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Has Racing Got Any Better?


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#201 MensRea

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 12:18

If all the cars converge and no one has an advantage over the person in front of them, then how would overtakes happen? Waiting for the odd mistake that happens once in never?

Even in indycar, there isn't performance convergence. Cars can be separated by up to 2 seconds in qualy.

In F2. Same thing.

So when there are 1-2 second gaps with spec cars, what exactly is the problem with that same thing with constructor cars?


Not sure where I wrote there is a problem , or that I have a problem with it .
Personally I'd like to see smaller gaps , which in my view would make it potentially a bit more exciting.

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#202 absinthedude

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 13:13

If performance convergence will happen, it will take time. Though honestly I don't understand where this idea comes from....that the PUs must all have similar performance and the cars must all have similar lap times. That has *never* been the case in F1 at any time. It's kind of the point.

 

We're four races into the biggest shake up in the rules in 30+ years. That has meant a shake up in the running order, which has introduced some unpredictability....and it is also clear that cars can follow each other through corners much better than any time in the last 30-odd years....which is when the complaints about turbulence started. It's taken that freakin' long to sort it out. The racing is better. There's still room for improvement but the rule change did what was hoped. There are issues to iron out, but the new rules certainly did what was needed of them.



#203 Risil

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 14:08

If performance convergence will happen, it will take time. Though honestly I don't understand where this idea comes from....that the PUs must all have similar performance and the cars must all have similar lap times. That has *never* been the case in F1 at any time. It's kind of the point.

 

Whether or not we need equal or equal-performance machinery to appreciate the racing is probably worth another thread...



#204 pdac

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 15:23

Whether or not we need equal or equal-performance machinery to appreciate the racing is probably worth another thread...

 

If you need equal-performance machinery, then all you need to do is dictate the exact car design in the regulations and use a single PU and tyre supplier - but allow the teams to choose the colour of the mirror stalks.



#205 MKSixer

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 15:31

So, on this forum, overtaking equals racing.

We've actually never had a situation of an overtaken car able to stay close behind and pressure the car that's just passed them, and we do this year. In previous seasons, once a car gets through, it just sails off into the distance quickly. Counter attacks might have lasted 2 slow corners, now they can last several laps.

For me, that's great racing.

I think this captures the situation perfectly.  Well said.



#206 BerniesDad

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 15:56

Yep agree with the above.

One other thing to add :

 - Racing - much better.

 - TV Coverage - much worse

 

The net effect of this is that the entertainment value of sitting down for 80 minutes to watch a race is probably less than before. I end the race feeling angry rather than happy.



#207 MKSixer

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 16:10

Yep agree with the above.

One other thing to add :

 - Racing - much better.

 - TV Coverage - much worse

 

The net effect of this is that the entertainment value of sitting down for 80 minutes to watch a race is probably less than before. I end the race feeling angry rather than happy.

Indeed.  If we factor in the TV coverage the overall experience is much worse.  I find myself watching individual cars on the laptop to improve the experience.  Which still doesn't help that much!

 

It would be better to get drunk camera operators, have a feed on them, and let us enjoy the drunken revelry as they attempt to shoot the race. At least we'd know what we are in for at that point.  :drunk:   :drunk:   :drunk:



#208 boomn

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 16:12

Even when they're not making successful overtakes, cars following closely adds a lot of tension and excitement to the race for me.  It feels like there is a greater chance of not just an overtake but of pressuring one of the cars into a mistake



#209 PitViperRacing

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Posted 10 May 2022 - 23:04

I think the racing is great this season. Lots of close following.

Tbh people that are keen to see drivers in equal machinery should watch iracing with fixed set-up. You'll never get a situation in real life where the cars are equal, even in spec series. There are too many variables.

#210 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 11 May 2022 - 00:38

They should make it complex in F1 with DRS quotas for every 10 lap segments of the race. 2 defensive and 5 attacking DRS quotas for each 10 lap segments, no hoarding.

They should also add an extra 1 or 2 attacking DRS uses to the quota if the driver manages to keep the standard deviation of the gap to the car in front below a target number, to be determined by race director before each race.  Also, the attacking DRS use should not count against the quota if it immediately follows a defensive DRS use, unless the defensive DRS use has been used twice in a row.



#211 YamahaV10

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Posted 11 May 2022 - 02:36

So digging up this thread from the dirt. Was this now the third time a race was won with an on-track pass for the lead, out of 6 races? (5 GP, one sprint)
Jeddah, Imola sprint and Miami.


It's undeniable. So ppl saying it's not better aren't arguing in good faith

#212 YamahaV10

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Posted 11 May 2022 - 02:39

Even when they're not making successful overtakes, cars following closely adds a lot of tension and excitement to the race for me. It feels like there is a greater chance of not just an overtake but of pressuring one of the cars into a mistake


Yeah. Every time 2 cars start to battle , a third car catches them. And sometimes a 4th. And then you have a good pack race going on.

#213 RA2

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Posted 11 May 2022 - 02:48

They should also add an extra 1 or 2 attacking DRS uses to the quota if the driver manages to keep the standard deviation of the gap to the car in front below a target number, to be determined by race director before each race. Also, the attacking DRS use should not count against the quota if it immediately follows a defensive DRS use, unless the defensive DRS use has been used twice in a row.


More complex the better. Also remove the DRS zones and allow the drivers to attack or defend the the entire lap as they feel fit.

