342 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

I also think Checo knows if he's constantly in the mix Red Bull won't be able to do it very often. They are now negotiating a new contract, and pretty sure it's important he doesn't just sound ok with it and tries to push for more.

 

If he wants to avoid being moved, then he needs to pull clear of Max in a manner that would make a swap request absolutely embarassing.  He needs to be 20 seconds up the road in P1, with Max P3 and Leclerc out of the race.  And he would have had that if he cleared Russell on lap 3 and then drove off into the sunset with Max stuck behind Russell with malfunctioning DRS.  Checo had a chance to win Spain, but he threw it away being trapped behind Russell in the opening laps. 

Edited by ARTGP, 24 May 2022 - 00:46.

[kumo7]

If he wants to avoid being moved, then he needs to pull clear of Max in a manner that would make a swap request absolutely embarassing.  He needs to be 20 seconds up the road in P1, with Max P3 and Leclerc out of the race.  And he would have had that if he cleared Russell on lap 3 and then drove off into the sunset with Max stuck behind Russell with malfunctioning DRS.  Checo had a chance to win Spain, but he threw it away being trapped behind Russell in the opening laps. 

 

I am not too sure which 'he' you are talking about, as especially because, I DO THINK, Max needed to be asked if he wants it.

(your sentence is more than clear you point at Perez).

 

The obscene feeling of this "position change" team order comes from when Michael Schumacher expressed his resentment, sort of, on the podium and gave the honer back to Rubens.

Obviously Michael did not wanted it to happen. 

 

 

Let them race is the way to go, but RedBull did not, ... This should have good reasons.

 

The implementation means that Red Bull is on the edge already, perhaps it spend al the budget in changing and perhaps Pu failure means it may not have enough to end the season.

I expect we might see even worse scenes...

Like RedBull cannot race two car on the race grid after one of them finish one lap?

Edited by kumo7, 24 May 2022 - 03:32.

[PayasYouRace]

Has any driver ever conceded to a blatant team order (handing a win to a teammate), yet gone on to be a world champion?

Thinking of Patrese, Berger, Barrichello, Fisichella, Irvine, Coulthard, Massa, Webber, Bottas, Perez and Ricciardo...who I think have all met this criteria... I think the answer is probably no.

Schumacher in Malaysia 1999.

Damon Hill allowed Prost a win or two in 1993 too. France definitely.

[Boxerevo]

I think the move over order was fine.
The compromised strategy on the 2nd stop was not. He had tyres to go and not be that slow vs Max.
They kind of orchestrated Max having a huge tyre advantage vs Checo

I absolutely agree.

[Celloman]

Has any driver ever conceded to a blatant team order (handing a win to a teammate), yet gone on to be a world champion?

 

Thinking of Patrese, Berger, Barrichello, Fisichella, Irvine, Coulthard, Massa, Webber, Bottas, Perez and Ricciardo...who I think have all met this criteria... I think the answer is probably no. 

Raikkonen slowed down a lot to let Massa get P2 in China 2008 just a year after his championship with Ferrari. Under certain circumstances like Kimi in 2008 or Michael in 1999 I think most drivers would do it.

 

Team orders were never any problem for me when it was mathematically impossible or at least near impossible. The problem is the target has constantly moved over the years. People were upset Massa had to give in to "Fernando is faster than you", which was round 11 that year. Now it's round six.

 

And yeah, the excuses Horner gave are very much reminiscent of some race from 1998 when Irvine supposedly had to "save his brakes" and accidentally Schumacher got past.

[IrvTheSwerve]

The obscene feeling of this "position change" team order comes from when Michael Schumacher expressed his resentment, sort of, on the podium and gave the honer back to Rubens.

Obviously Michael did not wanted it to happen.

Oh Schumacher wanted it to happen, make no mistake. The whole podium stunt was because he was embarrassed of the crowd reaction and booing.

