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Mildren Waggott


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#1 TerryS

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 01:33

I see the ex Max Stewart Mildren Waggott has come up for sale again:
 
.The Mildren Waggott - Australia's Number 1 Motorsport Marketplace - my105.com

 

 

I am intrigued by the sentence it has been driven "at tracks all over the world by a number of drivers" in the ad.

 

In addition to Max Stewart and Max Pearson, I can only think of Allan Grice and Tony Stewart as other drivers.

 

Are there any others I may have forgotten?


Edited by TerryS, 27 April 2022 - 03:49.


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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 02:32

KB drove it at the September Warwick Farm in 1968...

 

But you're right about the phrasing of the ad. "...all over the world..." and the Waggott engine was a 'TC4V', not an 'FVA'. And obviously it was built in 1968.

 

Stewart did run it in Japan, of course, along with New Zealand and, I think, Singapore. That's only two or three time zones, really.



#3 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 03:50

Ken Shirvington in 1974 on.

 

Raced in Australia, New Zealand, Macau, Malaysian, Singapore and Japan.

 

Probably more correct to have the ad read "raced at tracks throughout South-East Asia."


Edited by Porsche718, 27 April 2022 - 03:51.


#4 lyntonh

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 07:40

Not to forget that Max raced the car in 1970 and 1971 with a 2 litre engine after ANF1 changed to the either/or formula for 1970.



#5 lyntonh

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 08:21

929848-AF-F0-BD-4-C6-F-947-F-F0-DB086-BF

 

Here's Max Stewart practising the car for the 1971 Tasman race at Warwick Farm.

 

It's been discussed previously, here or elsewhere.......

 

The current setup of the restored car, with the higher rear wing on lightweight framing,

the fitted engine cover, and the lack of radiator exhaust opening in the nose,

is a configuration difficult to find in photographs from the period.

 

In my time from mid-1969 until the car moved to Allan Grice, it was basically in the form shown in the photo above,

with the rear wing set at middle or lower heights, and supported on blades, or with tube supports not braced to the rollover bar.

So long as someone races it, my pedantry can take a back seat.



#6 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 09:30

Yes lyntonh, the only time the Mildren ran with high wings was at Bathurst in April 1969 as below.

 

image-2022-04-27-192219320.png

 

(photo courtesy of Autopics.com)

 

Even at its next outing in Japan, all wings had been removed even though Bartlett still retained his on the "Mono".

 

And of course the international ban on high wings was introduced in mid May.

 

Another thing about the car as presented in its For Sale ad is I cannot find any photo with an engine cover. Not in Alfa Twin Cam, or Ford Twin Cam, or any Waggott configuration. But Perhaps there was an occassion .....?

 

Also, understanding the inability to retain the original coolant flow from the radiator to engine as designed originally, one would think it possible to have fabricated a slightly less ugly pipe down the left hand side of the car. 



#7 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 09:39

For anyone interested ... 

 

Mildren "Rennmax BN3"

 

1968 Sep  8 Warwick Farm     Racing Car Scr   Alec Mildren Racing  1 Kevin Bartlett  Alfa Romeo   1600  1   3

1969 Feb  2 Lakeside         Tasman Series R5 Alec Mildren Racing    Max Stewart     Alfa Romeo   1600 10   6

1969 Feb  9 Warwick Farm     Tasman Series R6 Alec Mildren Racing    Max Stewart     Alfa Romeo   1600 15 dns

1969 Mar  3 Symmons Plains   Gold Star Prelim Alec Mildren Racing  8 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600      5 

1969 Mar  3 Symmons Plains   Gold Star R1     Alec Mildren Racing  8 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600  5 dnf fuel metering unit

1969 Apr  7 Mount Panorama   Gold Star R2     Alec Mildren Racing 44 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600  3 dnf accident

1969 May  3 Fuji             Japanese GP      Alec Mildren Racing    Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600      9

1969 Sep 20 Sandown Park     Gold Star R3     Alec Mildren Racing 11 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600  5 dnf

1969 Oct 13 Mallala          Gold Star R4     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600  5   3

1969 Oct 26 Surfers Paradise Gold Star R5     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1900  1   2

1969 Dec  7 Warwick Farm     Gold Star R6     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600  1   2

1970 Jan  3 Levin            Tasman Series R1 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1900  2   2

1970 Jan 10 Pukekohe         Tasman Series R2 Alec Mildren Racing  5 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1900  7   9

