94 replies to this topic

[BRG]

Splits are great and are welcomed by everyone!  Just ask the European Super (Football) League or the Saudi LIV Golf league

[HeadFirst]

No it's money. As always.

 

And control. F1 seems to be growing tired of the control the FIA has over them, and not getting much in return.

[mclarensmps]

Been way too long without having this topic circle back into the circus 

[ClubmanGT]

Good. Then sanction the Hyundai Excel series in Australia as the world's premier motor racing category. 

[pdac]

I just mentioned in another thread that a good reason for splitting from the FIA would be if F1 wants to move to being an electric series. Formula E has exclusivity under the FIA umbrella. Splitting from the FIA would mean F1 would not be restricted.

[Izzyeviel]

I'd like to think F1 is thinking of the next big thing (Hydrogen for example) and not thinking about being all electric.

[Clatter]

I'd like to think F1 is thinking of the next big thing (Hydrogen for example) and not thinking about being all electric.

They maybe thinking about a lot of things, but in the end they will go the way the engine manufactures go. Hopefully hydrogen will be up there, but I don't expect F1 to make it happen.

[pdac]

I'd like to think F1 is thinking of the next big thing (Hydrogen for example) and not thinking about being all electric.

 

Well, if it's Hydrogen, it can't be fuel cell.

[Ben1445]

I just mentioned in another thread that a good reason for splitting from the FIA would be if F1 wants to move to being an electric series. Formula E has exclusivity under the FIA umbrella. Splitting from the FIA would mean F1 would not be restricted.

Even if they didn't want to make F1 itself electric, it would open up the ability to have an in-house electric support series like MotoGP has with MotoE.

 

Though in fairness it would perhaps just be easier to buy Formula E in order to do that rather than split with the FIA.  

[TomNokoe]

I don't trust Benson. He's become more and more sensationalist since last year. This is a classic "I heard thing this thing that probably won't happen but imagine if it did?!" Click Click Click

[Alfisti]

It will all come down to one word. Ferrari.

[Dolph]

And control. F1 seems to be growing tired of the control the FIA has over them, and not getting much in return.

 

F1 is owned by FIA.

 

Liberty owns the TV rights.

 

If Liberty is unhappy, then they shouldn't have bought the rights.

[New Britain]

The problem the EU Commission identified was that a Vice President of the Governing Body (a certain Mr. Ecclestone) was making millions out of the commercial side. That's a clear conflict of interest anywhere, not just in Europe. The relevant commissioner was ousted as a result of a corruption scandal (rather ironically) and while the EU was in disarray, Mosley and Ecclestone came up with a witty idea that they'd have nothing to do with each other. Ecclestone would no longer be an FIA official but would buy the commercial rights from Mosley's FIA. The deal, 99 years' rights  for a piddly sum, woul'd probably have been thrown out by any court on "restraint of trade" grounds or probably on others too - it stank of corruption. However, there was no-one left in the EU Commission with any interest in the subject so they could carry on unchallenged.

 

EU trade policy would almost certainly support the FIA asserting its right to govern, while circuits (who suffer from the Ecclestone hosting-fee model) would surely love a return to FIA-only running F1. As for the sanctioning of other racing, that's done by national motor clubs, who are the members in the Federation, the F in FIA.

I think it was slightly different. The issue back then (at least officially; there may well have been a hidden agenda with insight into the sheer corruption of Mosley and his best friends) was that, by contract, the FIA was receiving a percentage of the annual gross revenue of the F1 Commercial Rights Holder. At the same time that the FIA had a direct financial stake in the success of F1, it was systematically disadvantaging other racing series under its jurisdiction in order to reduce their competitiveness versus F1, which had the consequence of generating more money for the FIA.

[ArnageWRC]

At the same time that the FIA had a direct financial stake in the success of F1, it was systematically disadvantaging other racing series under its jurisdiction in order to reduce their competitiveness versus F1, which had the consequence of generating more money for the FIA.

 

For those of us who follow other series, this is the salient point, and hasn't been forgotten. 

 

As already said, before that, while still officially part of the FiA - Bernie's title was something like 'Boss of FiA Promotional Affairs' (it's in the motorsport handbook 'Who's who in F1/Motorsport) He was in charge of promoting the FiA Championships, not just F1.

