86 replies to this topic

[AJCee]

I’d also like to commend everyone who was still running at the early termination of the Silverstone 4 Hours GT race in 1997. Getting through Brooklands, Luffield and Woodcote (where I was spectating, fortunately under cover) would have been easier in a boat by the end.

[john winfield]

Spa 1966:  Surtees and Rindt, with support from Sarti and Aron.

[rl1856]

In no particular order, from the annals of history.

 

Gonzalez   Le Mans 1954   Big powerful unwieldy Ferrari 375 in the driving rain for much of the race

Moss   Monaco 1960  Giving Lotus their maiden F1 victory, and essentially lapping the field

Moss   British GP 1961  His heroics in a Lotus 18 were previously mentioned.  However he later drove the Ferguson 4wd GP car was was many seconds faster than anyone else, and could have won the race if the car did not break down

Moss   German GP 1961   Sublime drive, and an equal combination of skill and tactics

Clark   German GP 1962    Car stalled at the start, he finally set off many minutes behind the field.  He finished in 4th place after passing everyone except  Hill (winner) Surtees and Gurney.   If Clark started with everyone else, his times implied that he would have finished several min ahead of the field.

Steward  Belgian GP 1965    Clark was in a class by himself.....and Stewart finished 2nd, in driving rain, to give notice of what would come and finishing 1:30 ahead of McLaren in 3rd place.

Ickx     French GP 1968     A prime example of his wet weather skill

Stewart  German GP 1968    Fullfilling the promise shown in Belgium 1965, and with his wrist in a cast from a crash earlier in the season

Edited by rl1856, 02 May 2022 - 13:58.

[Henri Greuter]

I was there. No, not many ventured out but Gilles teammate Jody S was one of them. I seem to remember him saying after the session that he had never been so scared in a race car,

I wasn't there but a American friend of me was. He was way more into US racing (USAC, dirt etc) than in F1. But Seeing Gilles in that practice session was one of the most impressive performances and displays of car control he had ever seen in his entire life.

 

 

Two other memorable wet race performances: The winner of that race is mentioned already:  Canada 1981.

 

Alain Prost took the lead in his Renault. Mind you, that was a first generation Turbocharged F1 car with still dramatic turbo lag. Prost is ever so often ridiculed for being a lousy rain racer. Certainly  since that rained out Monaco 1984 race. But in that race (Canada 1981) he was absolutely fantastic, as long as his car didn't break down.

 

That very same race we saw another beyond belief performance in the rain by:  Gilles Villeneuve....

He also drove such a first generation turbocharged F1 car but then the one with the worst chassis of the entire starting field that year. But he was in the top 3 for most of the race and the final part of the race he ran without a front wing! And not that much slower without it then he was with it. And then I didn't mention yeat that the front wing was also bent upwards for a number of laps, blocking his view and still he remainded on the track!

Crazy, entirely crazy. But how did he do it?????

[FastReader]

Of those I have seen in person:

 

Senna at Donington European GP 1993, particularly his first lap which was astonishing.

 

Derek Warwick in John Fitzpatrick's Porsche 956 at the 1983 Brands Hatch 1000kms. He was helped by a tweak on the car but his performance (during which he lapped the works cars) was amazing none the less.

Edited by FastReader, 28 April 2022 - 17:03.

[Collombin]

Prost is ever so often ridiculed for being a lousy rain racer. Certainly since that rained out Monaco 1984 race

You're doing something right if even your lousy performances are good enough to win.

[Henri Greuter]

You're doing something right if even your lousy performances are good enough to win.

Canada '81 proved for me that he was OK in the rain.

I have read suggestions that his rain race capabilities were affected by the fact that he had seen the career ending flight of Pironi in '82.

[opplock]

 

 

Derek Warwick in John Fitzpatrick's Porsche 956 at the 1983 Brands Hatch 1000kms. He was helped by a tweak on the car but his performance (during which he lapped the works cars) was amazing none the less.

 

Seconded. A superb performance. 

 

I witnessed another great wet weather drive at Manfeild in January 1976. Few will remember it but Brian Redman's performance in Fred Opert's F2 Chevron was described as "epic, reminiscent of Moss at Ardmore in 1962" (Vercoe). I wasn't at Ardmore but agree that it was epic.  

