40 replies to this topic

[RA2]

With so much supposed increase in new teams in F1 would a F2 level series where teams build their own car make sence?

F1 has become too large for new players while there is considerable interest among fans to see different cars and feeder series champions to continue racing even if F1 door is shut.

FIA could sanction another series and these would be my personal wish list;

1. Teams build complete car
2. 600 to 700 hp NA V8 from multiple manufacturers
3. 600 kg weight if safety parameters are met + driver weight
4. 18 inch wheels
5. 3 m wheelbase
6. 1.8 m wide
7. Side pod till front wheel line
8. Ground effect floor
9. Inwash front wings
10 high nose allowed
11. Maybe a spec active suspension


1. 20 race calender
2. Teams with budget cap of 30 million
3. Price money of 20 million to teams target
4. 300 million total surplus to distribute, promoter takes 100 million
5. 150 million track hosting fee from 20 tracks, 250 million from TV
6. global series at traditional countries, not run as a support series


Looking at it as a more successful A1 type series.

Edited by RA2, 17 May 2022 - 15:01.

[PayasYouRace]

Those specs look more like a lower budget F1.

Of course, a more accessible constructors series would be cool. Anything that allows smaller constructors to build racing cars would be a good thing. At the moment everything outside F1 is dominated by the same spec constructors, mainly Dallara.

[LolaB0860]

The biggest problem I've ever had with GP2/F2 is that it's sole purpose is to act as driver ladder to F1 and that is all there is to it. The teams championship is also completely meaningless. Well, not to the level of W Series, but almost. Whereas in the old F2 (no not the 2009 FIA version) it didn't seem to be the case? I don't know. It should have at least some kind of constructor input, especially for new teams. Why is there no stepping ladder for constructors in open wheelers but there is in drivers?

Edited by LolaB0860, 17 May 2022 - 15:18.

[PlatenGlass]

It would make success for drivers less meritocratic so would probably mean the quality of drivers making F1 worse overall. I think F1 has had this problem in the past (and it's not exactly perfect now). So it would be a trade off.

[RA2]

Not a replacement for F2, it is step above F2 for drivers who don't get to F1 or finished with F1 but want to continue open wheel non electric series.

[Ben1445]

How do you make this extra F2 series a commercial success?

Broadly I agree that there should be more accessibility for constructors and I’m not really happy that F3 and F2 are so heavily integrated but the F1 support race ecosystem.

Unless you ran a sort of relegation system where constructors at the bottom of F1 are at risk of a successful one at the top of F2 taking their spot… but that sound like a huge and unrealistic recalibration.

[PayasYouRace]

Not a replacement for F2, it is step above F2 for drivers who don't get to F1 or finished with F1 but want to continue open wheel non electric series.

 

I think it would make more sense to just try to apply your ideas to F1.

[ARTGP]

No to everything. 

[PayasYouRace]

No to everything. 

Finally, someone willing to come out against smaller, lighter cars.

[RA2]

I think it would make more sense to just try to apply your ideas to F1.

Team budget less than Max and Lewis salery?

[PayasYouRace]

Team budget less than Max and Lewis salery?

Why not? It’s not like they need that much money.

[Myrvold]

Not a replacement for F2, it is step above F2 for drivers who don't get to F1 or finished with F1 but want to continue open wheel non electric series.

 

So. IndyCar.

[RA2]

So. IndyCar.

Not a spec series.

[Shell]

i would cut the rule that says the F2 champion must leave the F2, especially on these times where F1 is kind of closed

But never mind, F2 is up there..i would make some changes in the F3 since its the last to come up with new regulations about aero, tyres etc

F1 had the privilege to have F2 as support and see how the cars and drivers works with 18" tyres 

F3 is way back, they need some updates there too

[pacificquay]

Where do you suppose a brand new series would be able to get 150 million in hosting fees and 250 million TV money?

[BRG]

Historically, series like F3000, F2 and F3 never really supported teams building their own cars.  There were a few, like the Boxer or the Elf but mostly it was chassis purchased from one of the volume manufacturers (March, Lola, Tecno, Martini etc) who could apply economies of scale to keep prices lower.  
 