 

In post race interviews he stated multiple times that Ferrari would have looked stupid if they went on to lose the championship by a point or two…

[shure]

Oh Schumacher wanted it to happen, make no mistake. The whole podium stunt was because he was embarrassed of the crowd reaction and booing.

In post race interviews he stated multiple times that Ferrari would have looked stupid if they went on to lose the championship by a point or two…

I suspect you may be right, but I will say that interviews are rarely 100% reflective of a driver’s true thoughts as PR tends to be involved

[SophieB]

Yep. Monaco 2016.

This is true but missing the context that Rosberg had glazed his brakes pretty spectacularly and was having difficulty keeping it on the track. I really think they would have done the same whichever Mercedes driver that happened to at that track.

 

For Mercedes team orders oddness, I think the very late swap back between Hamilton and Bottas at the Hungarian GP a couple of years ago takes some beating. They had asked Bottas to let Hamilton buy to see if he had better luck at pulling off an overtake and he did… and was eventually miles and miles down the road. Everyone in the thread was going nuts about Poor Bottas but Lewis was keen to give the place back and they did, even though it was clunky and difficult to pull off, Nottas was sooooo far back. From vague memory (and I’ve shown this can be less than flawless recall with me), DC and Brundle thought this was sweet but also absolutely nuts. An interesting illustration into possibly changing different attitudes to TOs.

[FortiFord]

Checo didn't catch up fast enough to even make himself a factor. He wasn't on Verstappens bumper consistently 

 

He was told to wait 2 seconds behind him by his RE. 

[TheWilliamzer]

Perez was the reason Max got a WDC so RB better keep him happy.

[shure]

I am not too sure which 'he' you are talking about, as especially because, I DO THINK, Max needed to be asked if he wants it.

(your sentence is more than clear you point at Perez).

 

The obscene feeling of this "position change" team order comes from when Michael Schumacher expressed his resentment, sort of, on the podium and gave the honer back to Rubens.

Obviously Michael did not wanted it to happen. 

 

 

Let them race is the way to go, but RedBull did not, ... This should have good reasons.

 

The implementation means that Red Bull is on the edge already, perhaps it spend al the budget in changing and perhaps Pu failure means it may not have enough to end the season.

I expect we might see even worse scenes...

Like RedBull cannot race two car on the race grid after one of them finish one lap?

I don't really agree it means RB are on the edge already.  They've been in enough close title battles to know that every little point counts, and especially with last year going down to the wire it just appears to me that they are being pragmatic in trying to ensure their maximum points haul for their likely WDC contender, to try to give a little extra breathing room against any as yet unforeseen future incidents or problems.  I don't see anything that suggests it's anything more than that, not yet anyway

[BCNF1]

This will be the first of many team orders for RB, and any driver alongside Max, especially now with the championship behind his back and challenging for this one and future championships, we will most likely see more of this just like the Schumacher with Barrichello/Irvine.

 

If people feel that is wrong it is not their team, and it is the way it is, these team orders have been a part of some teams policies for a while even as early as the season as it is.

[BCNF1]

Perez was the reason Max got a WDC so RB better keep him happy.

I think Masi would have something to say about that also.

[Requiem84]

This will be the first of many team orders for RB, and any driver alongside Max, especially now with the championship behind his back and challenging for this one and future championships, we will most likely see more of this just like the Schumacher with Barrichello/Irvine.

If people feel that is wrong it is not their team, and it is the way it is, these team orders have been a part of some teams policies for a while even as early as the season as it is.

It took a) Max first off track in a very long time and b) a malfunctioning DRS to get in this situation.

Perez rarely has been in the situation that he has been ahead, apart from him running a different strategy.

It didn’t happen much in the past because none of his team mates had been ahead in races. And it won’t happen often with Perez either, because he will rarely qualify in front of Verstappen.

So no, we won’t be seeing this often.

[Requiem84]

I think Masi would have something to say about that also.

Let’s keep Masi talk in the right topic please.

[GentlemanDriver091]

What an absolute nothing burger this topic is!