[Bob Riebe]

Sebring 1965

 

 

"Obviously this finish made many folks happy. First were Jim Hall and Hap Sharp. They proved that regardless of heat, flooding rains and a notoriously rough track their revolutionary cars could go the distance. Despite the fact that Chaparral won, Carroll Shelby was happy. His Shelby American GT40 came in second and first in the prototype class. Also, Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupes came in 1-2-3 in the GT class, a clean sweep.

Porsche fans were happy because there were four Porsches (three 904’s) in the top ten. Despite their smaller engines the well-engineered cars proved they had staying power. Sports writers were already predicting that Porsche was another “dark horse” with which Ford, Ferrari and now Chaparral must contend.

American race car fans were no doubt very happy. An American-built car driven by American drivers beat the best Europe had to offer and did it on American soil at America’s most difficult track and under terrible weather conditions. The last time an American car with an American driver won a major international sports car race was at the 1921 French Grand Prix when Duesenberg came in first"

[GLaird]

I seem to recall a story from Tiff Needell, of him sharing a car with Bob Wollek, who apparently if in need of a 'Comfort Break' didn't ever stop. Tiff described getting into the driving seat as akin to a warm bath!

 

Perhaps not the 'Wet Race' the Thread Originator had in mind, but heroic in its own way perhaps.

[d j fox]

OK here’s my list that I witnessed, and all well worth getting soaked for!

1961 International Trophy. Moss at his finest. I remember we all cheered at Stowe when he lapped Jack Brabham!

1969 International Trophy. Rindt charging through the field after his misfire disappeared almost catching Brabham

1970 BOAC From Clearways we all saw the” dry tyred” Barrie Smith Lola T70 destroy itself on the start finish straight. Pedro then called in for a bollocking with the Guv’nor Nick Syrett…the rest we all know!

1978 International Trophy (why did it always rain at Silverstone?). Rosberg great drive, although initially Hans Stuck was the real star until his engine drowned.

1980 Le Mans 24. Hans Joachim Stuck brilliant drive in the very wet first hours. He hauled the “standard “ BMW M1 from mid pack right up to challenge the Rondeaus and Porsche 908 turbos and 935s.

 Races seen on TV  I would add

 1972 Monaco GP Beltoise-brilliant drive

 2021 Austria Moto GP Brad Binder’s amazing win on his KTM, on slicks, in monsoon conditions

[marksixman]

I seem to recall a story from Tiff Needell, of him sharing a car with Bob Wollek, who apparently if in need of a 'Comfort Break' didn't ever stop. Tiff described getting into the driving seat as akin to a warm bath!

 

Perhaps not the 'Wet Race' the Thread Originator had in mind, but heroic in its own way perhaps.

I can confirm this !

 

I was part of the crew on Preston Henn's 935 at the Nurburgring 1,000km in 1981, with Brilliant Bob driving. He was an absolute gentleman. Sadly the race was stopped when Herbie Muller crashed, and Wollek was very close to his time limit in the car, having done one stop for fuel & oil, but was classified 3rd. He did apologise, but if he hadn't done it we wouldn't have come 3rd !!

[GLaird]

Thanks for the reply, I couldnt remember, or work out when and where, it was really annoying me.

[marksixman]

Thanks for the reply, I couldnt remember, or work out when and where, it was really annoying me.

Sorry to spoil, but this couldn't have been the Tiff Needell story, as he was not one of our drivers ! So, another place, another car, another wet seat !! Was just confirming that it was a Wollek trait !

[D28]

Mark Donohue used a savvy wet weather set up and knowledge of Mosport, to finish a commendable 3rd in his maiden F1 outing, 1971 Canadian GP. This despite stopping for fresh goggles; he actually gained a position as Beltoise went off on the same lap. But he was too far adrift of Stewart and Peterson and had to settle reluctantly, for 3rd. This was McLarens's best showing all season, but Donohue wasn't satisfied.  He was frustrated with the car's rising-rate suspension, and expressed disappointment at being unable to get it sorted. His podium finish, he maintained, was only  because of the rain.

Edited by D28, 30 April 2022 - 19:37.

[chr1s]

I think Eddie Cheever deserves a mention for his performance in the 2006 Grand Prix Masters race at  Silverstone.  

