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Unpopular Motorsport Opinions (Merged)


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#4051 Vesuvius

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 13:11

I think the Hakkinen/Leclerc analogy falls down when it comes to wheel to wheel racing actually. Hakkinen was more of a one-trick pony. He was fast. He drove quickly in nice dry conditions and didn't really do much else. Obviously there was that memorable pass on Schumacher at Spa, but that was the exception rather than the rule. He was very much a product of the no-overtaking era. Schumacher was much more likely to get stuck in.


Mika had a couple of overtaking shows, France 1999 and Austria 1999.

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#4052 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 13:28

Should we compare Charles to Jean Alesi instead or is that too obvious


Yes we should. It’s spot on.

#4053 lustigson

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 13:46

You sure he still has a Belgian passport?

 

I don't know. But I'm equally unsure whether Verstappen has a Dutch passport. I mean: he races on a Dutch license, but that's basically regardless of one's nationality, isn't it?



#4054 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 14:23

We can, but we would be wrong.

Leclerc's talent is at least one level above Alesi.

I'd agree. Alesi never lived up to the Tyrrell hype.

#4055 mjjTT

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 14:48

I don't know. But I'm equally unsure whether Verstappen has a Dutch passport. I mean: he races on a Dutch license, but that's basically regardless of one's nationality, isn't it?

Verstappen applied for a dutch passport when he was 18. As far as I know he had to give up his belgian citizenship. 

 

So you can still say Belgium has the youngest ever formula 1 driver.



#4056 Collombin

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 15:01

Careful with the passport approach, Rindt only ever held a German one but is considered (not least by himself) to have been Austrian.

#4057 Dolph

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 15:03

Should we compare Charles to Jean Alesi instead or is that too obvious

 

I don' think so. Leclerc beat Vettel and Sainz. He is way better than Alesi was at his time.



#4058 Risil

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 15:08

I never really rated those two that highly.



#4059 AnttiK

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 15:50

Should we compare Charles to Jean Alesi instead or is that too obvious

I think Leclerc is closer to Arnoux than Alesi. I love Alesi, but I don't think he was quite as fast as (prime) Arnoux or Leclerc. Arnoux could be blindingly fast on one lap but he could also be somewhat erratic and randomly off the pace in the races. And then he spent way too many years in bad Ligiers so people tend to forget how good he could be at his best (1982-83). Also, just like Leclerc, Arnoux could be pretty feisty in wheel to wheel battles. Alesi to me was like Gilles on steroids, but not quite as fast.



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#4060 George Costanza

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 16:18

McLaren was a bit of a mess operationally in 1999. Among other things, I have never quite understood how DC was allowed to win at Spa that year, it would have been very easy to issue team orders just like Ferrari had done at Hockenheim. Coulthard was already 20 points behind Häkkinen and Irvine at that point with only four races to go after Spa. Letting Coulthard win made no sense at that stage of the season.

In a Finnish podcast interview last year Mika seemed still quite bitter about that race and raised it as an example how McLaren didn't support him enough in those years. He said that McLaren should have made Coulthard a clear number 2 driver in those years and he also implied that he would have won the title in 2000 if McLaren had done that.

2000 season... McLaren wasn't the most reliable. The fastest yes. However I do think if Mika won in Japan in 2000, he probably wins the championship. I also believe on a single lap, Mika is the fastest of his time in F1. Even quicker than Michael.

Edited by George Costanza, 11 May 2023 - 16:24.


#4061 George Costanza

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 16:21

I'd agree. Alesi never lived up to the Tyrrell hype.

That was all Jean's own fault by going to Ferrari.

#4062 Spillage

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 16:24

I think Leclerc is probably the best qualifier on the grid, which I don't think I'd ever have said about Alesi or Arnoux. I'm pretty confident Leclerc Will go on to be world champion and so eclipse those two, but I have this feeling that it won't be in a Ferrari.

