Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 6 votes

Red Bull team orders at Spanish Grand Prix


  • Please log in to reply
342 replies to this topic

Poll: Poll (255 member(s) have cast votes)

Did Red Bull do the right thing switching their two drivers?

  1. Yes, Max needs as many wins as he can get (51 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  2. Yes, Max was faster so he should've won (64 votes [25.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.10%

  3. No, it's too early in the season to start ordering drivers aside (84 votes [32.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.94%

  4. No, team orders that affect the result are always wrong (13 votes [5.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.10%

  5. Don't mind either way, the teams can do what they like with their drivers (43 votes [16.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.86%

Have you changed your opinion on this kind of thing since the 2002 Austrian GP?

  1. I hated it then (159 votes [62.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 62.35%

  2. It was OK for Ferrari to swap their drivers (72 votes [28.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.24%

  3. Sorry I don't remember Austria 2002 you are OLD (24 votes [9.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.41%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 49,125 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:26

Max Verstappen spun off early on in the Spanish GP, had some DRS problems, but owing to good strategy and a collapse from Ferrari was able to fight his way up to second, right behind his teammate Sergio Perez. The Red Bull pitwall ordered Perez to transform himself into a doormat and the Mexican obliged with a hint of disappointment over the radio. Max leads, Sergio second.

 

The folks on Radio 5 were talking about Austria 2002, but other team orders events are available.

 

What do YOU think?



Advertisement

#2 Cliff

Cliff
  • Member

  • 1,759 posts
  • Joined: June 16

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:29

I’m not sure yet if it was fair, but if not for the DRS failure, It would’ve been a non issue as Max would’ve overtaken Checo anyway.

#3 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 15,319 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:31

It was nothing like Socchi 2018…



#4 AvranaKern

AvranaKern
  • Member

  • 5,950 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:32

Any team principal who does not do what Horner did would be fired. This is the name of the game.

#5 steferrari

steferrari
  • Member

  • 1,372 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:32

These things are ugly to see but I would have done the same and I’m a Ferrari fan.

Maybe they could have waited a bit and see if he would have caught him by himself and then give the order in case he had too many troubles doing so.

But totally acceptable for me.

#6 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,235 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:33

The right decision. Ferrari may need to be as ruthless at some point too.



#7 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 36,556 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:34

They had bo choice. In the end checo just not consistent enough race to race to back him like that so early in the yr.

#8 Misk

Misk
  • Member

  • 721 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:36

The right decision. Ferrari may need to be as ruthless at some point too.

Let's see if they are able to step up when the call is there to make. They bottled it a few times recently (Germany 2018 being a prime example).


Edited by Misk, 22 May 2022 - 14:36.


#9 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:38

Any team principal who does not do what Horner did would be fired. This is the name of the game.

Ron Dennis didn't apply team orders this early in the season. I reckon Mercedes took a lot of slack for the 2018 Sochi Bottas order, which was around round 12. I don't buy that Ferrari would have necessarily done this if Sainz was ahead of Leclerc.



#10 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:38

I’m not sure yet if it was fair, but if not for the DRS failure, It would’ve been a non issue as Max would’ve overtaken Checo anyway.

Makes no difference. If DRS doesn't work, then so be it.



#11 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 49,125 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:39

It was nothing like Socchi 2018…

What happened at Sochi 2018? You could tell me that aliens landed on track during the race, zapped Kimi Raikkonen, shared the secret of faster-than-light travel and how to control the weather and I still wouldn't have remembered it.



#12 Scaboo22

Scaboo22
  • Member

  • 1,467 posts
  • Joined: May 21

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:39

Lol this deserves a thread? Max was much quicker with 20 laps to go, no point in having them fight it out

#13 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:41

Lol this deserves a thread? Max was much quicker with 20 laps to go, no point in having them fight it out

Then tell Max to stay behind. That's what you normally do if you want to secure a 1-2. Swapping positions is an explicit team order and very unfair towards the driver who has track position, which is a big advantage.