[arttidesco]

Of the ones I have seen 1st hand I guess Ickx on Lauda going into Paddock for the '74 ROC win would be the stand out moment.

 

Honourable mention to Hans Joachim Stuck for leading the 1981 Silverstone 6 Hours in a Group 4 BMW M1 !

[john winfield]

I've never heard much mention of the performance of Ickx and Regazzoni at Monza in 1972, sharing the 312P in the 1000km. From the photos I remember in Motor Sport, the conditions were diabolical, worse than at Brands two years earlier. They won by four laps, many cars ending in the barriers, or retiring with wet electrics. The field was a bit thin, and perhaps the winning pace was a bit pedestrian, but the two drivers coped with a misfiring engine, trying to salvage Ferrari pride as their team mates crashed out. Six hours of that at a murky, flooded Monza deserves some praise!

[john aston]

Nelson Piquet was disinclined to exit the car during testing  sessions . even when he really needed to. Allegedly 

[small block]

Frank Gardner (Lola T192) Castle Combe Formula 5000 May 1971

 

Steve Thompson (Surtees TS8) Mallory Park Formula 5000 June 1972

Edited by small block, 30 April 2022 - 07:48.

[marksixman]

I seem to recall a story from Tiff Needell, of him sharing a car with Bob Wollek, who apparently if in need of a 'Comfort Break' didn't ever stop. Tiff described getting into the driving seat as akin to a warm bath!

 

Perhaps not the 'Wet Race' the Thread Originator had in mind, but heroic in its own way perhaps.

Have had a bit of a look at some old Group C results, looking at Needell's record, and the only time I can find Needell and Wollek in the same TEAM was the Silverstone round of the WEC in 1990 (Empire Trophy), when they both drove for Joest in 962Cs. Wollek & Jelinski are shown in the #7 car (finishing 4th) and Needell & Palmer in the #8 (DNF). It is quite possible however that drivers moved around between cars in practice or testing.

 

Can't find any other races they were together for, and checking Wollek's record would take a lot longer !!

[GLaird]

I had a look too, I am fairly sure I read it in Autosport, but my collection has long since gone. I checked 'Tiff Gear', but no mention, and also looked round various sites, to see if results threw anything up, but it must have been at Silverstone. Pity Autoport never did an online archive, but obviously a much bigger task for a weekly than for MS. Thanks for the reply,

 

G

[PlatenGlass]

Jean Alesi at Japan in 1995 was a great drive. Despite the 10 second stop/go for the jumped start and losing time off track after contact with a Minardi, he was on Schumacher's tail by the time his engine gave out.

[70JesperOH]

Ayrton Senna was obviously a wet circuit driver -. second, in Monaco '84 with the otherwise obsolete Toleman-Hart, his first win in Portugal '85, and his first lap at Donington '93. Senna seemed to have a nature to wet tracks, as Dale Earnhardt Sr. had it with the air of Daytona and Talladega.

 

But otherwise, any driver racing in the VLN series at the Nürburgring Nordschleischfe, must be about the bravest and most competent wet weather drivers.

 

My personal favorite are tin top specialist Ernst Schröter of Denmark. In dry conditions he often raced above his and his car's capabilities, gathering his share of DNFs. But on a wet surface he danced around with a beutifull very controlled four wheel drift and in the lead. These are my recolections of the 1980s, when Schröter was still a force with his VW Golfs.

 

Jesper

[William Hunt]

For me Jacky Ickx will always be the best wet wheather driver of all time. His compatriot Thierry Boutsen also had two of the best wet weather drives in F1 with his wins in Canada '89 and Australia '89 (that's two out of his three F1 wins on a soaking wet track)

Edited by William Hunt, 04 May 2022 - 12:17.

[Porsche718]

Steve Thompson (Surtees TS8) Mallory Park Formula 5000 June 1972

 

Steve Thompson also had another solid wet drive in his win at Warwick Farm Tasman in 1973. Miles ahead of the next best.

[Ray Bell]

Like so many such cases, very much a result of tyre choice - or commitments or availability...

 

Piers Courage winning at Longford was such an instance. A 1600cc car defeating 2.5-litre Repco V8 and DFV- engine machines on a circuit with such long straights?

