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Russell: physical effects of porpoising “not sustainable” for drivers


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:34

I suspect I’m not the only one who has been wondering about this. Obviously doesn’t only affect Mercedes, the videos this weekend looked nuts. 

 

@motorsport

Mercedes #F1 driver Russell has warned that the physical effects of porpoising are "not sustainable" for  drivers, as he revealed he is starting to feel chest and back pains.

 
"It's the most extreme I've ever felt it."
 


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#2 CoolBreeze

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:37

duno if other drivers have been complaining though



#3 SophieB

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:40

duno if other drivers have been complaining though

 

Yes, fair point. And tbh, other than 'go slower' I'm not sure much can reasonably be done. Still, not good if it's injuring drivers.



#4 Disgrace

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:40

Mercedes can raise the ride height if they need.



#5 ARTGP

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:41

Russell is thoroughly Mercedes bred  :rotfl: . Knows the politics game like the back of his hand. No George, other cars are not bouncing like strippers. It's just yours I'm afraid. If the Merc is a safety hazard, then they should pull the cars from the race.  


Edited by ARTGP, 24 April 2022 - 17:42.


#6 flyboym3

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:42

There was another article can't remember where I read it now but someone linked to the medical industry and sports science said that if this carries on then the F1 atheletes will suffer when they get older and that it isn't much difference to other atheletes who go on to develop nerve damage and dementia when they get older.

 

TBH when I read it I was surprised it didnt gain more traction.



#7 statman

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:42

sounds like a Mercedes problem



#8 SophieB

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:43

There was another article can't remember where I read it now but someone linked to the medical industry and sports science said that if this carries on then the F1 atheletes will suffer when they get older and that it isn't much difference to other atheletes who go on to develop nerve damage and dementia when they get older.

 

TBH when I read it I was surprised it didnt gain more traction.

 

Yikes. Can you dig that out?



#9 Baddoer

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:48

Porpoising cars should be denied to compete. It's not safe.



#10 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:50

Hamilton’s car looked outright dangerous in the replays on the straight…

#11 CoolBreeze

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:51

it should be a problem when the winner and the fastest car complains. But this is just russell crying wolff.



#12 P123

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:53

it should be a problem when the winner and the fastest car complains. But this is just russell crying wolff.

 

Ah, so it's not Russell talking about his own experiences in his own car? 



#13 SuperMax

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 17:56

To be fair to George, it does seem pretty harsh on the body, especially the neck and spine. Guess the shocks will be pretty bad for the brain too. Anyways definitely no regulation change required, teams need to fix it or change ride height.

#14 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:02

I think George will need a few laps in other cars. Mercedes has the most violent bounces by far, with car slamming into the ground. At other teams it more looks like the land on suspension blocks or the like.

#15 Retrofly

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:05

Has there been any data on the effects of the bouncing?



#16 ensign14

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:09

The forces unleashed by ground effects - and the physical effects on the drivers - were a factor in the move to flat bottoms in 1983.  Suspensions were ultra-stiff so drivers were getting the bumps right through them.



#17 jpm2019

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:10

They can fix it by either offer performance or build a better car. If the bouncing is really dangerous for car (no big problems yet) or driver (i can imagine this is not good long term) the FIA should demand teams fixing it. However this will only set Mercedes back more. Maybe Russel should complain to Wolff. 



#18 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:22

Perhaps they need a blow-off valve in the floor that opens up a bit as soon as the pressures force the floor down.



#19 juicy sushi

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:24

 

I suspect I’m not the only one who has been wondering about this. Obviously doesn’t only affect Mercedes, the videos this weekend looked nuts. 

 

@motorsport

Mercedes #F1 driver Russell has warned that the physical effects of porpoising are "not sustainable" for  drivers, as he revealed he is starting to feel chest and back pains.

 
"It's the most extreme I've ever felt it."
 

 

Well then, tell the team to raise the ride height.