If I remember rightly, in the mid/late 90s, the WRC was filmed by BBC Worldwide on behalf of ISC, which was Bernie's company at the time - who then sold it around the world. There were constant complaints that he spent too much time with F1, and not the other series under the FiA umbrella.

[New Britain]

For those of us who follow other series, this is the salient point, and hasn't been forgotten. 

 

As already said, before that, while still officially part of the FiA - Bernie's title was something like 'Boss of FiA Promotional Affairs' (it's in the motorsport handbook 'Who's who in F1/Motorsport) He was in charge of promoting the FiA Championships, not just F1.

If I remember rightly, in the mid/late 90s, the WRC was filmed by BBC Worldwide on behalf of ISC, which was Bernie's company at the time - who then sold it around the world. There were constant complaints that he spent too much time with F1, and not the other series under the FiA umbrella.

The person who brought the official complaint to the EU Competition Commissioner and got the ball rolling was, IIRC, the German promoter of an FIA-sanctioned truck racing series. The FIA had been manipulating the dates on which he was allowed to hold races, unilaterally taking away his preferred (and previously agreed) dates because they 'conflicted' with dates for F1 races and thus threatened to reduce the attendance at the F1 races.

[pdac]

F1 is owned by FIA.

 

Liberty owns the TV rights.

 

If Liberty is unhappy, then they shouldn't have bought the rights.

 

Nice in theory. But as well all know, it's all about the money and Liberty/FOM are the ones that generate the money. Without the F1 cash, the FIA would be seriously compromised. Both the FIA and Liberty knew this when Liberty bought in. So I don't think the FIA are ever going to do anything to seriously upset Liberty.

[Nathan]

Liberty will have to start buying up tracks, I imagine the new FIA will threaten to move other FIA sanctioned races from circuits participating in a break away.

 

F1 is owned by FIA.

 

 

The F1 rules are written by the FIA, but if you abuse the F1 name, logo etc. it will be Liberty taking you to court.  They own the name.

Edited by Nathan, 13 May 2022 - 14:16.

[BRG]

Do Liberty own the name?  I will grant you the logo, but surely the name is a part of the FIA's rulebook?  Mosley flogged off the promotional rights cheap, sure, but the name?

[pdac]

Do Liberty own the name?  I will grant you the logo, but surely the name is a part of the FIA's rulebook?  Mosley flogged off the promotional rights cheap, sure, but the name?

 

Not sure, but I would imagine that Liberty may own (or have control of) the commercial rights to the name.

[New Britain]

Do Liberty own the name?  I will grant you the logo, but surely the name is a part of the FIA's rulebook?  Mosley flogged off the promotional rights cheap, sure, but the name?

'Formula One' and 'F1' are owned by the FIA. This was an issue back when the factory teams threatened their breakaway series in the late '00s - what would they call it? 'Grand Prix' however is a generic term.

[Nathan]

Do Liberty own the name?  I will grant you the logo, but surely the name is a part of the FIA's rulebook?  Mosley flogged off the promotional rights cheap, sure, but the name?

 

Bernie came to realize 'F1' and 'Formula 1' were never trademarked.  Liberty Media claims ownership of 'Formula One Licensing BV' and 'FWOC Ltd'.

"The F1 logos, F1 FORMULA 1 logos, F1 FORMULA 1 logo, F1®, FORMULA 1®, FIA FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPTM, GRAND PRIX and related marks are trade marks of Formula One Licensing BV, a Formula 1 company.  All results, timing data and certain other content are copyright Formula One World Championship Limited. All rights reserved."

Edited by Nathan, 16 May 2022 - 15:58.

[pdac]

Bernie came to realize 'F1' and 'Formula 1' were never trademarked.  Liberty Media claims ownership of 'Formula One Licensing BV' and 'FWOC Ltd'.

"The F1 logos, F1 FORMULA 1 logos, F1 FORMULA 1 logo, F1®, FORMULA 1®, FIA FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPTM, GRAND PRIX and related marks are trade marks of Formula One Licensing BV, a Formula 1 company.  All results, timing data and certain other content are copyright Formula One World Championship Limited. All rights reserved."