#4063 Dan333SP

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 16:33

2000 season... McLaren wasn't the most reliable. The fastest yes. However I do think if Mika won in Japan in 2000, he probably wins the championship. I also believe on a single lap, Mika is the fastest of his time in F1. Even quicker than Michael.

 

Was listening to the Bring Back V10s podcast and they rated the Mika/Senna 1993 Mclaren lineup as possibly the quickest driver pairing of all time. Hard to argue against that, but it's also tough to say whether 1993 Mika was as quick as '98-'00 Mika after a bit more experience at the top of the sport. 



#4064 Collombin

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 16:35

I think Leclerc is probably the best qualifier on the grid, which I don't think I'd ever have said about Alesi or Arnoux

Arnoux had a pretty good claim for a few years I would say, including (but concluding with) his first year at Ferrari.

Edit - fwiw, looking at the 5 years 1979-83, Arnoux seemingly had 18 poles, nobody else got above 10.

Edited by Collombin, 11 May 2023 - 16:54.


#4065 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 16:47

I also believe on a single lap, Mika is the fastest of his time in F1. Even quicker than Michael.

 

 

I think Leclerc is probably the best qualifier on the grid, which I don't think I'd ever have said about Alesi or Arnoux.

 

I think my previous post is still a valid response to these.

 

I've previously compared Leclerc to Hakkinen in my own mind (with Verstappen as Schumacher as Spillage says). It think it's quite good because some people would claim that Hakkinen was the better qualifier like they do with Leclerc now. But this was based on cherry-picking, looking at Hakkinen/Leclerc's best laps, rather than how they perform over a whole season. Schumacher would have had a much better qualifying head to head against Coulthard than Hakkinen would, and Verstappen would over Sainz. Whether the absolute best of Hakkinen/Leclerc was/is better than the best of Schumacher/Verstappen at qualifying is a different question to who was/is better at qualifying, and it's also far harder to judge, as it's even harder to subtract the car in a one-off than it is over time.

 

I also think another possible analogy is Montoya, although I'd definitely rate Hakkinen and Leclerc above him. But there was a time when some people thought Montoya was the best qualifier in F1. This probably peaked with his five consecutive poles in 2002. But over the season, his head-to-head against Ralf wasn't much better than 50/50.

 

By the way, I noted in my head that last year at Baku, Sainz was actually quickest after the first runs in Q3. If he'd had the same luck with the red flag that Leclerc did in 2021, he would have had an equivalent pole. Leclerc was lucky at both Monaco and Baku in that respect, and Monaco was actually was actually Leclerc's own crash. So I do think circumstances have played their part in the making of the Leclerc legend.



#4066 F1matt

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 18:17

That was all Jean's own fault by going to Ferrari.

 

 

I couldn't see him fitting in at Williams, he always look destined to fail and never looked like a complete driver who could deliver when it really mattered. I think that adds to his charm, not everyone is meant to be a perfect title winning driver. 



#4067 Ferrim

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 20:48

That was all Jean's own fault by going to Ferrari.


Not so clear cut. Bring Back V10s have an episode about Alesi's 1990 season which puts a lot of light on that. Williams had an option on Alesi, but it wasn't looking like they were going to take it.

Edited by Ferrim, 11 May 2023 - 20:49.


#4068 absinthedude

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 08:53

While he would undoubtedly had more success if he'd gone to Williams....(wasn't there a third team he said he'd drive for in 1991 as well?)....I think Jean himself is happy that he was a Ferrari driver. Winning that one grand prix for Ferrari meant more to him than winning 10 for Williams. 

 

Was he WDC material? It's hard to tell. He as blisteringly fast in 1989/90 and exploded onto the scene in a way I've probably not seen before or since. But he was never the complete package. He should have achieved more than he did, but some are just not cut out for greatness. Always exciting and fondly remembered behind the wheel though. But when it came down to it, in decent cars Berger often got the better results when they were paired together. And Berger wasn't WDC material. Bloody good driver but never likely to lift the crown. 