Even series like USAC/CART/Indycars, the Japanese senior series, and even Formula Ford all have long drifted away from the individual teams building their own cars.  Other series like A1, WSRenault etc used spec chassis from the outset.  Expecting to get a dozen or more teams building their own chassis these days is a total pipedream.  The money is simply not there.
 
However, the idea of a F1 and a half, or F2 Supercup or whatever to fill the gap is not without merit.  The trouble is that every time it has been tried, it hasn't worked.  For instance, World Series only survived as long as it did because Renault underwrote the costs.

[PayasYouRace]

It appears the only way to make a constructor series to work is at the extremes. Either F1 levels of manufacturer investment, or pure club racing as shown in the 750 Formula.

[taran]

How do you make this extra F2 series a commercial success?

Broadly I agree that there should be more accessibility for constructors and I’m not really happy that F3 and F2 are so heavily integrated but the F1 support race ecosystem.

Unless you ran a sort of relegation system where constructors at the bottom of F1 are at risk of a successful one at the top of F2 taking their spot… but that sound like a huge and unrealistic recalibration.

The video game Motorsport Manager had this (as an option). Every season, the last ranked F1 team would drop down to F2 while the best F2 team entered the F1 championship.

 

And more often than not, they reversed position the next season because the ex-F1 team had better staff, drivers and facilities than the other F2 teams and the promoted F2 team lacked the facilities and budget/staff to make an impact and finished dead last....

 

 

I wonder how that works in soccer? Maybe the size/state of the facilities don't matter that much in soccer?

[absinthedude]

With the old style F2, F3000, F5000 and indyCar until fairly recently....it was not compulsory for a team to manufacture it's own car....but it was possible to do so or to buy a customer car. The best years of IndyCar saw March, Lola, Penske and occasionally other cars in the field competing against each other. I recall F3000 having Reynard, March, Lola and others. That gave teams a bit more freedom and I do think that F3000/F2 teams in those days learned more skills relevant to F1 than they do today. They had more freedom to alter the cars, order or make bespoke aero parts for the chassis they'd bought. Or make their own if they fancied. 

 

however the OP seems to be something akin to 1992 IndyCar but worldwide and with a budget cap. I am not quite sure where that would fit in today. Certainly seems an alternative to F2 and the "racing ladder" rather than an alternative stepping stone. 

 

The simplification of the ladder for drivers is probably a good thing. But it's made it much more difficult for teams to get out of the F3/F2 world and into F1. Of course elsewhere it is being discussed that this may be precisely what the existing F1 teams want. 

[PayasYouRace]

It works in football because success is driven more by human factors and good management than by equipment. It doesn’t matter what league your team plays in, the ball, the goals, the pitch are not only similar, but are outside the team’s control.

The levels of technological investment required to build a racing car are completely different, and change drastically at different levels of the sport. When a football team is promoted to a higher league, they don’t need to bring anything new to a match. If an F2 team wishes to enter F1, they need to engineer a new car from scratch.

[William Hunt]

Those specs look more like a lower budget F1.

Of course, a more accessible constructors series would be cool. Anything that allows smaller constructors to build racing cars would be a good thing. At the moment everything outside F1 is dominated by the same spec constructors, mainly Dallara.

 

Don't forget Tatuus: they're really big as well.. Or  the smaller French constructor Mygale who supply French F4.

[Frood]

Don't forget Tatuus: they're really big as well.. Or the smaller French constructor Mygale who supply French F4.

And US F4 runs a Ligier-branded Onroak car.

[absinthedude]

Part of the problem with single seaters is that we now have few organisations outside F1 who have the know-how and factories to make a single-seater racing car. This has come about because of F2 and the upper parts of the driver ladder becoming spec series. 

 

Maybe we need a ladder for teams and constructors too? But just where this would all fit in, is unclear. 

[RedRabbit]

I like the idea of a better series for the drivers who don't quite cut it in F1.