1970 Jan 17 Wigram           Tasman Series R3 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1900  8   3

1970 Jan 24 Teretonga        Tasman Series R4 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1900  7 dnf spun off

1970 Feb  8 Surfers Paradise Tasman Series R5 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  8   9

1970 Feb 15 Warwick Farm     Tasman Series R6 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  3   2

1970 Feb 22 Sandown Park     Tasman Series R7 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000 10   4

1970 Mar  2 Symmons Plains   Gold Star R1     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  6   4

1970 May  3 Fuji             Japanese GP      Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000      2

1970 Jun  7 Lakeside         Gold Star R2     Alec Mildren Racing  9 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  1   1

1970 Jun 28 Oran Park        Gold Star R3     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  2   1

1970 Sep  6 Warwick Farm     Gold Star R4     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  2 dnf injector

1970 Sep 13 Sandown Park     Gold Star R5     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  6 dnf bearing

1970 Oct 12 Mallala          Gold Star R6     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 1600  7   2

1970 Nov 22 Warwick Farm     Australian GP    Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  6  10

1970 Nov 28 Macau            Macau GP         Alec Mildren Racing  8 Kevin Bartlett  Waggott TC4V 1850  2 dnf

1971 Jan  2 Levin            Tasman Series R1 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000    dna

1971 Jan  9 Pukekohe         Tasman Series R2 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000    dna

1971 Feb 14 Warwick Farm     Tasman Series R5 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  9 dns

1971 Feb 21 Sandown Park     Tasman Series R6 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000 11   7

1971 Deb 28 Surfers Paradise Tasman Series R7 Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  7   8

1971 May  5 Fuji             Japanese GP      Alec Mildren Racing    Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000      9

1971 Jun  6 Lakeside         Gold Star Prelim Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  2   2

1971 Jun  6 Lakeside         Gold Star R1     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  2   2

1971 Jun 27 Oran Park        Gold Star R2     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  2   1

1971 Aug 29 Surfers Paradise Gold Star R3     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  4   4

1971 Sep  5 Warwick Farm     Sam Hordern Tr   Alec Mildren Racing  3 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  1   3

1971 Sep 12 Sandown Park     Gold Star R4     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  4 dnf flywheel

1971 Sep 26 Symmons Plains   Gold Star R5     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  5   6

1971 Oct 11 Mallala          Gold Star R6     Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  4   3

1971 Nov 21 Warwick Farm     Australian GP    Alec Mildren Racing  6 Max Stewart     Waggott TC4V 2000  4   5

1972 Feb  6 Surfers Paradise Tasman Series R5 Max Stewart Motors  64 Tony Stewart    Waggott TC4V 2000 15  13

1972 Feb 13 Warwick Farm     Tasman Series R6 Max Stewart Motors  64 Tony Stewart    Waggott TC4V 2000 12   8

1972 Feb 20 Sandown Park     Tasman Series R7 Max Stewart Motors  64 Tony Stewart    Waggott TC4V 2000 19  12

1972 Feb 27 Adelaide         Tasman Series R8 Max Stewart Motors  64 Tony Stewart    Waggott TC4V 2000 16   9 not class.

1972 Apr  2                  Singapore GP     Max Stewart Motors  12 Max Stewart     Ford TC      1600  3   1

1972 Apr  9 Shah Alam        Malaysian GP     Max Stewart Motors   6 Max Stewart     Ford TC      1600  2 dnf condensor

1972 May  3 Fuji             Japanese GP      Max Stewart Motors     Max Stewart     Ford TC      1600  5 dnf accident

1972 Jun 25 Oran Park        Gold Star R2                            Allan Grice     Ford TC      1600 16  10

1972 Aug 27 Surfers Paradise Gold Star R3                         68 Allan Grice     Ford TC      1600 10   9

1972 Nov  5 Warwick Farm     Gold Star R6                            Allan Grice     Ford TC      1600 12 dns

1973 Apr 15 Batu Tiga        Malaysian GP     Max Stewart Motors   7 Max Stewart     Ford TC      1600      4

1973 Apr 22                  Singapore GP     Max Stewart Motors     Max Stewart     Ford TC      1600      4

1974 Feb 10 Surfers Paradise Tasman Series R6 K W Shirvington     25 Ken Shirvington Ford TC      1600    dns reserve

1974 Feb 17 Sandown Park     Tasman Series R7 K W Shirvington        Ken Shirvington Ford TC      1600    dns reserve

1974 Jul 21 Amaroo Park      AF2 R3                                  Ken Shirvington Ford TC      1600    dns practiced but too slow