 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Does this mean that if, hypothetically, the FIA and Liberty were to split acrimoniously, are you saying that the FIA would own the championships, but they would only be able to market it if they completely changed the branding and, at the same time, Liberty could still use the terms "F1" and "Formula 1" when creating a new series?

[Nathan]

I just know who claims to own those trademarks, and read they were secured during Bernie's time.  What legal options exist if push came to shove, I don't know.

[Deeq]

Libery has a lease not ownership of Formula 1, the FiA own Formula 1.
Anyway this alleged conflict is between the Teams and Libery, not between FiA and Libery...

[pdac]

Libery has a lease not ownership of Formula 1, the FiA own Formula 1.
Anyway this alleged conflict is between the Teams and Libery, not between FiA and Libery...

 

The OP includes this text from the quoted article:

 

This has angered the teams and bosses of commercial rights holder F1, and it has added to a range of issues that are causing dissatisfaction with the FIA's actions in recent months.

 

 

So we are talking about Liberty here too.

[Szoelloe]

From Andrew Benson's article here - https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/61367767

 

 

 

I think it's most likely posturing and political power plays here, but is it actually feasible for F1 to leave the FIA if they continue to disagree?

Any international sport that is self-regulated is not a sport anymore, but a show. Saying that, F1 is not a sport, and is already a show. This is not as dumb an idea as Super League is in football. The FIA was always looked upon as the devil incarnate anyway.

[mkad]

New article from the Guardian: https://www.theguard...sions-in-monaco

 

Formula One’s owners are understood to be deeply dissatisfied with the sport’s governing body the FIA. After another weekend where the FIA’s performance was publicly criticised at Sunday’s Monaco Grand Prix, there are indications of an increasing schism between F1 and the FIA and in particular its new president Mohammed Ben Sulayem. Sources fear that the governing body is damaging the sport just as it is enjoying a surge in popularity.

[absinthedude]

Any breakaway series wouldn't be called Formula 1 or F1, but could perhaps have "grand prix" in the title. 

 

However, I don't see it happening. This is at least the third time a breakaway has been threatened/promised since I started watching. It's too high risk for the teams, drivers and officials involved if they actually go ahead. The chances are that it would be like CART/IRL A disaster all round in the medium term with the FIA F1 series ultimately winning out but at huge cost. 

 

Though I have to say, given that I have no joy from F1 these days and cannot see joy in the future given the direction the FIA and Liberty are taking it.....I would currently be in favour of a breakaway.

[F1 Mike]

The thing with this is... If F1 (or whatever new name they might give themselves) absolutely nailed the terms of the commercial agreement for their alternative series... All the FIA would be left with is the Formula 1 World Championship name if all teams stuck together and migrated

[absinthedude]

The thing with this is... If F1 (or whatever new name they might give themselves) absolutely nailed the terms of the commercial agreement for their alternative series... All the FIA would be left with is the Formula 1 World Championship name if all teams stuck together and migrated

 

The IRL started with few, if any, credible teams and none of the top teams or drivers.....but it had the Indy 500 and therefore the ability to describe itself as "IndyCar". And in the end, it won. 

[PayasYouRace]

The IRL started with few, if any, credible teams and none of the top teams or drivers.....but it had the Indy 500 and therefore the ability to describe itself as "IndyCar". And in the end, it won. 

The tide had turned before the IRL had the right to use the “Indycar” name. That was 2003, which had already seen the mass exodus of teams and circuits from CART, and the collapse of CART itself.

 

But the draw of Indy to sponsors had no real analogue to anything in F1 at the moment. I don’t think we can use the Indycar split of 1996 to learn anything about how a potential F1/FIA split would go.

[Risil]

Thanks for sharing that Mkad. Typical F1 politics story, quote a phrase from MBS, take something Lewis said that's tangentially related to the subject, and do the rest "on background" based on various paddock conversations you are in no way allowed to name or quote directly for fear of giving anything away.

[RA2]

Looks like Graham Stoker has not given up yet.

[Lee Nicolle]

So my understanding is that without FIA approval, you can't show up at FIA approved circuits. No circuit wants to be seen operating outside the FIA, even if indirectly via their national governing body. So it would mean F1 would have to rely solely on new circuits happy to run outside FIA governance, which wouldn't be a lot, and they'd lose all their classic venues.

