a fully red car.



#9 Ali623

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 08:28

Don't think so, by the latter part of the season most teams should have shaved off the weight elsewhere and will re-add the paint. Otherwise, I'm sure the FIA can create a minimum paint weight rule  :rotfl:



#10 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 09:17

Mercedes should have continued with the black livery

#11 Risil

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 09:30

593-5937399_but-shes-14-you-sicko-sickos



#12 pdac

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 09:57

If it wasn’t for sponsorship driven commercial considerations, the teams would probably gladly run their cars unpainted, with just the minimum of identifying marks as required by the rules.

 

But as far as I’m concerned, it’s nice that the teams are actually having to work hard to reach the minimum weight. It shows they’re actually having to build cars to the limit of the regulations and in the first year of the rules they’re struggling to get there. It was all a bit silly when the teams were putting loads of ballast in the cars (sometimes in dangerous locations). There’s actually an engineering challenge when I comes to the weight now, and I like that.

 

I don’t subscribe to the OP’s “logic” that we’ll end up with a field of unpainted cars though. Ferrari seem plenty quick while still having a fully red car.

 

Indeed. I mentioned this in another thread. As far as I'm concerned, I'd happily watch a bunch of black cars. Perhaps the numbers would be more prominent then.



#13 Lennat

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 10:06

They might as well introduce a specific minimum weight limit for the paint.

#14 Dolph

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 11:15

Nico Rosberg said that he went with a black helmet in 2014-2016 to shed 60 grams of weight in his push to do everything to beat Hamilton. Apparently a saving of 0.002 seconds per lap. But I think it must have also been less fatiguing to have less weight stretching his neck. He also cut his socks to save 10 grams.

 

You can see bare carbon here in many areas:

 

Nico-Rosberg-helmet-2015.jpg


Edited by Dolph, 24 April 2022 - 11:16.


#15 smitten

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 11:18

Nico Rosberg said that he went with a black helmet in 2014-2016 to shed 60 grams of weight in his push to do everything to beat Hamilton. Apparently a saving of 0.002 seconds per lap. But I think it must have also been less fatiguing to have less weight stretching his neck. He also cut his socks to save 10 grams.

I'd have thought 60g was within the manufacturing tolerance.  So probably a phycological effect as much as anything.



#16 krapmeister

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 11:30

Mercedes should have continued with the black livery

 

Maybe that was what Hamilton said the other day when he set Toto off...



#17 Izzyeviel

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 11:35

On the brightside, we'll never see that Bills abomination



#18 Dolph

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 12:30

I'd have thought 60g was within the manufacturing tolerance.  So probably a phycological effect as much as anything.

 

No, no and no.

 

Whether 60g is a manufacturing tolerance for a top of the line helmet I do not know. I wouldn't think it is, to be honest. I see one place quoting the helmet weighs 1.2 kg. A 60g variance would be 5%, which I assume would be fine for a run of the mill product, but not for an F1 helmet.

 

However, if I was an F1 driver, I'd tell the manufacturer to send me the lightest helmets + I'd weigh them and use the lighter ones in races and the heavier ones in testing. 

 

Moreover, even if 60g is a manufacturing tolerance, then 60g saved is still 60g saved. I don't see how manufacturing tolerance has any effect on this. Example:

 

a) Helmet weighs 1200 grams. If I add 60 grams to it, it weighs 1260 grams.

b) Helmet weighs 1260 grams. If I add 60 grams to it, it weighs 1320 grams.

 

So adding weight adds weight. Not adding weight prevents weight from being added. 

 

Lastly, I think the gain in laptime of 0.002 seconds is absolutely negligible. It could once in a 10 year F1 career mean you make up a place on the starting grid. Although, Schumacher, Villeneuve and Frentzen would appreciate it. Nevertheless, I think the saved weight comes in handy at places like Interlagos where the driver's necks are strained to the limit and a 5% reduction in weight could be appreciated as it will in the end allow a driver to be slightly less fatigued and mean they can be more precise and I'd imagine a saving of one inaccuracy, meaning 0.1 seconds can easily occur during a race.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 12:42

You could probably save more than 60 grams with a good haircut.



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#20 Dolph

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 12:55

You could probably save more than 60 grams with a good haircut.

 

Interesting idea. After some digging:

 

"A single 6-inch hair strand from the average person could weigh around 0.000076 to 0.00013 ounces. A full human head of hair of that length would average around 6.1 and 13 ounces. Hair weighs more the longer it’ll be so you can expect it to be a little heavier if you have hair longer than 6 inches."

 

So 6 inches is between 172-370 grams. Every inch is then 30-60 grams. I don't see many drivers going around with long hair, though. Currently Hamilton (in the recent past Giovinazzi).



#21 Izzyeviel

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 13:54

Hammo adds 10lbs with all his bling. He could be p13 without it.