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#20 NewYorkF1

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:27

I tend to agree with him. Looks very taxing on the body. But he probably should be telling the team. They can fix it easily…

#21 pdac

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:28

Well then, tell the team to raise the ride height.

 

Indeed. Perhaps that was the 'discussion' that Lewis was having - maybe George and Lewis need to tell Toto that they need to give up on the prospect of earning points until they have sorted out some of the problems with the car.



#22 FLB

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:37

The forces unleashed by ground effects - and the physical effects on the drivers - were a factor in the move to flat bottoms in 1983.  Suspensions were ultra-stiff so drivers were getting the bumps right through them.

Before he died, Gilles Villeneuve complained to his agent Gaston Parent that it was so bad he had problems concentrating. He had blurry vision from it.



#23 Ali623

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:40

Meh, pretty much all teams will have it sorted by the end of the year, until then I guess he’ll just need to tell his mechanics to raise his car’s ride height until they fix it.

#24 Celloman

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:40

They can fix it if they wanted to, Alfa, Alpine and Red Bull got around it in the first pre-season test. I'm pretty sure there are things they could do with the suspension as well, but if they deem it costs lap time, then deal with it. Anyway, it will be interesting come Baku if they haven't found some compromise by then.


Edited by Celloman, 24 April 2022 - 21:19.


#25 jwill189

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:45

Russell is thoroughly Mercedes bred  :rotfl: . Knows the politics game like the back of his hand. No George, other cars are not bouncing like strippers. It's just yours I'm afraid. If the Merc is a safety hazard, then they should pull the cars from the race.  

 

I think we all learned how much of a politician Russell was after the conclusion of last year's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.



#26 flyboym3

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:48

They can fix it if they wanted to, Alfa, Alpine and Red Bull got around it in the first pre-season test. I'm pretty sure there are things they could do with the suspension as well, but if they deem it costs lap, then deal with it. Anyway, it will be interesting come Baku if they haven't found some compromise by then.

I suspect none of the porpoising teams will sacrifice lap-time unless forced to do so by the FIA - we've seen this in the past with teams willing to take liberties with car setup e.g. dicking around with extreme camber/toe or pressures even if it increases risks of their drivers.  It's in their DNA to do just do whatever to go faster and in the end the FIA always had to step in.


Edited by flyboym3, 24 April 2022 - 18:49.


#27 ARTGP

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:52

I suspect none of the porpoising teams will sacrifice lap-time unless forced to do so by the FIA - we've seen this in the past with teams willing to take liberties with car setup e.g. dicking around with extreme camber/toe or pressures even if it increases risks of their drivers.  It's in their DNA to do just do whatever to go faster and in the end the FIA always had to step in.

 

Are you proposing that the FIA enforce a porpoising limit monitored by the GPS system? That would be one solution. 


Edited by ARTGP, 24 April 2022 - 18:53.


#28 prty

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:58

There was another article can't remember where I read it now but someone linked to the medical industry and sports science said that if this carries on then the F1 atheletes will suffer when they get older and that it isn't much difference to other atheletes who go on to develop nerve damage and dementia when they get older.
 
TBH when I read it I was surprised it didnt gain more traction.


Yikes. Can you dig that out?


Guess you mean this one?

Wonder if porposing is 100% harmless in the long term for drivers.



#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:59

 

I suspect I’m not the only one who has been wondering about this. Obviously doesn’t only affect Mercedes, the videos this weekend looked nuts. 

 

@motorsport

Mercedes #F1 driver Russell has warned that the physical effects of porpoising are "not sustainable" for  drivers, as he revealed he is starting to feel chest and back pains.

 
"It's the most extreme I've ever felt it."
 

 

 

Just another reason for the teams to solve the problems quickly.



#30 Venom

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 18:59

While I can sympathise with the driver’s who are in porpoising cars, we know what Russell’s premise is to saying this and I have no time for it. It’s not a universal problem. There is no grounds to change any regulations. If Mercedes have serious concerns about their drivers health then they can prioritise it over the performance of their car.