It works well for MotoGP and WSBK, in that riders on the smaller bikes can stay in that class for a number of years and actually carve a career out of that.

It would be great for F2 to become a genuine premier class category that's much more than a training ground for potential F1 drivers.

Allowing teams to build their own cars, or even create parts for a chassis they bought would also be a great environment for training potential F1 engineers.

[absinthedude]

I like the idea of a better series for the drivers who don't quite cut it in F1.

It works well for MotoGP and WSBK, in that riders on the smaller bikes can stay in that class for a number of years and actually carve a career out of that.

It would be great for F2 to become a genuine premier class category that's much more than a training ground for potential F1 drivers.

Allowing teams to build their own cars, or even create parts for a chassis they bought would also be a great environment for training potential F1 engineers.

 

F2 and F3000 used to permit drivers to stay around. You'd even get guys who didn't quite cut it in F1 go back down to F2 or F3000, have more success there and make their way back up into F1. F5000 was pretty much devised as an "alternative" top single seater formula. 

[PayasYouRace]

Allowing teams to build their own cars, or even create parts for a chassis they bought would also be a great environment for training potential F1 engineers.

I don’t think there’s ever been an issue getting young engineers into F1. All the teams hire graduates and it’s a very competitive environment.

[Sterzo]

I applaud RA2's radical approach, challenging the structure of motor racing at the top.

 

I'd actually go further, and throw all the balls in the air. Let's declare nothing sacred, and review what we want motor racing to be. It was founded on the twin aims of speed and technical development; they were the essence of racing. Now is the time to change direction and declare motor racing a sport, analagous to football, where the appeal is in skills and competition.

 

Why now? 1. Climate change, with  ICE on the way out. 2. Technology has way outstripped budgets, circuits, safety, and enjoyable racing.

 

So let's head for a cheaper, more sustainable F1 with (say ) Indycar lap times, and have multiple series to the same formula - including a World Championship series.

[RA2]

Where do you suppose a brand new series would be able to get 150 million in hosting fees and 250 million TV money?

A brand new series with a few manufacturers involved will generate the required attention.

Circuits will be able to fund 7 million hosting fee in markets where F1 operates. Fans of open wheel racing will love to see fast cars without having to pay an arm and a leg. As a bonus we get NA wailing around the track.

TV contracts with free to air chanels will be welcome comeback for sponsors. Again we are talking a global series and 12 regional contracts of 20 million is not too much of an ask.

The main stumbling block is the FIA who would not want to affect the apple cart of F1, which over the years have carefully worked to stifle any competition be it from other open wheel it sports car series.

F1 is great, they are the pinnacle, but why should they earn more than a billion in price money? How much more do they want?

[maximilian]

No.  The more parity there is in lower formulae, the better.   At least let that be about the drivers as much as possible.  Constructors already make F1 boring.

[RedRabbit]

No. The more parity there is in lower formulae, the better. At least let that be about the drivers as much as possible. Constructors already make F1 boring.

Formula 2 shouldn't be a "lower" formula though - these are already incredibly fast cars. F2 is just one step down from the premier class, and it would be great if a career in F2 was an accomplishment and not a step on the ladder.

Too many good drivers end up in FE, which is basically F3 level.

[HeadFirst]

Formula 2 shouldn't be a "lower" formula though - these are already incredibly fast cars. F2 is just one step down from the premier class, and it would be great if a career in F2 was an accomplishment and not a step on the ladder.

Too many good drivers end up in FE, which is basically F3 level.

 

You wouldn't need another series, even if there was the financial backing. A few tweeks to the F2 rules and regs would do it. 

[Ben1445]

Formula 2 shouldn't be a "lower" formula though - these are already incredibly fast cars. F2 is just one step down from the premier class, and it would be great if a career in F2 was an accomplishment and not a step on the ladder.

Too many good drivers end up in FE, which is basically F3 level.