#4069 ensign14

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 09:36

Alesi was WDC material, never the best driver in any given season but he could definitely have Rosberged* a title with a fair wind.  You could say that about lots of drivers though. 

 

* either of them



#4070 Alfisti

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 11:41

Yeah I'm not sold a rosberg or button is better than a bunch of drivers that got close to a wdc

#4071 Cornholio

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 11:49

Aside from the Piastri-esque stuff going on in 1990 with Williams's "options", Ferrari were actually the more competitive team at the time Alesi elected to join them, and for some time, (arguably going back to the final 2 or 3 races of 1987 when Berger was suddenly the class of the field). Williams had just gotten Newey but he was more of a rising star than undisputed F1 design king at that point.

 

It was the wrong move in hindsight given how things panned out but he'd be far from the first or last driver that happened to.



#4072 absinthedude

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 20:14

Aside from the Piastri-esque stuff going on in 1990 with Williams's "options", Ferrari were actually the more competitive team at the time Alesi elected to join them, and for some time, (arguably going back to the final 2 or 3 races of 1987 when Berger was suddenly the class of the field). Williams had just gotten Newey but he was more of a rising star than undisputed F1 design king at that point.

 

It was the wrong move in hindsight given how things panned out but he'd be far from the first or last driver that happened to.

 

Williams were on the up, but the way Ferrari spectacularly crashed and burned after being fully competitive in 1990 was not predicted by anyone at the time. From 6 wins in 1990 with a car the class of the field to occasional podium visitors in 1991 to utter crap in 1992 and 1993. 



#4073 azza200

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 22:15

WEC/ IMSA the LMP/DPi/ Hypercars are more interesting cars then F1 now and i would say the hypercars and the old LMP1 cars were the pinnacle of motorsport &  engineering and not F1. 



#4074 Beri

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 23:10

Williams were on the up, but the way Ferrari spectacularly crashed and burned after being fully competitive in 1990 was not predicted by anyone at the time. From 6 wins in 1990 with a car the class of the field to occasional podium visitors in 1991 to utter crap in 1992 and 1993.


By the time Alesi had to pick, Williams even was 5th in the championship (4th at the end of 1990) and Ferrari was in full contention for both titles. Calling Williams on the up, is not even moderately positive. That's extremely positive.
Hindsight tells a different story, ofcourse. But that's easy to judge.

#4075 messy

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 07:47

The thing with Alesi is that I don’t think he ever remotely demonstrated that raw one-lap brilliance Leclerc has. He was spectacular and exciting, he wore his heart on his sleeve and I can see why people loved him, but he was also outqualified by Gerhard Berger a lot.

#4076 absinthedude

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 09:52

By the time Alesi had to pick, Williams even was 5th in the championship (4th at the end of 1990) and Ferrari was in full contention for both titles. Calling Williams on the up, is not even moderately positive. That's extremely positive.
Hindsight tells a different story, ofcourse. But that's easy to judge.

 

WIlliams were on the up. From also-rans in 1988 to winners again with the Renault V10 in 1989 and 1990. It was becoming clear quickly that a V10 was the way to go rather than the Ferrari or upcoming Honda V12, or the V8s on the grid at the time. And those among us who had noticed Adrian Newey's March F1 and IndyCar designs weren't all that surprised when the 1991 Williams turned out to be so good. Williams were also the first team after Ferrari to have a semi-auto gearbox for 1991 when everyone else was still running manual boxes. They were on the up, though I don't think anyone predicted just how dominant they'd be in coming years. Nor did anyone predict how far and how quickly Ferrari would fall. 



#4077 Beri

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 11:01

I call a lot being hindsight. Newey wasn't a certainty and the V10 was more nimble but nowhere near as accepted as the V8 or V12. Williams did win again, but also this was no guarantee that it would be a powerhouse that it became.