Perez was on a 2-stop strategy, as confirmed by his radio after the race and by Horner. After he moved over he had to stop once more, to finish the race.

[Sterzo]

Nottas was sooooo far back...

Of all the unkind comments about Bottas, in all the threads in all the forums in the World....

[mcjohnson]

It's plain to see that, not only are we not going to see any wheel-to-wheel racing between the Red Bulls this year, but that - in almost all situations - Perez will be a pawn utilized in whatever manner Horner deems necessary to get Max the win.  This is fine in the final race of the season, where Perez has no chance to either win the championship, or even improve his WDC standings, but in race 5 of the season it is exceptionally disappointing.  From the highs of his support role at the finale of last years' championship, I am sure Perez is now questioning his role at Red Bull - I don't think he ever went with the intention of being so second fiddle.

[BCNF1]

It took a) Max first off track in a very long time and b) a malfunctioning DRS to get in this situation.

Perez rarely has been in the situation that he has been ahead, apart from him running a different strategy.

It didn’t happen much in the past because none of his team mates had been ahead in races. And it won’t happen often with Perez either, because he will rarely qualify in front of Verstappen.

So no, we won’t be seeing this often.

We will see it more often if the situation arises where Perez is ahead, but you are right also, Perez is one of the worst qualifiers on the grid, so long as Max nails his qualifying Perez won't be anywhere near him unless it's mistakes/tactically reasons, then we will see this more often.

[Requiem84]

We will see it more often if the situation arises where Perez is ahead, but you are right also, Perez is one of the worst qualifiers on the grid, so long as Max nails his qualifying Perez won't be anywhere near him unless it's mistakes/tactically reasons, then we will see this more often.

I think the point is that we would have seen exactly the same last year, but Perez was even further behind last year.

I had the impression that you think it’s now suddenly something new, but Perez always has been the #2 driver, as he is simply a lot slower than Verstappen over the course of a season. The fact that we only now have a topic about team orders with RB is 95% the result of the fact it was the first time in about 30 races together that Perez could have actually fought with Verstappen for position.

[F1 Mike]

In this scenario I don't see the problem. It's clear it's very likely to be Max vs Leclerc and possibly a Mercedes at the top of the table. Perez hasn't so far indicated he'll be fighting at the front every race against Charles.

No brainer

[IrvTheSwerve]

I think Horner/Redbull/Marko know that they've got Perez by the balls too - Perez was on his way out of F1 (likely for good) and they offered him a seat in one of the fastest cars on the grid.

 

I think Perez also respects this and will bend backwards for them if it means that he stays there for multiple years.

 

It's a perfect storm for Redbull, they have a competent number 2 who won't trouble Max and won't rock the boat either if given team orders. 

[Sam1]

Without DRS issues, Verstappen would have cleared Russell long before that. So Perez wouldn't be in contention for the win.

But he was it's dispirited show of the rules for red bull to do this what feels like race in race out no wonder they no longer have a young driver program vettel a the likes seen the light

[Ivanhoe]

It's plain to see that, not only are we not going to see any wheel-to-wheel racing between the Red Bulls this year, but that - in almost all situations - Perez will be a pawn utilized in whatever manner Horner deems necessary to get Max the win.  This is fine in the final race of the season, where Perez has no chance to either win the championship, or even improve his WDC standings, but in race 5 of the season it is exceptionally disappointing.  From the highs of his support role at the finale of last years' championship, I am sure Perez is now questioning his role at Red Bull - I don't think he ever went with the intention of being so second fiddle.

Just as we won't see Charles and Carlos fighting tooth and nail for position this season and as we didn't see it with Lewis and Bottas last season. In a tight championship with a clear number 1 driver this will be how all top teams work.

[SenorSjon]

I am not too sure which 'he' you are talking about, as especially because, I DO THINK, Max needed to be asked if he wants it.

(your sentence is more than clear you point at Perez).