 

... there are about 6 or so minor events I have yet to find. Also, I cannot find any race that Ken Shirvington actually started? It appears the occasions he attempted to run the Mildren it was not on the pace of the newest Birranas, Elfins, Bowin etc. He bought himself a March half-way through 74.

 

Cheers all

 

Edit: Corrected a comment I made in this post. I should have rechecked what I was reading in oldracingcars.com. My mistake.

Steve


Edited by Porsche718, 20 September 2022 - 21:01.


#8 lyntonh

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 10:04

58.jpg

Max ran the car, for the last time in Australia, if my research is correct, at the Angus and Coote Diamond Trophy meeting at Oran Park on 21st May 1972, in the configuration it ran in Japan a few weeks earlier, because the Elfin MR5 had engine problems. 

 

Mark Bisset put an article together last year about the meeting, and discussion about the car followed in the comments. 
 

https://primotipo.co...tes-lola-t300s/

 

Thanks for the list of the car's racing history......excellent stuff.


Edited by lyntonh, 27 April 2022 - 10:07.


#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 10:27

So when might it have run without the hole in the top of the nose?

 

It was still complete at the '69 Bathurst meeting, when it had a high rear wing and a front wing too, and that was (as noted) the only time it ran those.

 

The wing Max Pearson is running now would not have been legal after that time, so his representation of the car has to stem from before Bathurst, 1969.

 

We need pics from the Tasman Cup races, I guess. And the Symmons Plains meeting.



#10 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 10:35

That meeting was after the 1972 Japanese GP where it was suggested that the car was Waggott powered. But it is also said that the car was converted to Ford Twin Cam for the Singapore and Malaysian GPs, and is also the form in which Allan Grice ran the car. So I questioned that, as there was not a lot of time before or after to do two engine configuration swaps.

 

The other issue is that the primotipo.com says it was "sold" to Grice. Was it perhaps leased back to Stewart for the Asian races in 73? MarkBisset please help!!! :) 


Edited by Porsche718, 27 April 2022 - 10:43.


#11 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 10:42

 

We need pics from the Tasman Cup races, I guess. And the Symmons Plains meeting.

 

I've done that research tonight Ray, no wings at Tasman or Symmons. Only the little nose winglets that were on the car when Bartlett ran it for it first run at Warwick Farm.

 

I wasn't looking specifically for the date the "cut-out" appears, but I can tell you it was early in 1970. I would have to look again for any pics during the Tasman rounds -  BUT I JUST PUT THE BOXES BACK!

 

The cut-out was certainly there during the Gold Star rounds.



#12 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 10:51

 

The wing Max Pearson is running now would not have been legal after that time, so his representation of the car has to stem from before Bathurst, 1969.

 

 

 

The other issue is that the stickers on the front nose tabs are typical of those added to the Mildren cars (and Leo Geoghegan's) whenever they ran in Asia. MSA being Malaysian-Singapore Airlines.

 

Almost as if it is being represented as it ran in Asia on "some" occasion. 

 

In reality, acknowledging it's wonderful place in Australian open-wheeler history, its representation is a bit of a mish-mash!



#13 MarkBisset

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 10:56

3-E4-FE270-4-E1-D-4924-85-FD-B0-C2-F838-

 

What a car, what a driver!

What shot to choose tho? Running away from the factory twin-cam 16-valve R39 engined 1.6-litre Colts at Fuji in 1969, winning the ‘72 Singapore GP or ‘belting’ the F5000s in 1971. Or how ‘bout the novelty value of one of the two Alfa engined formats? A car for all seasons. 
 

Nup, I think I’ll go with this one of Maxxy doing the corner weights @ Mildrens. Note KB’s Sub-tub @ right, and a bit of a Series 1750GTV @ left.