#22 NewMrMe

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 13:57

How much time could drivers save by being clean shaven as opposed to sporting beards/stubble as many currently do?



#23 Dolph

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 14:21

I think we must be careful here when thinking about weight saved. In the Rosberg era any weight saved by the driver could be either saved by the team on the car (if the car was overweight) or be placed in a low center of gravity position in the car.

 

Within the current rules the driver can weigh 80kg. If he weighs more (he wont), it means a performance loss. If he weighs less, ballast has to be added to the car around the seat area, where still a slightly more optimal cog can be achieved. 



#24 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 14:31

So a field of Manscaped drivers confirmed?

#25 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 14:45

The Williams livery looks so Simtek right now. Thankfully Albon is putting the car somewhat above the typical Simtek position.



#26 Risil

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 14:46

Nico Rosberg said that he went with a black helmet in 2014-2016 to shed 60 grams of weight in his push to do everything to beat Hamilton. Apparently a saving of 0.002 seconds per lap. But I think it must have also been less fatiguing to have less weight stretching his neck. He also cut his socks to save 10 grams.

 

This sounds like my father-in-law going around his house turning off any plug sockets that aren't currently in use.



#27 Secretariat

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 16:33

Nico Rosberg said that he went with a black helmet in 2014-2016 to shed 60 grams of weight in his push to do everything to beat Hamilton. Apparently a saving of 0.002 seconds per lap. But I think it must have also been less fatiguing to have less weight stretching his neck. He also cut his socks to save 10 grams.

 

You can see bare carbon here in many areas:

 

 

I remember Nico discussing this in a interview/podcast. I also recall him discussing not doing leg exercises as he had gotten too bulky (or something to that effect). However, I always wondered what a driver thought about these types of efforts of weight reduction being spoiled by a gust of wind on the lap that these types of efforts mattered.



#28 PlatenGlass

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 16:34

The Williams livery looks so Simtek right now. Thankfully Albon is putting the car somewhat above the typical Simtek position.

I was thinking the same! Not sure I liked seeing it at Imola though...



#29 CoolBreeze

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 16:51

I think Nico is just over exaggerating the whole situation. 



#30 Beri

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 16:58

With all the weight saving issues going on, cutting Hamilton his dreads would save a couple of pounds of the bat. Just saying, if any Mercedes engineer is watching here, I'd start there instead of working overtime to shed some grams off the cars ;)

#31 Primo

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:01

No, no and no.

 

Whether 60g is a manufacturing tolerance for a top of the line helmet I do not know. I wouldn't think it is, to be honest. I see one place quoting the helmet weighs 1.2 kg. A 60g variance would be 5%, which I assume would be fine for a run of the mill product, but not for an F1 helmet.

 

However, if I was an F1 driver, I'd tell the manufacturer to send me the lightest helmets + I'd weigh them and use the lighter ones in races and the heavier ones in testing. 

 

Moreover, even if 60g is a manufacturing tolerance, then 60g saved is still 60g saved. I don't see how manufacturing tolerance has any effect on this. Example:

 

a) Helmet weighs 1200 grams. If I add 60 grams to it, it weighs 1260 grams.

b) Helmet weighs 1260 grams. If I add 60 grams to it, it weighs 1320 grams.

 

So adding weight adds weight. Not adding weight prevents weight from being added. 

 

Lastly, I think the gain in laptime of 0.002 seconds is absolutely negligible. It could once in a 10 year F1 career mean you make up a place on the starting grid. Although, Schumacher, Villeneuve and Frentzen would appreciate it. Nevertheless, I think the saved weight comes in handy at places like Interlagos where the driver's necks are strained to the limit and a 5% reduction in weight could be appreciated as it will in the end allow a driver to be slightly less fatigued and mean they can be more precise and I'd imagine a saving of one inaccuracy, meaning 0.1 seconds can easily occur during a race.

A damper on a F1 cars weighs around 240 grams. Initially they are adjustable, but after finding their baseline some teams will use a non-adjustable damper, factory made with their settings, in order to save around 40 gram. A damper cost way over $10000, in parts, development excluded. Had there not been a minimum weight for driver+gear, I think we would see many black helmets.



#32 Dolph

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 20:07

I remember Nico discussing this in a interview/podcast. I also recall him discussing not doing leg exercises as he had gotten too bulky (or something to that effect). However, I always wondered what a driver thought about these types of efforts of weight reduction being spoiled by a gust of wind on the lap that these types of efforts mattered.

 

 

I think in top sports its all about being prepared and controlling what you can control - giving yourself the best opportunity. Nothing in life is guaranteed.



#33 Albertino

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 21:43

This thread is hilarious, but for a few years now we have a minimum weight of the driver and seat. Otherwise Tsunoda would be the fastest guy out there  :rotfl: