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#1 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:17

Having watched a bit of Formula E today, I heard that they are reversing the circuit overnight to run 'backwards' tomorrow. I think that this is a great idea and a fantastic way to get a couple of races in at the same location, but not with the feeling of having run the same race twice. I feel that this is particularly interesting as an F1 fan especially in light of the direction that F1 is going in terms of having sprint races as well as a Grand Prix.

 

Now, we all know why we can't run current GP circuits backwards (mostly safety issues) - but is this something that circuit designers should look at when building new circuits? Effectively two circuits for the price of one, however there is no doubt that there would have to be compromises in terms of the design to facilitate this.

 

Are there any circuits that can currently do this? Tempelhof is literally a big area of airport apron so that doesn't really count to me. I'm fairly certain (with no research) that there are no grade 1 circuits that can do this otherwise we'd probably have seen it in F1 already. 

 

What are peoples thoughts? Is this the future?



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#2 noikeee

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:20

On modern safety standards, any corner taken at any reasonable speed, would take a football field of space if you have to leave runoff on both directions. :D it would also ruin the sense of speed shown in the cameras, to have such a wide area around each corner.

#3 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:21

On modern safety standards, any corner taken at any reasonable speed, would take a football field of space if you have to leave runoff on both directions. :D it would also ruin the sense of speed shown in the cameras, to have such a wide area around each corner.

 

Indeed, that's why it's interesting to me. There must be a way that a circuit could potentially be designed to run both ways (without acres of space). I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch, but it must be possible.  :)



#4 stewie

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:31

Indeed, that's why it's interesting to me. There must be a way that a circuit could potentially be designed to run both ways (without acres of space). I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch, but it must be possible. :)


The Indy GP circuit could be ran in either direction.

#5 cbo

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:44

(...)

Now, we all know why we can't run current GP circuits backwards (mostly safety issues) - but is this something that circuit designers should look at when building new circuits? Effectively two circuits for the price of one, however there is no doubt that there would have to be compromises in terms of the design to facilitate this.

(...)

What are peoples thoughts? Is this the future?


Some tracks can be changed between different layouts already, so perhaps that would do the trick.

The carbon footprint of sending the F1 circus around the world is massive, so perhaps two races on the same, but modified, track is one way of keeping transport emissions, time and cost down while maintaining a high number of races around the World.

#6 Clatter

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:48

I'm sure it is possible, but the run offs required would make it impractible. For many existing circuits I doubt there is the room anyway, so if it were to happen it would more likely be a new circuit. You would probably find then that one direction would be pefered and the other be to costly to maintain for the odd race.

#7 cpbell

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:52

Not just runoffs, but staggered barrier openings.



#8 Izzyeviel

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 14:53

Monaco in reverse would be awesome. Imagine the first corner carnage... :lol:



#9 richardnunney

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 15:01

Am I right in thinking Knockhill can run in reverse?

#10 cjm321190

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 15:03

I guess street circuits could be a bit easier.

#11 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 15:06

Am I right in thinking Knockhill can run in reverse?

 

Was just coming here to say that. Yes, Knockhill can be run in reverse.

 



#12 noikeee

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 15:11

Another problem is overtaking, circuits are designed with one direction in mind or have evolved towards one direction, to facilitate overtaking.

Run them backwards and the medium speed corner that led into a big straight into a tight corner, now no longer has a big braking zone at the end of the straight.

#13 ARTGP

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 15:44

The Indy GP circuit could be ran in either direction.

 

It's a horrible circuit regardless of direction  :lol: .

 

Ovals can be run in reverse though. 



#14 chdphd

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 15:54

I vaguely remembered this being discussed a while ago and found this thread:

 

 

There was also this from a couple of years ago:

 

 

I've been playing Grid Autosport recently it has a few circuits you can drive in reverse. Spa is just crazy.



#15 CoolBreeze

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 16:05

i think it's a horrible idea. I would prefer two race on a weekend with a reverse grid.



#16 balage06

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 16:19

Just no. Thanks.



#17 Bloggsworth

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 16:27

Am I right in thinking Knockhill can run in reverse?

It does sometimes, but on "open" days I believe, my son-in-law has certainly been round anti-clockwise.



