74 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

I have thought for a long time that the scale of emissions cheating by manufacturers suggests the regulations are over and above what is reasonably achievable. I mean they clearly are achievable, but it must have been at such cost that big brands have taken risks to avoid the hit.

I think the issue is that brands have been unwilling to make the compromises needed to match those regulations and customer expectations for other things, because the kind of engineering needed to do so is generally expensive and more work than they want to put in.

[Sash1]

Those financial statements are really revealing though.  Suzuki, one of the "Big 4" Japanese motorcycle companies, sells less than 200k bikes a year.  Kawasaki 400k. (Less surprising given how much else Kawasaki do).  Honda make 10 million.  The scale is so different it gives a real sense of who can afford to care about racing and who can't.

 

Those figures are not even telling the number sportbikes from those totals they sell.

In 2021 the Dutch market leader was BMW with a total of 2389 bikes (on an 18 million population). Their most popular model was the R1250GS with 971 sales.

Suzuki sold only 908 bikes. Ducati and Aprilia even less.

The top 10 of best sold bikes was led by the R1250GS, followed by other adventure/naked/crossover bikes. Nr 10 on the list is the MT-09 at 281sales.

 

That means that in Holland all manufacturers sold less than 281 bikes in the supersport and superbike segments. Less than 280 R's, Gixxers, Paningales, ZXR's, Paningales, CBR's. 

 

After some searching I found the "exact" numbers of sold supersport/superbikes...

Yamaha R1: 15

Yamaha R1M: 4

Honda CBR650R: 36 

Honda Fireblade: 11

Ducati Paningale V2/V4: 30

Suzuki GSXR: not worth mentioning, almost everything is *strom models.

 

Those figures, just for one country does not make it representative for the whole of Europe, but when the sport segment is hardly 1% of your sales portfolio, you do have to wonder if racing sportbikes is worth it for your marketing or R&D budget. The market is buying other bikes and the growth is in Asia for simple bikes. The Superbike crowd at Assen was nothing compared to the '90s and early '20s

 

I actually do not understand why Suzuki signed up for another 5 years.

[Risil]

Those financial statements are really revealing though.  Suzuki, one of the "Big 4" Japanese motorcycle companies, sells less than 200k bikes a year.  Kawasaki 400k. (Less surprising given how much else Kawasaki do).  Honda make 10 million.  The scale is so different it gives a real sense of who can afford to care about racing and who can't.

 

Yeah, that is interesting. I'd have guessed that Suzuki made more bikes than Kawasaki.

[Risil]

Those figures, just for one country does not make it representative for the whole of Europe, but when the sport segment is hardly 1% of your sales portfolio, you do have to wonder if racing sportbikes is worth it for your marketing or R&D budget. The market is buying other bikes and the growth is in Asia for simple bikes. The Superbike crowd at Assen was nothing compared to the '90s and early '20s

 

I actually do not understand why Suzuki signed up for another 5 years.

 

Yeah, this is a major reason why Superbike racing does not enjoy the manufacturer support it did in the 1990s.

 

MotoGP hasn't been about selling particular bikes or technology for quite a few years -- Dorna want it to be entertainment that major brands can use to project an adventurous and youthful image. Hence control tyres and electronics, rules allowing uncompetitive brands extra development to catch up, etc. It's not really win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

[juicy sushi]

Motocycling may be reaching the same point that 4-wheeled racing.  You don't sell what you race, you race to sell the brand.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I have thought for a long time that the scale of emissions cheating by manufacturers suggests the regulations are over and above what is reasonably achievable. I mean they clearly are achievable, but it must have been at such cost that big brands have taken risks to avoid the hit.

 

No it proves companies will skimp and even cheat to make a buck if they can get away with it. 

[ehagar]

Motocycling may be reaching the same point that 4-wheeled racing.  You don't sell what you race, you race to sell the brand.

 

Well, you  *could* have a 'battle of the baggers' class that races adventure bikes...

[JeePee]

Those figures are not even telling the number sportbikes from those totals they sell.

In 2021 the Dutch market leader was BMW with a total of 2389 bikes (on an 18 million population). Their most popular model was the R1250GS with 971 sales.

Suzuki sold only 908 bikes. Ducati and Aprilia even less.

The top 10 of best sold bikes was led by the R1250GS, followed by other adventure/naked/crossover bikes. Nr 10 on the list is the MT-09 at 281sales.

 

That means that in Holland all manufacturers sold less than 281 bikes in the supersport and superbike segments. Less than 280 R's, Gixxers, Paningales, ZXR's, Paningales, CBR's. 

 

After some searching I found the "exact" numbers of sold supersport/superbikes...

Yamaha R1: 15

Yamaha R1M: 4

Honda CBR650R: 36 

Honda Fireblade: 11

Ducati Paningale V2/V4: 30

Suzuki GSXR: not worth mentioning, almost everything is *strom models.