#214 absinthedude

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Posted 11 May 2022 - 11:11

It's not just overtaking that makes for exciting racing.....the cars being able to follow each other reasonably well through medium and fast corners means tension builds up. There is *no way* we'd have been treated to Leclerc reeling in and battling with Max in the latter stages of Miami with any other cars of the last 25+ years. Ultimately Charles was not successful, but was it not exciting? Instead of easy DRS passes, we are once again getting the beginnings of battles lasting several laps....rather than a car making an easy DRS pass and galloping off into the distance. 

 

We are still yet to see how these cars will go at places like Monaco, Red Bull Ring and Hungaroring....but it does look like the rules have done their job. I've got a hell of a lot to criticise F1 about right now...but they got that right......after only 30 years of being told what was wrong....



#215 tweiss

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Posted 11 May 2022 - 12:42

So, on this forum, overtaking equals racing.

We've actually never had a situation of an overtaken car able to stay close behind and pressure the car that's just passed them, and we do this year. In previous seasons, once a car gets through, it just sails off into the distance quickly. Counter attacks might have lasted 2 slow corners, now they can last several laps.

For me, that's great racing.

Very well said



#216 Heyli

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 13:42

I think the racing in spain was actually quite good? felt a lot more exciting than previous years, but I didnt check any of the stats. We again had some multi laps battles, which are good fun to see, not just flyby's, but overtaking was definitely possible. 



#217 TheAviator

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 14:18

Absolutely. Spain was good race for first time since forever.

#218 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 14:22

Seems we've passed litmus test number 1. The other is Hungaroring. I hope nobody is expecting miracles at Monaco. A tight street circuit is a tight street circuit.



#219 Timorous

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 14:28

Seems we've passed litmus test number 1. The other is Hungaroring. I hope nobody is expecting miracles at Monaco. A tight street circuit is a tight street circuit.

 

Monaco will be somewhat interesting due to the field spread. If a team go for a quali setup but have worse deg I can see overcuts working out quite well, especially if those teams cannot pull a gap to much slower cars behind.

 

Of course what will happen is the race will setup an interesting strategic conundrum and then a safety car will ruin it.

 

In terms of is the racing better, yes I think it is. Also in Spain there was far less clumsy race direction. We got to see many of the good overtakes live. Still an issue with switching to the front runners pitting in the middle of an on track battle but it did not seem as bad as some of the previous races.



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#220 Afterburner

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 14:50

It would be better to get drunk camera operators, have a feed on them, and let us enjoy the drunken revelry as they attempt to shoot the race. At least we'd know what we are in for at that point.  :drunk:   :drunk:   :drunk:

Based on my experience working with said camera operators, this means you'd get a lot of close-ups of female spectators in the grandstands...

#221 Risil

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 15:09

Seems we've passed litmus test number 1. The other is Hungaroring. I hope nobody is expecting miracles at Monaco. A tight street circuit is a tight street circuit.

 

On Ascension Day? Maybe that weekend is miracled out.



#222 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 15:33

On Ascension Day? Maybe that weekend is miracled out.

 

Maybe if they still held Monaco on Ascension weekend by design, though it does land there this year. But we're not even getting Thursday practice any more.



#223 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 16:10

Barcelona would be a lot more interesting anytime that 3 stop strategies become necessary/worthwhile.  Dont think this had much to do with the new cars.  Combined with some mistakes/incidents mixing things up and all.  

 

There was never any issue following closely through chicanes where the aero aspect doesn't matter much.  The problem was always that if you dont have superior rear traction to the car ahead of you, then they'd get such a headstart onto the main straight and you didn't have time to make it up, along with not having any hard braking zone at the end.  



#224 chrcol

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 16:16

This thread I couldnt find yesterday and ended up posting in the DRS one.

 

I liked that Russell could defend against Max, but for those who are craving for a new coming of overtaking, we had the magic test yesterday when Max DRS failed, and he couldnt overtake a 1s slower car on these new regulations.  He seemed to even struggle to get close and stay there.



#225 Dan333SP

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 16:45

This thread I couldnt find yesterday and ended up posting in the DRS one.

 

I liked that Russell could defend against Max, but for those who are craving for a new coming of overtaking, we had the magic test yesterday when Max DRS failed, and he couldnt overtake a 1s slower car on these new regulations.  He seemed to even struggle to get close and stay there.

 

Not sure that's a reasonable take, seemed to me he was able to follow closely without cooking his tires, and couldn't get a move done without DRS largely because of the final chicane stringing cars out before the main straight. We obviously still need DRS but I still see these new cars as a vast improvement on the prior generation in their ability to follow. 



#226 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 16:48

Not sure that's a reasonable take, seemed to me he was able to follow closely without cooking his tires, and couldn't get a move done without DRS largely because of the final chicane stringing cars out before the main straight. We obviously still need DRS but I still see these new cars as a vast improvement on the prior generation in their ability to follow. 

indeed. I think Barcelona, along with Monaco is probably the worst circuit for overtaking. I feel even Hungaroring is better, as the last corner doesn't create that harmonica effect. 

these cars were able to follow quite a bit closer.

 

re: Max vs Russel - that's a bit misleading to say it was interesting because of the lack of DRS. The only moments when Max actually tried a move - his DRS was working - but it was so on/off that he could not use it first to get close then attack (probably didn't work 2 laps in a row)



#227 Anderis

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Posted 23 May 2022 - 17:44

One overlooked aspect I love in this season is that the drivers seem to make costly mistakes again and the cars seem to break down again. Not sure how quickly teams and drivers will adapt and how long this lasts but I enjoy it while it lasts. Back to the good old times when you coulnd't predict what was going to happen next in the race.