#18 Rob G

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 18:26

Both Brands Hatch and Aintree began life being driven in the opposite direction, but once they were reversed, they never changed back.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 18:31

It does sometimes, but on "open" days I believe, my son-in-law has certainly been round anti-clockwise.

 

Or for races like the TCR UK meet I posted above. It's actually certified for both cars and bikes in both directions.

 

https://www.scotsman...ockhill-2476683



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#20 Rodaknee

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 19:16

Indeed, that's why it's interesting to me. There must be a way that a circuit could potentially be designed to run both ways (without acres of space). I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch, but it must be possible.  :)

Why would a circuit spend a lot on a whim?  As has been said many, many times - circuits are not only used for F1 cars and many events barely pay for themselves.



#21 smitten

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 19:43

Am I right in thinking Knockhill can run in reverse?


I did an experience day there 20-odd years ago which went in reverse.

#22 stewie

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Posted 14 May 2022 - 21:55

It's a horrible circuit regardless of direction :lol: .

Ovals can be run in reverse though.


It's a much better track since they de-F1ed it!

#23 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 08:24

Just no. Thanks.

 

 

Why would a circuit spend a lot on a whim?  As has been said many, many times - circuits are not only used for F1 cars and many events barely pay for themselves.

 

I don’t necessarily mean just for F1…my post was about new circuit design and whether having a ‘reverse’ option would be beneficial.


 


Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 15 May 2022 - 08:25.


#24 Sterzo

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 09:01

The Grand Prix de Bordeaux was run on a street-cum-park circuit next to the docks. In 1951 and 1952 it was run clockwise. In1953 they decided one of the bends would be better if they reversed.the direction of the circuit, and it was anti-clockwise until the last race in 1955. The Grand Prix was a non-championship event, but attended by top drivers such as Fangio and Moss, plus top riders in the bike and sidecar races.


Edited by Sterzo, 15 May 2022 - 09:03.


#25 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 09:05

The Buenos Aires circuit was bi-directional in the early years. In the 1950s the Argentine Grand Prix was run on the reverse circuit at least once.



#26 NewMrMe

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 11:04

Misano originally ran anti-clockwise. There was a major upgrade to the circuit in preparation for the return of MotoGP in 2007 during which the circuit direction was switched. I don't believe it ever supported being able to run both directions at the same time though.

 

At Mallory Park, isn't the flat oval circuit configuration ran anti-clockwise when used whilst all other circuit variations are run clockwise?

 

The former rallycross circuit at Brands Hatch incorporated parts of the main circuit in forward and reverse directions. If I remember correctly, the start/finish straight was in the normal direction. There was a sharp right onto an off-road section on the inside of Paddock. This rejoined the main circuit before Druids. After Druids they turned left onto another off-road section. It rejoined the main circuit just after Surtees, but turned right and took Surtees in the wrong direction as a right hand corner. The track then turned left for another off-road section that took them back onto the start/finish straight.



#27 danmills

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 11:14

My childhood experience of running Grand Prix 2, spinning 180 at the start in order to run reverse at Spa and taking off F4 no damage just before launching vertically at Eau Rogue was magnificent.

I remember if just the monocoque was left it was a successful flight.

#28 JimmyClark

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 13:47

My childhood experience of running Grand Prix 2, spinning 180 at the start in order to run reverse at Spa and taking off F4 no damage just before launching vertically at Eau Rogue was magnificent.

I remember if just the monocoque was left it was a successful flight.

 

Haha I used to do the same! The damage model in that game was hilarious. 

 

Spa in reverse would be terrifying. They should try it.  :lol:



#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 13:52

I used to do loads of reverse track hot laps in GP2. Great fun.



#30 Collombin

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 14:31

Going the wrong way down the Hangar Straight in Revs was fun, although the graphics did not extend to having fronts on the cars, so it looked like everyone else was reversing down the track at full speed. Which makes them partially culpable imo.

#31 Scotracer

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 22:08

Misano is a track they've changed direction recently - 2007. The corners are a bit weird in reverse - on the back straight instead of it opening up, then straight and heavy braking in to a hairpin, it's now a hairpin, then straight then an ever tightening set of apices. It just feels "wrong".

Knockhill was done as a cheap way for variety since it's the only permanent track in Scotland.