#14 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 11,290 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:41

Nothing wrong with what Red Bull did. Verstappen is their WDC contender.

#15 Kao18

Kao18
  • Member

  • 5,021 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:41

Lol this deserves a thread? Max was much quicker with 20 laps to go, no point in having them fight it out

Yeah it happens litterally every race with all teams. But of course when RB/Max is involved it needs its own thread, lets make it something controversial...

Max was quicker, had a technical issue hampering overtaking and its an extremely close wdc fight with Charles, not rocket science is it?

Edited by Kao18, 22 May 2022 - 14:55.


#16 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,235 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:43

Yeah it happens litterally every race with all teams. But of course when RB/Max is involved it needs its own thread...

That's absolute nonsense.

 

When was the last time a team made a driver give up a win to their teammate? I'm guessing it wasn't in Miami.



#17 Ben1980

Ben1980
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:44

It was the right call. But woukd have been the right call to let Sergio through earlier

#18 Scaboo22

Scaboo22
  • Member

  • 1,467 posts
  • Joined: May 21

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:44

Then tell Max to stay behind. That's what you normally do if you want to secure a 1-2. Swapping positions is an explicit team order and very unfair towards the driver who has track position, which is a big advantage.


Was was much faster on faster tires it was a guaranteed Verstappen win. No other team would have done it differently.

#19 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 8,107 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:45

I have no problem with the late order.

The order for Perez to stay behind Max and Russel was extremely stupid.

Advertisement

#20 mwf1

mwf1
  • Member

  • 972 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:46

Ohh there’s never team orders at redbull disgusting

#21 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,000 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:46

It's not really an Austria 2002 situation.

 

I did have a slight laugh though when Max was let through the first time that he struggled to get into the DRS gap to Russell (granted, not that it helped Max much when he did!).

 

Max is the winner.  Slightly natural course of things that Perez gets the secondary strategy.



#22 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:46

Was was much faster on faster tires it was a guaranteed Verstappen win. No other team would have done it differently.

If it was a guaranteed win, let him overtake "easily" then. It's nonsense to have the leading driver swap positions at round 6. Sochi 2018 was more understandable.



#23 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:47

It's not really an Austria 2002 situation.

 

I did have a slight laugh though when Max was let through the first time that he struggled to get into the DRS gap to Russell (granted, not that it helped Max much when he did!).

 

Max is the winner.  Slightly natural course of things that Perez gets the secondary strategy.

It could have developed into an Austria 2002 if Cecho acted like Rubens and ignored the team order for 65 out of 66 laps.


Edited by Celloman, 22 May 2022 - 14:47.


#24 SilverArrow31

SilverArrow31
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:48

Ahh its fine.. Verstappen was going to get him anyway and its clear thats the Red bull set up. Perez knew what he was signing up for.

What annoys me is how little outrage this will cause compared to Sochi 2018...

#25 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,031 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:48

Without DRS issues, Verstappen would have cleared Russell long before that. So Perez wouldn't be in contention for the win.

#26 Capeta

Capeta
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:49

It didn't change the final results, it just helped everybody stay calm & focused.
Stop make drama everywhere.



#27 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 3,596 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:49

If it was a guaranteed win, let him overtake "easily" then. It's nonsense to have the leading driver swap positions at round 6. Sochi 2018 was more understandable.


He was so much faster that Sergio. Sochi 2018 isn't a relevant comparison.

#28 Kao18

Kao18
  • Member

  • 5,021 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:50

That's absolute nonsense.

When was the last time a team made a driver give up a win to their teammate? I'm guessing it wasn't in Miami.

Perez was never going to win the way Max was catching him. Well maybe there was a very slim chance but it would have been because the team wasnt able to provide Max with a fully functional (drs) car which would have been 'unfair' from a team standpoint as well...

Edited by Kao18, 22 May 2022 - 14:51.


#29 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,031 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:50

Ahh its fine.. Verstappen was going to get him anyway and its clear thats the Red bull set up. Perez knew what he was signing up for.