#31 Rumblestrip

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:01

They can fix it if they wanted to, Alfa, Alpine and Red Bull got around it in the first pre-season test. I'm pretty sure there are things they could do with the suspension as well, but if they deem it costs lap, then deal with it. Anyway, it will be interesting come Baku if they haven't found some compromise by then.


True, Monza and Spa could be tricky too.

#32 Primo

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:10

J-Damper-Banned-2022.jpg

The thing in the middle takes care of the load when both wheels are equally compressed, something that happens when downforce kicks in. There used to be a spring and a damper but, for some reason, the damper is banned for this season. But not the springy spring. I find that strange since that would be a major component in negating porpoising. Or maybe that is the reason.

https://www.grandpri...e-jounce-damper



#33 KLF1F

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:11

... this is just russell crying wolff.

Bravo!  :rotfl:



#34 Scotracer

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:12

As Martin says, throttle goes in both directions.

#35 Requiem84

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:14

Mercedes running a dangerous car for its drivers?

If Mercedes isn’t able to run a car which is safe for its drivers, it shouldn’t run at all.

#36 flyboym3

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:19

Are you proposing that the FIA enforce a porpoising limit monitored by the GPS system? That would be one solution. 

I am proposing no technical solution as I'll leave that to the experts.

Only that in my opinion if the FIA really cares about health or safety then they will need to step-in and have a dialogue with the teams to agree a solution.


Edited by flyboym3, 24 April 2022 - 19:19.


#37 AlbertPark

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:21

Russel is free to leave the sport at any time.

Maybe he can go drive a rally car.

#38 MattPete

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:22

Porpoising seems to be a problem with some cars more than others.

 

I don't remember porpoising being an issue in Champcar, and the Lola, Reyards, and Panoz had some pretty serious tunnels.  In fact, the Panoz DP01 was designed to make 50% of its downforce through ground effect.

 

The pictures that I've seen of the DP01's floor like pretty much identical to the floors I've seen from some of the 2022 F1 cars.  The only discernable difference I can see is that the center skid plate is lower than the sides of the tunnels, giving it a stepped floor.  I would imagine that that would prevent the tunnels from stalling, as it would naturally limit their height from the track. If porpoising really is an issue (across the board, not just for a couple of manufacturers), perhaps the FIA should tweak the rules by increasng the thickness of the center skid plate.

 

australia1.jpg

 

panoz_7.jpg


Edited by MattPete, 24 April 2022 - 19:23.


#39 Bartonz20let

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:24

2 things...

Haven't a few others made noises about it, sure Carlos and a few others have mentioned it being problematic, if there are serious issues for drivers (grid-wide) then the FIA must step in.

Secondly, I echo what Requiem is saying, in fact, I actually think the Merc IS dangerous and there are already grounds to say it shouldn't be on track.

The porpoising is making breaking unstable, Merc are playing with fire.

Edited by Bartonz20let, 24 April 2022 - 19:24.


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#40 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:26

Porpoising seems to be a problem with some cars more than others.

 

I don't remember porpoising being an issue in Champcar, and the Lola, Reyards, and Panoz had some pretty serious tunnels.  In fact, the Panoz DP01 was designed to make 50% of its downforce through ground effect.

 

The pictures that I've seen of the DP01's floor like pretty much identical to the floors I've seen from some of the 2022 F1 cars.  The only discernable difference I can see is that the center skid plate is lower than the sides of the tunnels, giving it a stepped floor.  I would imagine that that would prevent the tunnels from stalling, as it would naturally limit their height from the track. If porpoising really is an issue (across the board, not just for a couple of manufacturers), perhaps the FIA should tweak the rules by increasng the thickness of the center skid plate.

 

 

 

 

 

It's not an impossible problem to solve, as the cited examples show. We're just 4 Grands Prix into a season where there's a lot of inexperience with this sort of car within F1. They'll get on top of it as there's nothing magic that Reynard, Lola, Panoz, Swift, Dallara or any of the others had.