Seeing as every kid did this back in the day on racing games, which worked best?

Croft backwards is even more crazy than it is forwards. Monaco doesn't work so well.

#32 r4mses

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 23:39

I'd take a second race (call if sprint if you want to) at a slightly altered Catalunya, Nürburgring, Hockenheim or Hungaroring any day over Paul Ricard, Jeddah, Miami, Yas Marina or any of those new'ish wannabe street cuircits. 


Edited by r4mses, 15 May 2022 - 23:41.


#33 SB

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 00:05

I used to do loads of reverse track hot laps in GP2. Great fun.

 

Same did I. Great way to spend an afternoon after school  :p

 

Finding an apex thourgh Eau Rouge in Spa or going "downhill" through Sainte Devote was both exciting and terrifying !



#34 GregThomas

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 07:51

Manfield in NZ has been run in both directions but now seems firmly set as clockwise.

The NZ National Motorcycle series used to start with a reverse direction (anticlockwise) round at Manfield - usually won by the South Islanders - and finish several months later with a round there run clockwise where the N.I. locals won.

Once upon a time organisers here in NZ could run circuits in reverse at their discretion. Approval was not unidirectional. It is now though so those days are gone.



#35 Beri

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 22:08

My childhood experience of running Grand Prix 2, spinning 180 at the start in order to run reverse at Spa and taking off F4 no damage just before launching vertically at Eau Rogue was magnificent.

I remember if just the monocoque was left it was a successful flight.


Pressing left and right and seeing that helmet move, like it was going through the fiercest corners, while there was nothing left but the tub. Was fun every time.

#36 GregThomas

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Posted 16 May 2022 - 23:08

I think it was the Murphy accident which led to unidirectional approvals - indirectly.

 

The motorcycle clubs though still use a part of the track in reverse direction when they run a Motard class.

When I heard about the layout they were using I queried it as we'd been explicitly forbidden from using a part of Ruapuna in reverse for much the same thing.

Seems to be an exemption granted, but how I don't know.

 

Trees.....I remember Stephane Mehrtens putting his Honda RC30 high into a tree on the outside of Higgins at a World Superbike round.....



#37 kumo7

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 05:33

Not unless the constructors construct another car to race on the reversed track.

The idea is exciting.



#38 BerniesDad

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 15:16

I bet Paul Ricard could be run backwards, but how would anyone be able to tell?



#39 BRK

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Posted 17 May 2022 - 17:16

I think it would be a good for sim racing leagues and the like, as well as feeder series that use club layouts. Not so much for F1. Partially also because running in reverse on tracks like Imola or Interlagos wouldn't be very safe in modern cars. 



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#40 Deeq

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 10:26

Indeed, that's why it's interesting to me. There must be a way that a circuit could potentially be designed to run both ways (without acres of space). I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch, but it must be possible. :)


"Street" circuits?

#41 absinthedude

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 11:18

Possibly a consideration where new circuits are built. Nigh on impossible for existing circuits except ovals.

 

Was it the return of Kyalami in 1992 where Andrea de Cesaris walked the circuit on the Thursday and complained that the run-offs and barriers were all wrong....only for someone to point out that they'd changed the direction of the circuit compared to the 1985 version?



#42 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 11:22

Sounds like a myth. The common part of Kylami between 85 and 92 was (and still is) run in the same direction.

Or he made the comment about Interlagos, in which a common part between 80 and 90 did change direction.

#43 babbel

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Posted 18 May 2022 - 11:29

Verstappen atleast took Eau Rouge / Raidillon in reverse at one time:

 


Edited by babbel, 18 May 2022 - 11:31.


#44 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 06:56

Completely unreasonable ask.
It can be done - but to reach safety levels the circuits would make Paul Ricard seem very unforgiving.
Overtake zones don’t work in reverse most of the time.
Corners would look terrible to be able to safely accomodate racing lines in both ways

And so on

#45 Bleu

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Posted 19 May 2022 - 06:57

I remember seeing that comment from de Cesaris regarding Kyalami. Yes, the common part between old and new Kyalami is run in the same direction. As the rest of the circuit was on the different side it means though that old circuit was clockwise and new circuit is anti-clockwise.