 

The obscene feeling of this "position change" team order comes from when Michael Schumacher expressed his resentment, sort of, on the podium and gave the honer back to Rubens.

Obviously Michael did not wanted it to happen. 

 

 

Let them race is the way to go, but RedBull did not, ... This should have good reasons.

 

The implementation means that Red Bull is on the edge already, perhaps it spend al the budget in changing and perhaps Pu failure means it may not have enough to end the season.

I expect we might see even worse scenes...

Like RedBull cannot race two car on the race grid after one of them finish one lap?

 

1) Engines are not in the cost cap.

2) Don't listen to Binotto.

2) I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

Perez was the reason Max got a WDC so RB better keep him happy.

 

Perez also finished in front of Lewis only twice last year. So yes, his defence in AD was great, the rest of the season he wasn't too useful in grabbing points from Lewis. 

 

It's plain to see that, not only are we not going to see any wheel-to-wheel racing between the Red Bulls this year, but that - in almost all situations - Perez will be a pawn utilized in whatever manner Horner deems necessary to get Max the win.  This is fine in the final race of the season, where Perez has no chance to either win the championship, or even improve his WDC standings, but in race 5 of the season it is exceptionally disappointing.  From the highs of his support role at the finale of last years' championship, I am sure Perez is now questioning his role at Red Bull - I don't think he ever went with the intention of being so second fiddle.

 

How often did we see Perez and Max near enough for a wheel-to-wheel battle? Remember how last year the final race was entered tied on points. If you are 8-9 ahead, you are a lot safer. Every points count. It also helps pile on the pressure on the other team.

 

But he was it's dispirited show of the rules for red bull to do this what feels like race in race out no wonder they no longer have a young driver program vettel a the likes seen the light

 

Race in, race out?! This was the first time and it happened because Max went wide AND had a flaky DRS. Otherwise this would have been a non issue.

[kumo7]

1) Engines are not in the cost cap.
2) Don't listen to Binotto.
2) I have no clue what you are talking about.


Perez also finished in front of Lewis only twice last year. So yes, his defence in AD was great, the rest of the season he wasn't too useful in grabbing points from Lewis.


How often did we see Perez and Max near enough for a wheel-to-wheel battle? Remember how last year the final race was entered tied on points. If you are 8-9 ahead, you are a lot safer. Every points count. It also helps pile on the pressure on the other team.


Race in, race out?! This was the first time and it happened because Max went wide AND had a flaky DRS. Otherwise this would have been a non issue.

IC

Think about what Seb us doing now? He won four championships with RedBull, in a mighty fashion.

I would not say the same will happen to Max, but for Max winning should come on his merit. Max can say no to the way he does not see as the racing.

[GentlemanDriver091]

IC

Think about what Seb us doing now? He won four championships with RedBull, in a mighty fashion.

I would not say the same will happen to Max, but for Max winning should come on his merit. Max can say no to the way he does not see as the racing.

Why would he? Perez had to stop anyway, they were on a different strategy.

[MikeTekRacing]

I think Masi would have something to say about that also.

there is no Masi in the picture if Checo doesn't mess up Lewis in Abu Dhabi - he would have easily had a window to pit

[SophieB]

I think Horner/Redbull/Marko know that they've got Perez by the balls too - Perez was on his way out of F1 (likely for good) and they offered him a seat in one of the fastest cars on the grid.
 
I think Perez also respects this and will bend backwards for them if it means that he stays there for multiple years.
 
It's a perfect storm for Redbull, they have a competent number 2 who won't trouble Max and won't rock the boat either if given team orders.

It’s interesting that nonetheless Checo sounds surprised and increasingly frustrated that his efforts to aid Verstappen’s race are not reciprocated over team radio.



Maybe some just don’t want to believe their team status and the team are mostly happy to indulge that? 

[SophieB]

Again, I stress that I think Red Bull made the right call. I think these things should be clear to everyone in the team, though I guess.