 

It was acknowledged at the time it was tyre choice/availability that won this race and at Warwick Farm Thompson had much the same advantage. But it's also a credit to him that his best lap was 1.4 seconds faster than the circuit's acknowledged master, Frank Matich, who filled second spot. But my opinion is that Matich simply drove to finish after he demolished Graham McRae under brakes at Paddock and put youngster John Walker behind him. Both McRae and Max Stewart did better laps than Matich, but weren't in the same class as Thompson.

[Doug Nye]

John Cannon's wet CanAm round win at Laguna Seca in 1968 was a triumph for him in what should have been an uncompetitive car but which had been transformed into a winner by the correct tyre choice - and his capable hands at the wheel.  John Surtees was memorably miffed by the outcome, the Firestone guys recalling him stamping around the paddock afterwards, arms outstretched, muttering querulously "John Cannon!  John Cannon?  'Ooo is this John Cannon?"...a saying often repeated since whenever John has come up in amused conversation...

 

DCN

[john winfield]

That reminds me, John Surtees drove his big Lola very well to win a sports car/big banger race at Croft, in torrential rain, August 1966 I think.

[Ray Bell]

And that reminds me...

 

The wet Solitude, was it 1964? How DSJ wrote up the 'fingertip control' of Surtees and Clark, with Surtees having the peakier engine to control.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Re John Cannon's epic victory in the 1968 Laguna Seca CanAm race...

 

I recall coming across a piece...contemporary or in an article later...that Cannon's somewhat well-used M1B/Chevy was minus its nose badge.  Second place finisher, Bruce McLaren, noted this after the race, dug one up and proudly fitted it to Cannon's car in victory lane.  Smiles all 'round.

 

It should not be forgotten that in this very race, George Eaton came to some prominence by placing a good third in what would normally be  a less-than competitive M1B/Ford.  He, too, was on the miracle Firestone tyres.

[D28]

Re John Cannon's epic victory in the 1968 Laguna Seca CanAm race...

 

I recall coming across a piece...contemporary or in an article later...that Cannon's somewhat well-used M1B/Chevy was minus its nose badge.  Second place finisher, Bruce McLaren, noted this after the race, dug one up and proudly fitted it to Cannon's car in victory lane.  Smiles all 'round.

 

It should not be forgotten that in this very race, George Eaton came to some prominence by placing a good third in what would normally be  a less-than competitive M1B/Ford.  He, too, was on the miracle Firestone tyres.

I remember reading about Bruce doing that, but cannot recall where. Possibly the race report in Road&Track or Eoin Young's column

Anyway thanks for sharing this bit of racing history.

[PCC]

John Cannon's wet CanAm round win at Laguna Seca in 1968 was a triumph for him in what should have been an uncompetitive car but which had been transformed into a winner by the correct tyre choice - and his capable hands at the wheel.  John Surtees was memorably miffed by the outcome, the Firestone guys recalling him stamping around the paddock afterwards, arms outstretched, muttering querulously "John Cannon!  John Cannon?  'Ooo is this John Cannon?"...a saying often repeated since whenever John has come up in amused conversation...

 

DCN

"Ooo is this John Cannon?" This is John Cannon! With... yours truly! More years ago than I care to calculate!

[D28]

"Ooo is this John Cannon?" This is John Cannon! With... yours truly! More years ago than I care to calculate!

 

 Great photo! Where was this, how did the meet come about?

[PCC]

 Great photo! Where was this, how did the meet come about?

It's in my parents' house, about 150 years ago. They were closely connected to the racing scene, and John was a friend of theirs. And, to a young boy, an extremely nice man.

[Glengavel]

And that reminds me...

 

The wet Solitude, was it 1964? How DSJ wrote up the 'fingertip control' of Surtees and Clark, with Surtees having the peakier engine to control.

 

Which in turn makes me wonder if the overnight rain at Le Mans in 1960 had lasted a bit longer, Clark/Salvadori might have pulled it off.

[jtremlett]

You've been Roebucked, it was "just" 8.5 seconds and not many drivers ventured out. Still an amazing piece of driving though as quite a few eye witnesses would attest to.

I don't have the relevant information to hand to confirm but I recall looking into this some while ago and I believe it was 11 seconds when Villeneuve set his best time but 9.5 at the end of the session.