What annoys me is how little outrage this will cause compared to Sochi 2018...


Sochi 2018 was worse with the title for Lewis becoming inevitable and Bottas was in front on merit.

#30 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 602 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:51

Perez is at the team to be the 2nd driver



#31 BCNF1

BCNF1
  • Member

  • 423 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:51

That's absolute nonsense.

 

When was the last time a team made a driver give up a win to their teammate? I'm guessing it wasn't in Miami.

No but Perez is here to be the number 2 driver and wingman for Max and he knows this so he should no get upset, or though he could of won also he is at RB to aid Max's championship bid.


Edited by BCNF1, 22 May 2022 - 14:52.


#32 Hellenic tifosi

Hellenic tifosi
  • Member

  • 5,631 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:51

The big difference with Austria 2002 is that back then Ferrari was miles better than everyone else and there was zero risk for the championship. It was a stupid call back then, and a very sensible call (2 calls actually) today.

 

But, what I really hated was the "different strategy" BS. It's actually the same as the infamous "pre season shakedown" saga. We know what's going on, we perfectly understand the reasons - Just don't treat me as an idiot.



#33 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:52

Sochi 2018 was worse with the title for Lewis becoming inevitable and Bottas was in front on merit.

If Max didn't make his dumb mistake, Checo would not have been in front of him at any point. IMO Checo's position was earned.


Edited by Celloman, 22 May 2022 - 14:56.


#34 RekF1

RekF1
  • Member

  • 1,267 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:53

It was nothing like Socchi 2018…


Some comments aged really badly from yesterday.

#35 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,235 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:54

Perez was never going to win the way Max was catching him. Well maybe there was a very slim chance but it would have been because the team wasnt able to provide Max with a fully functional (drs).

Perez is a number 2 driver, he's very fortunate to have the seat he does. It was the right decision to let him through. Max may have beaten him anyway, he's a far superior driver and had fresher tyres.

 

However, if Max hadn't drove into the gravel it wouldn't have been needed, the DRS issue didn't help sure, but it was partly his own fault whilst he was behind. This isn't a situation that happens every race, as you stated.



#36 Heyli

Heyli
  • Member

  • 7,083 posts
  • Joined: May 17

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:54

What happened at Sochi 2018? You could tell me that aliens landed on track during the race, zapped Kimi Raikkonen, shared the secret of faster-than-light travel and how to control the weather and I still wouldn't have remembered it.

wow. Quite amazong that you managed to guess exactly what happened!

#37 SilverArrow31

SilverArrow31
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:54

Sochi 2018 was worse with the title for Lewis becoming inevitable and Bottas was in front on merit.

Strongly disagree... it was clear by then Bottas wouldn't win it. Vettel still could. Here we have 16 more races, anything could happen.

I think thats irrelevant though, they are both team orders to secure a race win. This does not distract from the fact that this will be forgotten in a few days, and Sochi is still brought up to this day to drag Hamilton's achievements down.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 22 May 2022 - 14:56.


#38 RekF1

RekF1
  • Member

  • 1,267 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:55

I thought it was ominous once Perez did the short 2nd stint instead of gapping Russell threat he was being stitched up.

#39 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,235 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:55

No but Perez is here to be the number 2 driver and wingman for Max and he knows this so he should no get upset, or though he could of won also he is at RB to aid Max's championship bid.

Agreed. I thought he knew what his job was tbh. Rocking the boat will do him no favours, he's never going to be WDC, he should enjoy his time in a top car, picking up regular podiums and the occasional pole, win and fastest lap. It's much better than he'll get elsewhere.



Advertisement

#40 jpm2019

jpm2019
  • Member

  • 1,225 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:56

Max was the fastest and best today, also not using team orders could be a risk for both max and checos race, so logical and good calls. Only thing not fair is max not letting perez by when fighting russel. However it looked liked drs would be working soon on the right moment.



#41 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,897 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:57

Storm in a tea cup.