[garoidb]

I think Horner/Redbull/Marko know that they've got Perez by the balls too - Perez was on his way out of F1 (likely for good) and they offered him a seat in one of the fastest cars on the grid.

 

I think Perez also respects this and will bend backwards for them if it means that he stays there for multiple years.

 

It's a perfect storm for Redbull, they have a competent number 2 who won't trouble Max and won't rock the boat either if given team orders. 

 

It used to be that being the slower Ferrari driver was one of the best gigs going in F1 in terms of combining occasional opportunities for good results with monetary reward and no unrealistic performance expectations. Maybe this could be the same sort of gig for Sergio? It certainly beats not being in F1 and is better than being at many of the midfield teams (once you have been there and done that). All the post-F1 opportunities will still be there when it comes to an end and will be all the better for having added a few more Red Bull wins to the CV. However, the guys who have these great seats never really seem all that happy  .

[MikeTekRacing]

It’s interesting that nonetheless Checo sounds surprised and increasingly frustrated that his efforts to aid Verstappen’s race are not reciprocated over team radio.



Maybe some just don’t want to believe their team status and the team are mostly happy to indulge that? 

if you listen to his messages, he makes very good points. He is asked to move over for Max to have a go, but when coming with a lot more pace and Max still struggling he is asked to back off.

I don't think he has any problem in helping Verstappen, but the way they were running the race - he was not allowed to fully exploit his strategy. 

 

if you also listen to his radio in the last stint (before the one with the fastest lap) he asks a few times if the pace is good and or he needs to go faster and he is told his pace is good. Add this to making his 2nd stint uselessly short "to cover for Russel" - he had more gap to cover Russel and he would have been again on much fresher tyres (so passing Russel was not a problem with tyre difference). It makes the whole argument "move over because Max is faster now" kind of futile. Of course he is faster if you engineered the strategy for Max to have a HUGE tyre offset and did not allow Checo to fully exploit his strategy.

 

Don't sell it as Max is faster, sell it as it is, we want Max to win. As you point out, this should be clearly spoken by the team internally. Otherwise it's frustrating to be impeded by your own team to make it look like the other drive is faster on a day. it's worse than asked to move over.

 

(p.s. i said it a few times, Max is a better bet by quite some margin over the whole season. On this race, with Max's mistake and his flaky DRS - Checo had a real chance to win, engineered away by his own team.)
(p.p.s. the DRS topic is also interesting because Max is the only driver that got the "weight reduced" part - with the problem. It brings the question, again, how equal are the two cars anyway for us to compare)

[GentlemanDriver091]

if you listen to his messages, he makes very good points. He is asked to move over for Max to have a go, but when coming with a lot more pace and Max still struggling he is asked to back off.
I don't think he has any problem in helping Verstappen, but the way they were running the race - he was not allowed to fully exploit his strategy.

if you also listen to his radio in the last stint (before the one with the fastest lap) he asks a few times if the pace is good and or he needs to go faster and he is told his pace is good. Add this to making his 2nd stint uselessly short "to cover for Russel" - he had more gap to cover Russel and he would have been again on much fresher tyres (so passing Russel was not a problem with tyre difference). It makes the whole argument "move over because Max is faster now" kind of futile. Of course he is faster if you engineered the strategy for Max to have a HUGE tyre offset and did not allow Checo to fully exploit his strategy.

Don't sell it as Max is faster, sell it as it is, we want Max to win. As you point out, this should be clearly spoken by the team internally. Otherwise it's frustrating to be impeded by your own team to make it look like the other drive is faster on a day. it's worse than asked to move over.

(p.s. i said it a few times, Max is a better bet by quite some margin over the whole season. On this race, with Max's mistake and his flaky DRS - Checo had a real chance to win, engineered away by his own team.)
(p.p.s. the DRS topic is also interesting because Max is the only driver that got the "weight reduced" part - with the problem. It brings the question, again, how equal are the two cars anyway for us to compare)

Since you’ve apparently listened to the radio, you would know that Perez had to do another stop before the end of the race, where Max was not. There was no reason to held Max up.