 

As for the Gricey thing, probably my assumption on a sale, a lease deal well and truly possible, am sure someone spoke to me about that, Paul Newby ‘praps told me I’d got that wrong? 
 

(Andrew Robinson Collection)

 

https://primotipo.co...mildren-racing/


Edited by MarkBisset, 27 April 2022 - 11:00.


#14 Porsche718

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 11:16

Thanks for that Mark.

 

"What a driver" ... so true.

 

It struck me as I was putting together that race list, once he was out of the seat, look how the results changed!

 

And in regards to Ray's question about when the body cut-out appeared, I don't think I've seen a pic with the cut-out appearing before the roll-over hoop extension. Interesting.

 

And also Mark, did it have a double engine swap during that March, April, May 1972 period?


Edited by Porsche718, 27 April 2022 - 11:22.


#15 lyntonh

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 11:32

1840-C30-E-C4-F8-4189-9-C5-F-7800283-BD9

 

The cutout was there in September 1969 at the Farm, well before the rollover bar extension.

 

That squeezes the modification down to between April 7th and 9th September 1969.


Edited by lyntonh, 27 April 2022 - 11:34.


#16 MarkBisset

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 11:45

Yes Porsche718, couldn’t the big-fella maker a car dance!?
 

Can’t really help with cutout observations.

 

And yes re early ‘72 engine swaps; ‘72 Tasman Waggott, then Singapore / Shah Alam Ford 1.6 twin-cam, then Waggott for Jap GP which was a 2-litre F2 race - not 1.6 Ford as per your list.

 

Finally, KB won Macau in the Sub and Leo Fuji aboard the 39 Repco in 1969

 

Finally, finally Greg Smith restored the Mildren Waggott - Max P fitted the 2-litre and gave it another spruce-up - but Smithy did all the really hard work, I’ll copy him in on this thread as he knows all about the car/engine intimately 


Edited by MarkBisset, 27 April 2022 - 11:46.


#17 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 12:04

Sorry for interrupting your erudite conversation, but I was reminded again of something when reading the opening post, and I feel confident some of you gentlemen can put my curiosity to rest easily: I'm fairly certain they were not, but can someone tell me whether Max and Tony Stewart were related in any way?



#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 12:23

Not at all...

 

But they could be two of a kind. One Warwick Farm meeting, long after racing had finished, there in the darkness of the pits, the Stewarts were being quite noisy and rude (if that's the acceptable term) when Jill Hindmarsh butted in to say, "We've got a young lad driving for us, too, but he isn't as rude/brash/offensive as your young man."

 

You can just imagine the retort hurled her way.

 

Tony Stewart was from Melbourne, the nephew of Jack Godbehear (sp?) as I recall, while Max was from country NSW.



#19 MarkBisset

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 20:07

BA2-ED957-DDA1-4847-9-AD7-D32-C346-FC30-

 

The Stewarts.

 

Paul England and Max tend to Tony in the 1972 Sandown Tasman pitlane. Max’ Elfin MR5 Repco parked while John McCormack’s whistles past.

 

Warwick Brown and Lugsy Adams contemplating at rear...

https://primotipo.co...-all-happening/

 

(Ian Smith)


Edited by MarkBisset, 27 April 2022 - 20:09.


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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 April 2022 - 20:43

That's Paul England on the left, isn't it?

 

He provided that engine, as I recall.



#21 Steve99

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 09:20

This is new to me, yet I have to say 'Waggott' has to be the greatest name for a racing car.



#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 11:41

"Waggott" was the name for the engine...

 

But in the last picture, the engine is not one of Waggott's at all. As I mentioned, Paul England provided that engine, which was a 125E Twin Cam modified by him, for Tony Stewart's use.

 

Merv Waggott really should be the subject of a thread all his own.



#23 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 15:54

Ray I believe that the engine in the car at Sandown is a 2 litre Waggott TC4V not a twin cam as might have been supplied by Paul England.  Max only used the 1600 twin cam engines in SE Asian races which by 1972 were run to a 1600 cc 2 valve formula the same as our Aussie F2.



#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 19:25

I should have looked at the list up the page, shouldn't I?

 

But it does appear to be Paul England in the pic...



#25 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 20:32

It is Paul England leaning over the car with Max.  He was a strong supporter of Tony Stewart and built the twin cam engines he used in F2.