Off the top of my head there's IndyCar, SuperFormula and (the slightly less well established) Australian S5000 which could all lay some claim to being career destination single seater options which are F2-like but don't exist with the singular purpose of feeding drivers towards F1. They exist for themselves, for their regions and their history. 

 

On that note I would be all for giving more respect and recognition towards other championships and champions in their own right. 

 

But then isn't the thrust of the original aim set out in this thread is effectively to provide more space for constructor teams outside of F1, or even just allowing competition between chassis manufacturers supplying these non-F1 championships? 

[LolaB0860]

No. The more parity there is in lower formulae, the better. At least let that be about the drivers as much as possible. Constructors already make F1 boring.

Constructors already make F1 boring? It's the only constructor series left on the planet, so do you want to have all of them to be either spec or bop controlled then?

Edited by LolaB0860, 18 May 2022 - 16:45.

[RA2]

But then isn't the thrust of the original aim set out in this thread is effectively to provide more space for constructor teams outside of F1, or even just allowing competition between chassis manufacturers supplying these non-F1 championships?

Motor racing is always about the cars. Too bad sports car where different cars make things interesting is 6 hrs long.

[LolaB0860]

Motor racing is always about the cars. Too bad sports car where different cars make things interesting is 6 hrs long.

It is. Ideally, you have amazing constructors championship where development and technology matters. Thankfully in F1 it mostly still does. However, I will still take generic Dallara spec open wheel series over performance balanced sportscar "prototypes" any day, any time.

Edited by LolaB0860, 18 May 2022 - 17:28.

[RA2]

https://www.planetf1...uper-formula-2/

Such proposal being used only as a political tool

Edited by RA2, 24 June 2022 - 05:58.

[William Hunt]

Those specs look more like a lower budget F1.

 

What's wrong with that? What does the high budget actually add to the quality of the racing? The higher the budgets the higher the chance that one or two teams will win every race: I don't find that particular entertaining.

Btw: Benetton won the F1 world title in '95 with Michael Schumacher and an estimated budget of 43 million $ (that would be about 70 million $ today inflation corrected) and at the time people were saying that budgets were running out of control..... 
https://www.grandpri...ns/ns00047.html

[RA2]

What's wrong with that? What does the high budget actually add to the quality of the racing? The higher the budgets the higher the chance that one or two teams will win every race: I don't find that particular entertaining.

Btw: Benetton won the F1 world title in '95 with Michael Schumacher and an estimated budget of 43 million $ (that would be about 70 million $ today inflation corrected) and at the time people were saying that budgets were running out of control..... 
https://www.grandpri...ns/ns00047.html

 

 

In 2010 3 teams (4started building cars) joined F1 under the assumption that a budget cap of $40 million would be put in place

 

Minardi in all its life did not have a budget of more than 40 million

Edited by RA2, 27 June 2022 - 05:41.

[PayasYouRace]

What's wrong with that? What does the high budget actually add to the quality of the racing? The higher the budgets the higher the chance that one or two teams will win every race: I don't find that particular entertaining.

Btw: Benetton won the F1 world title in '95 with Michael Schumacher and an estimated budget of 43 million $ (that would be about 70 million $ today inflation corrected) and at the time people were saying that budgets were running out of control..... 
https://www.grandpri...ns/ns00047.html

Nothing, as I said in the rest of the very post that you didn’t include when you quoted me. Oh, and you liked that post too, so why are you now trying to start an argument over only part of one of my posts?

 

The question was aimed at RA2’s concept.

[RA2]

Those specs look more like a lower budget F1.

Of course, a more accessible constructors series would be cool. Anything that allows smaller constructors to build racing cars would be a good thing. At the moment everything outside F1 is dominated by the same spec constructors, mainly Dallara.

 

 

Actually the specs are more like the first GP2 car with the exception of which is close to  champcars

[RedRabbit]

You wouldn't need another series, even if there was the financial backing. A few tweeks to the F2 rules and regs would do it.

Absolutely. F2 should be a World Championship in its own right, with the champion being allowed to defend their title at least until they lose.

And it should be a constructors series, but one allowing customer cars.