#41 juicy sushi

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:27

Porpoising seems to be a problem with some cars more than others.

 

I don't remember porpoising being an issue in Champcar, and the Lola, Reyards, and Panoz had some pretty serious tunnels.  In fact, the Panoz DP01 was designed to make 50% of its downforce through ground effect.

 

The pictures that I've seen of the DP01's floor like pretty much identical to the floors I've seen from some of the 2022 F1 cars.  The only discernable difference I can see is that the center skid plate is lower than the sides of the tunnels, giving it a stepped floor.  I would imagine that that would prevent the tunnels from stalling, as it would naturally limit their height from the track. If porpoising really is an issue (across the board, not just for a couple of manufacturers), perhaps the FIA should tweak the rules by increasng the thickness of the center skid plate.

The raised outer sidepods vs floor between the tunnels was a CART rule that was specifically there to help reduce the porpoising issues and deter people trying to run the car low enough to get the floor to seal.  It worked very well.



#42 bananaSpanner

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:27

Yikes. Can you dig that out?


It was related to the skeleton bob/luge racing, where they've a term for it - "sled head". Basically repeated micro-concissions causing brain damage, a la CTE in combat sports/Rugby/American Football etc.

F1 shouldn't get complacent about this, so they probably will...

#43 flyboym3

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:29

Before he died, Gilles Villeneuve complained to his agent Gaston Parent that it was so bad he had problems concentrating. He had blurry vision from it.

He probably suffered from the below too.

 

https://www.nytimes....&pgtype=Article

 

https://www.nytimes....e run can cause.

 

Cumulative Brain Injury from Motor Vehicle-Induced Whole-Body Vibration

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5664147/

 

That last one is interesting read.


Edited by flyboym3, 24 April 2022 - 19:42.


#44 AlbertPark

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:29

Right, then rally drivers must be dropping like flies.

See this for what it is. Mercedes lobbying for a rule change because their car is ****.

#45 cbo

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:29

I am proposing no technical solution as I'll leave that to the experts.
Only that in my opinion if the FIA really cares about health or safety then they will need to step-in and have a dialogue with the teams to agree a solution.


Which is propably what Russel and Mercedes is trying to accomplish by trying to make it a general problem and a health issue. I.e. get FIA to fix Mercedes'problems 😄

#46 bananaSpanner

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:32

Right, then rally drivers must be dropping like flies.

See this for what it is. Mercedes lobbying for a rule change because their car is ****.


Not remotely similar to what rally drivers experience. You're not even close to making a valid point.

#47 Rumblestrip

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:32

I could see Alpine being quite annoyed if the FIA mandated a solution to porpoising such as a stepped floor. They’ve already been hit by the technical change allowing floor supports which they originally solved with a more rigid, and heavier, floor. And I don’t believe Alpine have any porpoising issues.

#48 Bartonz20let

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:33

Right, then rally drivers must be dropping like flies.

See this for what it is. Mercedes lobbying for a rule change because their car is ****.


Huumm... whilst I agree Merc would love a rule change, you shouldn't rule out the potential for brain injury without the data to say its not an issue.

#49 P123

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:33

Right, then rally drivers must be dropping like flies.

See this for what it is. Mercedes lobbying for a rule change because their car is ****.

 

They would if they had the suspension of an F1 car.  :D



#50 flyboym3

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Posted 24 April 2022 - 19:35

Which is propably what Russel and Mercedes is trying to accomplish by trying to make it a general problem and a health issue. I.e. get FIA to fix Mercedes'problems

Mercedes isn't the only team that is inducing the shaken baby syndrome to their drivers - it's more than half the grid.

All those drivers whose heads are being shaken - the human brain isn't geared to deal with that, it will be having a health impact.

But drivers have bigger balls than brains so we know they will just do whatever and carry on.


Edited by flyboym3, 24 April 2022 - 19:36.