Edit: There you go:

Board radio Horner to Checo after the finish:

H: ‘It turned out the 3-stop was the better option so I think we just run out of tyres at the end there’

C: ‘Yep’

Edited by GentlemanDriver091, 24 May 2022 - 18:21.

[MikeTekRacing]

that's exactly why cutting his 2nd stint short was bad. It did not allow him to fully utilize his strategy

[GentlemanDriver091]

that's exactly why cutting his 2nd stint short was bad. It did not allow him to fully utilize his strategy

True, but that already happened at the time he had to let Max by.

[MikeTekRacing]

sure, as i said, it was engineered for Max to have a huge tyre offset in the last stint

 

the engineer even told Max that over the radio....he is going to have a huge advantage at the end. So they knew exactly what they were doing. 

[HeadFirst]

It's easy to have "I'd be WDC if only I was in the WDC leading car!" delusions, when you are at Racing Point. Now Checo finds himself in the WDC car and realty sets in. It must be discouraging.

[alframsey]

I absolutely hate team orders and as a Perez fan it was hard to watch but, honestly, people can't give red bull a hard time. They just did what they needed, Sergio isn't going to mount a title tilt and Max needs as many points as possible especially if Merc enter the fight on a regular basis.

I really dislike red bull and team orders generally but they did what any right minded team with an aim to win would do.

[ensign14]

Has any driver ever conceded to a blatant team order (handing a win to a teammate), yet gone on to be a world champion?

Phil Hill, Morocco 1958.

[Paa]

sure, as i said, it was engineered for Max to have a huge tyre offset in the last stint

 

the engineer even told Max that over the radio....he is going to have a huge advantage at the end. So they knew exactly what they were doing. 

 

Checo's race was compromised in order to help Max, there is no question about that.

However, after Verstappen's spun, they were basically right next to each other with only 15% of the race completed.

 

Based on past experience it was expected that Max was going to have quicker race pace and have a 10s+ lead by the end so no surprise there.

They engineered the position change to make it smoother. It was not nice, but practical.

[ARTGP]

Has any driver ever conceded to a blatant team order (handing a win to a teammate), yet gone on to be a world champion?

 

Thinking of Patrese, Berger, Barrichello, Fisichella, Irvine, Coulthard, Massa, Webber, Bottas, Perez and Ricciardo...who I think have all met this criteria... I think the answer is probably no. 

 

Surely it must have happened in one of the Rosberg-Ham years? Not that one was told to simply hand the win to the other, but the idea that Merc called off the dogs, so to speak, preferring to just bring home a 1-2 finish late in one of the races.  So surely at one point, Hamilton in 2014 and 2015 or Rosberg in 2016 was told to back off in the closing laps which technically handed the win to the teammate without challenge, but then said driver won the WDC anyway.

Edited by ARTGP, 24 May 2022 - 19:22.

[kumo7]

Why would he? Perez had to stop anyway, they were on a different strategy.

 

I mean, think of it, the strategy is "designed" by the team. 

 

Besides, I think the harder Max work, the better for him to keep his racing life longer and more successful.

Easy win like Seb had would make him a lesser driver... You could still argue if Seb had more straight fight with Webber more than what actually had, he may won two titles ar RedBull and there after Seb would have NOT beein in the red car. HAM seemed to have less of "interventions" by which he took seven.

[ARTGP]

 

Speaking to Channel 4, he said that while he and Ocon may have enjoyed it, his employers did not.

 

 

 

“For us it was fine, for our bosses it was a little too close,” the two-time World Champion said.

“We respect each other a lot, but it is true that Laurent [Rossi – Alpine CEO] and Otmar after the race they said ‘maybe that was too close and I know you both trust each other, but we would like to have less competition on track’.”

 

Regarding the Ocon-Alonso battle in Saudi Arabia. https://www.planetf1...ss-competition/  

 

The bosses were not having it