#26 MarkBisset

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Posted 28 April 2022 - 22:25

It is Paul England in the pic as my caption says...

 

and Max Stewart and Tony Stewart and Warwick Brown and Lugs Adam’s and John McCormack 



#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 April 2022 - 05:04

Yeah, I've botched this one good and proper, Mark...

 

I don't know what the relationship between Paul and Jack Godbehear was, someone will, Jack worked with Paul at least (foreman?) and, as mentioned, he was Tony's uncle.



#28 TerryS

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Posted 06 May 2022 - 07:16

It seems "driven by a number of drivers" in the ad is only 5.

 

In addition to the 4 noted in my opening post was to be added to by Kevin Bartlett.

 

Ken Shirvington did own the car for a while but according to the details in post #7 he never actually started a race in it.



#29 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 May 2022 - 01:18

BA2-ED957-DDA1-4847-9-AD7-D32-C346-FC30-

 

The Stewarts.

 

Paul England and Max tend to Tony in the 1972 Sandown Tasman pitlane. Max’ Elfin MR5 Repco parked while John McCormack’s whistles past.

 

Warwick Brown and Lugsy Adams contemplating at rear...

https://primotipo.co...-all-happening/

 

(Ian Smith)

A 5000 never whistles past. More like booms past!



#30 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 May 2022 - 01:24

3-E4-FE270-4-E1-D-4924-85-FD-B0-C2-F838-

 

What a car, what a driver!

What shot to choose tho? Running away from the factory twin-cam 16-valve R39 engined 1.6-litre Colts at Fuji in 1969, winning the ‘72 Singapore GP or ‘belting’ the F5000s in 1971. Or how ‘bout the novelty value of one of the two Alfa engined formats? A car for all seasons. 
 

Nup, I think I’ll go with this one of Maxxy doing the corner weights @ Mildrens. Note KB’s Sub-tub @ right, and a bit of a Series 1750GTV @ left.

 

As for the Gricey thing, probably my assumption on a sale, a lease deal well and truly possible, am sure someone spoke to me about that, Paul Newby ‘praps told me I’d got that wrong? 
 

(Andrew Robinson Collection)

 

https://primotipo.co...mildren-racing/

Corner scales have improved and got a LOT smaller.

The workshop looks a lot less pukka than modern mainstream race teams.

Though I doubt the outcome is much different.



#31 Allen Brown

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 08:29

For anyone interested ... 

 

Mildren "Rennmax BN3"

 

1968 Sep  8 Warwick Farm     Racing Car Scr   Alec Mildren Racing  1 Kevin Bartlett  Alfa Romeo   1600  1   3

1969 Feb  2 Lakeside         Tasman Series R5 Alec Mildren Racing    Max Stewart     Alfa Romeo   1600 10   6

etc

etc

1974 Jul 21 Amaroo Park      AF2 R3                                  Ken Shirvington Ford TC      1600    dns practiced but too slow

 

... there are about 6 or so minor events I have yet to find. Also, I cannot find any race that Ken Shirvington actually started? It appears the occasions he attempted to run the Mildren it was not on the pace of the newest Birranas, Elfins, Bowin etc. He bought himself a March half-way through 74.

 

Cheers all

 

Edit: Corrected a comment I made in this post. I should have rechecked what I was reading in oldracingcars.com. My mistake.

Steve

 

I've only just spotted this.  Very interesting list.  

 

To answer your comment about Shirvington, he raced it at Oran Park 4 Aug 1974 (twice) and Calder 18 Aug 1974. 

 

I spotted a few other outings missing from your list such as Bartlett winning at Macau in 1969 - or do you think that was in the 'Mono'? - Stewart racing it at Warwick Farm July 1969 and July 1970, and at Singapore and Selangor in both 1970 and 1971.  Grice also ran it at least once more, at Amaroo Park 23 Jul 1972.  



#32 Porsche718

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 10:23

Hey Allen

 

Yes my list above was a very quick compilation on the day this post first appeared.

 

I think I had 51 races the car actually started, so that's not to far short of the 60 you quoted. So I knew I had missed some.

 

Interesting about Shirvington's ownership. When I get to it I'll update the list posted.

 

Cheers all 

 

Steve W



#33 Dale Harvey

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 22:32

The car now has a new owner.

Dale.