 

A shame for Perez though. I think his anger is very understandable, but it is what it is; Max is the #1 driver, and they want/need to secure him the win. 



#42 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 22,798 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:57

I think there whould have been another option on the second question. In 2002, it wasn't that I hated it as much as I thought it was the wrong decision for Ferrari considering the lead Schumacher had in the championship and that Barrichello had no points up to that race. It showed they hadn't taken in the lesson Silverstone 1999 should have taught them (i.e. that you need a second driver in a reasonable championship position in case something happens to the lead driver).

 

So my option would be 'I thought was the wrong decision then'.

 

Today, I still think it's too early in the season for something like this, but I can understand it better. With Leclerc's issue, they needed to maximize the points for Verstappen, with the added bonus of putting him in the lead of drivers' championship. Pérez is also in a *much* better position in the championship than Barrichello was prior to Austria 2002.


Edited by FLB, 22 May 2022 - 14:59.


#43 geralt

geralt
  • Member

  • 1,301 posts
  • Joined: January 17

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:57

Verstappen was miles quicker and would have not been behind for long without the DRS issues. Team orders were a no brainer and more than reasonable



#44 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 35,606 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:58

I think it only brought forward the lap Max would have taken the lead by a couple of laps. Max was going to have gotten past anyway, so made sense to do it as easily as possible.

Not like Austria 2002 where Rubens had earned that win and was faster all race.

#45 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,031 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:58

If Max didn't make his dumb mistake, Checo would not have been in front of him at any point. IMO Checo's position was earned.

Even with the mistake, Verstappen should have reclaimed the spot if he could rely on his DRS working on the main straight.

#46 zanquis

zanquis
  • Member

  • 4,966 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 22 May 2022 - 14:59

Simply put, there was no way for Checo to hold Max unless he would be risking it all, Max DRS might not work every lap, but the lap it works Max would pass him. Also as they are on very different strategies, no teamboss worth his weight would allow them to fight.

That said from championship point of view RedBull can’t risk. Things are too close with Ferrari and Mercedes might start stealing points soon.

Had this been an equal fight, with similar strategies, yeah it would have been too soon, but it isn’t. If they where on similar strategy the correct call would have been to hold position, but as said before they where not equal.

#47 Touchdown

Touchdown
  • Member

  • 327 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 22 May 2022 - 15:00

Ron Dennis didn't apply team orders this early in the season. I reckon Mercedes took a lot of slack for the 2018 Sochi Bottas order, which was around round 12. I don't buy that Ferrari would have necessarily done this if Sainz was ahead of Leclerc.

This - Ron let DC lead home Hakkinen in a 1-2 as late as Belgium in 1999, and it very nearly cost them the title, but he did what all team principals should - let his drivers race until mathematically one of them couldn't be champion.



#48 pizzalover

pizzalover
  • Member

  • 885 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 22 May 2022 - 15:00

I think a message of race, but not too hard/keep it clean, would have been appropriate. 



#49 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,461 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 22 May 2022 - 15:01

I have changed my mind gradually since 2010 when at the time I bought into the Poor Felipe thing, now I think Ferrari did the right thing even though then it was illegal and that Massa can lump it. I also thought it was the right thing in 2018 and I think it was the right thing today but did note the massive thoughtful silences when Red Bull, who lest we forget in 2010, proclaimed “at Red Bull, we let our drivers RACE”, did the sensible thing twice today.

Multi 21 was still a bridge too far because Webber being told it was safe to drop his guard factored into the overtake by his team mate. 



#50 Beamer

Beamer
  • Member

  • 2,579 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 22 May 2022 - 15:02

Max was 2 sec a lap quicker at that point in the race. It was just common sense.

Edit:

Ps: don't like the poll options. Its not that max deserved to win, it was the 2sec a lap advantage that justified it for me.

Ps2: not at all comparable to the 2002 rubens-micheal situation

Edited by Beamer, 22 May 2022 - 15:05.