 

Many will point to various national series that aren't directly run by the FIA, such as Indycar. But those series still need to meet FIA criteria, even if they're doing it via their local governing body.

 

Where I'm lacking information is that there are no "world championships" that are run by a local governing body.

As CAMS here in Oz found out the FIA and them do not own motorsport. Or the drivers and circuits. All of who have a right to earn a living. 

FIA has been a disaster for decades, F1 nearly as bad. BUT have no legal right to tell tracks who is going to use them. And ditto for drivers

It is called restraint of trade!

[taran]

In all the past shenanigans, the car manufacturers always sided with the FIA in the end. Not just because Ferrari was given incentives but because the FIA is the global motoring authority. I really don't see VAG, Ferrari, Mercedes en Renault spite the FIA for a racing series where Liberty gets most of the money.

 

Some of the current teams might think the grass is greener elsewhere but teams can easily be replaced. Bring in some (F2) teams, resurrect old names like Brabham and Ligier, add Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Maserati, Renault and Mercedes and F1 will continue to reign supreme.

 

But perhaps it's not Liberty fueling this alleged discontent.....Maybe the FIA would like to see Liberty take their bat and walk away so they can sell the commercial agreement to another party on better terms?

Edited by taran, 31 May 2022 - 08:17.

[Beri]

The moaning of Liberty is even more cringeworthy than accidentally congratulating instead of condoling someone at a funeral.

[monolulu]

Interesting developments 

https://twitter.com/...cWUOvwX-NCSUlew

[Risil]

Wow. Worth its own thread? Feels like not very long since Bayer was appointed.

[OvDrone]

To be honest, this apparent catfight between FOM/teams and the FIA/Bennyboy has become my favorite part of the 2022 season.

[FLB]

Absolutely predictable, IMHO. New régime clearing the old régime away.

Edited by FLB, 01 June 2022 - 13:51.

[FLB]

To be honest, this apparent catfight between FOM/teams and the FIA/Bennyboy has become my favorite part of the 2022 season.

Not to me.

 

 

This is FISA/FOCA part 2, 30 years later.

[SophieB]

Wow. Worth its own thread? Feels like not very long since Bayer was appointed.

We’re discussing it in the Race Control thread too, but feel free if you think it’s significant enough in its own right?

[Gareth]

'Formula One' and 'F1' are owned by the FIA. This was an issue back when the factory teams threatened their breakaway series in the late '00s - what would they call it? 'Grand Prix' however is a generic term.

I don’t think that’s quite right? The threatened breakaway series then would have needed to be called something different to F1 because it was the teams breaking away from Bernie and the FIA.

Liberty hold all the F1 trademarks. In contrast, the FIA hold all the F2 trademarks.

I’m not certain but I do think that Liberty could continue to use the name if asked another body to the FIA to regulate the series.

[Fastcake]

I feel this is just the replacement of a Todt person with a MBS person. Despite Bayer’s new F1 role he had been working for the FIA for many years.

[New Britain]

'Formula One' and 'F1' are owned by the FIA. This was an issue back when the factory teams threatened their breakaway series in the late '00s - what would they call it? 'Grand Prix' however is a generic term.

 

I don’t think that’s quite right? The threatened breakaway series then would have needed to be called something different to F1 because it was the teams breaking away from Bernie and the FIA.

Liberty hold all the F1 trademarks. In contrast, the FIA hold all the F2 trademarks.

I’m not certain but I do think that Liberty could continue to use the name if asked another body to the FIA to regulate the series.

I don't think we disagree; there is just a semantic difference.

The FIA own the trademarks of 'Formula One' and 'F1'. Liberty currently have control of those trademarks as part of the 100-year commercial rights that Bernie stole purchased at an attractive price from the membership of the FIA thanks to the connivance of Herr Max Rufus Mosley.

You will recall that, during the GPMA to-ing and fro-ing, it was mostly Mosley, not Ecclestone, who dismissed the factory teams and at every opportunity pointed out that they would not be able to hold races at any of the tracks that had existing contracts with Bernie or use the terms 'Formula One' and 'F1'.