#4078 garoidb

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 11:09

Aside from the Piastri-esque stuff going on in 1990 with Williams's "options", Ferrari were actually the more competitive team at the time Alesi elected to join them, and for some time, (arguably going back to the final 2 or 3 races of 1987 when Berger was suddenly the class of the field). Williams had just gotten Newey but he was more of a rising star than undisputed F1 design king at that point.

 

It was the wrong move in hindsight given how things panned out but he'd be far from the first or last driver that happened to.

 

I believe Prost had the same choice for the 1990 season (i.e. making the decision approximately 1 year before Jean). He also chose Ferrari and I doubt it was for sentimental reasons. Alain obviously got a second chance to move to Williams later, but what if he had taken the leap for 1990 and been incumbent for 1991 and 1992? So, yeah, hindsight is perfect but a bit too easy after the fact. 



#4079 Garagista

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 11:46

Comparing Alesi with Charles seems correct at surface level, but re-watching the 90's, Alesi was something else, he has 10x more unreliable than Charles.

The highlights are, fantastic Alesi overtaking X driver, 10 laps later, Alesi is in the gravel trying to re-join the track. I was even amazed, as I didn't know he was such a wild cat.

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#4080 LolaB0860

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 12:02

WEC/ IMSA the LMP/DPi/ Hypercars are more interesting cars then F1 now and i would say the hypercars and the old LMP1 cars were the pinnacle of motorsport &  engineering and not F1. 

 

Balance of performance is the pinnacle of engineering?



#4081 PlatenGlass

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 12:06

Comparing Alesi with Charles seems correct at surface level, but re-watching the 90's, Alesi was something else, he has 10x more unreliable than Charles.

The highlights are, fantastic Alesi overtaking X driver, 10 laps later, Alesi is in the gravel trying to re-join the track. I was even amazed, as I didn't know he was such a wild cat.

Plus Alesi's speed gets over-rated in the telling. There was never a point where he was even close to the conversation of "best qualifier".

Those two wet races at the end of 1995 though - Nurburgring and Suzuka - very impressive and probably his best work.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 13 May 2023 - 12:07.


#4082 Spillage

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 12:09

I dunno about Alesi. He was spectacular but he wasn't really on Prost's pace when he did go to Ferrari. I find it hard to see hin doing great things at Williams in the 1990s - I just don't think he was better than Mansell, Prost, Senna or Hill.

#4083 George Costanza

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 20:09

Jean probably would have won the 1992 and 1993 Championships in those Williams cars.

Let's say he partner up with Riccardo in 92. And then Damon Hill in 93.

Edited by George Costanza, 13 May 2023 - 20:10.


#4084 F1matt

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Posted 14 May 2023 - 17:00

Jean probably would have won the 1992 and 1993 Championships in those Williams cars.

Let's say he partner up with Riccardo in 92. And then Damon Hill in 93.

 

 

At best I could see Alesi as number 2 driver at Williams to Mansell and Prost, Renault and the title sponsor liked a big name, even in 1994 they brought Mansell back for a few races when he didn't have Indycar clashes. 



#4085 Beri

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Posted 14 May 2023 - 18:49

Jean probably would have won the 1992 and 1993 Championships in those Williams cars.
Let's say he partner up with Riccardo in 92. And then Damon Hill in 93.


In no way Mansell would have been kept out. Patrese would have gotten the boot in favor of a line up with Alesi and Mansell. Yet, Alesi would never have beaten Mansell.

#4086 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 May 2023 - 19:00

In no way Mansell would have been kept out. Patrese would have gotten the boot in favor of a line up with Alesi and Mansell. Yet, Alesi would never have beaten Mansell.

 

But Mansell had retired. He only came back when Frank Williams needed someone in what would have been Alesi's seat, and Sir Frank gave him a good enough offer to do so.



#4087 Beri

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Posted 14 May 2023 - 19:12

I remember it being more that Mansell didn't have any options and somewhat semi retired due to this. Then Sir Frank got him on the phone and the rest is history. But I sincerely think Mansell would have always been in that Williams seat even with Alesi in the other one.