 

Those figures, just for one country does not make it representative for the whole of Europe, but when the sport segment is hardly 1% of your sales portfolio, you do have to wonder if racing sportbikes is worth it for your marketing or R&D budget. The market is buying other bikes and the growth is in Asia for simple bikes. The Superbike crowd at Assen was nothing compared to the '90s and early '20s

 

I actually do not understand why Suzuki signed up for another 5 years.

It's not only about selling those bikes though, it's also brand management/awareness. I mean... Ford sells even less RS models percentage wise compared to a regular Focus, but they need these models and compete in the WRC for their image. That image sells more regular models.

[juicy sushi]

Well, you  *could* have a 'battle of the baggers' class that races adventure bikes...

[Myrvold]

and compete in the WRC for their image.

 

So much that the team was entered as M-Sport Fiesta and not Ford Fiesta for some years...

[Lennat]

So much that the team was entered as M-Sport Fiesta and not Ford Fiesta for some years...

 

True. But imagine all the titles they could have gotten with Ogier and proper factory backing...

 

They could have written proper rally history, but preferred BOP:d class wins at Le Mans, that basically no one will remember. 

[Hrco42]

Also there will be no RS of the current Focus

[Silberpfeil]

Also there will be no RS of the current Focus

 

That‘s been the case for a couple of years though, I believe? Even before the current facelift, the high point was the (already quite good) ST model. In Suzuki-related news, I found this opinion piece by Simon Patterson to be quite interesting: https://the-race.com...dated-strategy/

[Risil]

Motocycling may be reaching the same point that 4-wheeled racing.  You don't sell what you race, you race to sell the brand.

 

IIRC Mat Oxley argues that MotoGP has been at this point since the mid-2010s.

 

Come to think of it, I wonder how many people bought a piano because of Fabio Quartararo's championship win last year.

[BCNF1]

Motocycling may be reaching the same point that 4-wheeled racing.  You don't sell what you race, you race to sell the brand.

 

True with allot of series but it also depends what 4 wheel racing, as there are many series that sell what they race and advertise as such! There are so many 4 wheel racing series around the globe.

[Risil]

Same thing's true about motorcycle racing of course.

[BCNF1]

Same thing's true about motorcycle racing of course.

But generally there are allot more 4 wheel racing series then 2 in general globally. 

[juicy sushi]

There is, but the stuff people watch in large numbers generally doesn't do the whole "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" thing except in the very broadest sense.  As brand positioning and demonstrations of technological superiority, they race.  To show that their model x is better than the other brand's model y is not really in play anymore, even with touring cars.

[Hrco42]

That‘s been the case for a couple of years though, I believe? Even before the current facelift, the high point was the (already quite good) ST model.

Nope, the first, second and third generation Focus had an RS. The current (fourth) generation doesn't and won't, according to the latest rumors

[BCNF1]

There is, but the stuff people watch in large numbers generally doesn't do the whole "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" thing except in the very broadest sense.  As brand positioning and demonstrations of technological superiority, they race.  To show that their model x is better than the other brand's model y is not really in play anymore, even with touring cars.

 

Still a good few 1000 can watch even local series, which aids in marketing/promotion/potential sales, every little helps when it comes to exposure/potential audience reach.

Edited by BCNF1, 05 May 2022 - 20:25.

[ArnageWRC]

Nope, the first, second and third generation Focus had an RS. The current (fourth) generation doesn't and won't, according to the latest rumours

 

Which isn't a surprise; the car used in the WRC is a Puma. (Though saying that, they never produced a Fiesta RS when that was the WRCar).

[manmower]

Suzuki Motor Corporation's statement on their MotoGP future:
 

 

Suzuki Motor Corporation is in discussions with Dorna regarding the possibility of ending Suzuki’s participation in MotoGP™ at the end of 2022.

Unfortunately, the current economic situation and the need to concentrate its effort on the big changes that the Automotive world is facing in these years, are forcing Suzuki to drastically decrease racing related costs and to use all its economical and human resources in developing new technologies.

We would like to express our deepest gratitude to our Suzuki Ecstar Team, to all those who have supported Suzuki's motorcycle racing activities for many years and to all Suzuki fans who have given us their enthusiastic support.

 

[Risil]

Out of interest, who is the race team for Suzuki? Are they based out of the UK, or Italy, or...?

[MasterOfCoin]

Out of interest, who is the race team for Suzuki? Are they based out of the UK, or Italy, or...?

Good question, would be nice if they could become a satellite team for Aprilia......

[jradicals]

Out of interest, who is the race team for Suzuki? Are they based out of the UK, or Italy, or...?

I had never thought about it until this question prompted me to look it up - based in a fairly nondescript industrial area outside Milan.