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BBC: F1 wants Monaco track changes for future Grands Prix


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#1 Risil

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 09:57

This forum's favourite F1 journalist Andrew Benson has managed another scoop, this time putting loads of detail on what exactly F1/Liberty want from the Automobile Club de Monaco in exchange for more delicious, yacht-heavy F1 races. Beyond the sanctioning fee and relatively low max attendance, the main issues are three: control of the (bad) TV broadcast, control of trackside advertising (no more billboards for competitors to F1's Rolex), and most interestingly for us, changes (minor obviously) to the circuit layout.

 

 

Then there's the track itself. The lack of overtaking in Monaco has long been accepted as part of the event, something that cannot be avoided because of the location of the race.

 

But F1 feels that small changes could make a difference - a corner widened here, for example, a kerb moved there, a rethinking of the harbour-front chicane, perhaps - but that the Automobile Club de Monaco is reluctant to entertain the idea.

 

And that bleeds into the final issue - what is perceived by many inside the sport as the way the frustrating place is run, on a number of different levels, questionable choices on a number of aspects of the weekend, and an unwillingness to accept outside ideas.

 

We might've had a thread about this before, but feel free to critique this crazy notion and suggest better corner designs below. Or indeed rant about the presumption of F1's civilizing mission to the benighted folk of Monte-Carlo, or indeed anything else you can think of that's on-topic.



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#2 ensign14

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:14

There was overtaking at Monaco when there were no front wings.  Just sayin'.



#3 Risil

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:20

There was overtaking at Monaco when there were no front wings. Just sayin'.


Did you not see the video from the build-up thread of when Montoya tried that in F3000???

#4 Scotracer

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:22

These cars are just too fast for much overtaking here. Any small mistake that on a big circuit would allow for a delta at the end of the straight, these monsters are just getting through the straights so fast they can catch and get far enough alongside.

But even watching the Formula Regional race yesterday it was very processional. So that's not the only reason. It appeared to be that the drivers, when they get really close, they can't spot their apexes. So they are forced back to around 0.5 seconds at closest. So lunges are required. Which only ends in disaster.

#5 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:25

Yay, more coockie cutter advertising trackside. And F1 wonders why every new track looks the same.

Edited by SenorSjon, 29 May 2022 - 10:25.


#6 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:25

I do note that the long-mooted extra loop around the round about to replace the traditional right hander of Portier is now a lot more possible.

 

Thanks to the land reclamation project, that roundabout is now three lanes wide as opposed to two. 

 

Monaco-2006.jpg

Monaco-2022.jpg


Edited by Ben1445, 29 May 2022 - 10:27.


#7 r4mses

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:25

Those Liberty guys just don't undertand F1 - or don't care. ****s sake. Monaco is Monaco. You'll never have a Indy like race there. And we already got enough GP you can hardly distinguish since there're the same freakin' ads all over the place. Take your fingers of Monaco - take it or leave it.



#8 Goron3

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:28

Those Liberty guys just don't undertand F1 - or don't care. ****s sake. Monaco is Monaco. You'll never have a Indy like race there. And we already got enough GP you can hardly distinguish since there're the same freakin' ads all over the place. Take your fingers of Monaco - take it or leave it.


No one mentioned Indy.

#9 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:28

Those Liberty guys just don't undertand F1 - or don't care. ****s sake. Monaco is Monaco. You'll never have a Indy like race there. And we already got enough GP you can hardly distinguish since there're the same freakin' ads all over the place. Take your fingers of Monaco - take it or leave it.

You know, Liberty are not after keeping or wanting us anymore… …we are probably at the end of the age range they want…

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 29 May 2022 - 10:29.


#10 P123

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:30

Did you not see the video from the build-up thread of when Montoya tried that in F3000???

 

In fairness he did have a puncture too. :)



#11 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:32

Formula E has managed to pull off enjoyable races now it's finally running the full circuit.

 

I do think the problem is a mismatch in the circuit and the car designs/race formats which would allow for good racing. 

 

I also don't think there's enough you can do to make the track more suitable. 


Edited by Ben1445, 29 May 2022 - 10:33.


#12 SCUDmissile

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:33

I was laughing how every the me they showed the Rolex billboard at the start finish straight.

They showed the shot with Tag Heuer straight after. Lol

Edited by SCUDmissile, 29 May 2022 - 10:33.


#13 Brian60

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:36

Im watching the Porche Supercup race. If you can't get overtaking with 'saloon cars' you are never going to get overtaking with current F1 cars.



#14 TheFish

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:38

Those Liberty guys just don't undertand F1 - or don't care. ****s sake. Monaco is Monaco. You'll never have a Indy like race there. And we already got enough GP you can hardly distinguish since there're the same freakin' ads all over the place. Take your fingers of Monaco - take it or leave it.

I vote leave it. A circuit that caters purely to the rich and famous and provides the worst racing of the year.



#15 Scotracer

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:42

Formula E has managed to pull off enjoyable races now it's finally running the full circuit.

I do think the problem is a mismatch in the circuit and the car designs/race formats which would allow for good racing.

I also don't think there's enough you can do to make the track more suitable.


The Formula E passes are almost all down to the lack of ability to run WOT all the way to the braking zone. The chaser holds full power that bit longer, gets passed them holds up best they can to recover the lost energy.

#16 Scotracer

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:43

Im watching the Porche Supercup race. If you can't get overtaking with 'saloon cars' you are never going to get overtaking with current F1 cars.


Yep just saw that Heinrich could not pass even when getting as close 0.275s.

#17 ANF

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:44

And that bleeds into the final issue - what is perceived by many inside the sport as the way the frustrating place is run, on a number of different levels

I believe the podium finishers in this morning Formula Regional race were instructed that the champagne must be sprayed towards the grid: https://youtu.be/34g0_4XzzuQ?t=3008



#18 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:46

The Formula E passes are almost all down to the lack of ability to run WOT all the way to the braking zone. The chaser holds full power that bit longer, gets passed them holds up best they can to recover the lost energy.

Precisely what I mean about the race formats.

 

Formula E has a deliberate format which allows for a race with overtaking at Monaco.

 

Therefore the problem is not entirely down to the circuit. 



#19 BoDarvelle

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:48

Put sprinklers all around the track with randomly spaced areas covered in paint.



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#20 pRy

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:48

The track has changed a number of times over the decades so I don't see any issue with minor tweaks here and there to encourage passing. And if Monaco needs to give up some of the historical control it's had over TV etc, then so be it. I can't see Prince Albert having a huge issue with that. He strikes me as a guy willing to move with the times. I saw a documentary about how Monaco is trying to evolve a couple years ago so I know it's something they take seriously.
 
My only suggestion, night race please. Monaco, at night, would be incredible on so many levels.

#21 BRG

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:49

Formula E has managed to pull off enjoyable races now it's finally running the full circuit.

 

I do think the problem is a mismatch in the circuit and the car designs/race formats which would allow for good racing. 

 

I also don't think there's enough you can do to make the track more suitable. 

We established in the FE thread that those cars were over 11 secs slower than F3 so that may be why they can race but faster series can't.

 

Agree there is precious little they can do to improve the track though.

 

I vote leave it. A circuit that caters purely to the rich and famous and provides the worst racing of the year.

Seconded.  And I have been saying that for many years.  



#22 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:49

The track has changed a number of times over the decades so I don't see any issue with minor tweaks here and there to encourage passing. And if Monaco needs to give up some of the historical control it's had over TV etc, then so be it. I can't see Prince Albert having a huge issue with that. He strikes me as a guy willing to move with the times. I saw a documentary about how Monaco is trying to evolve a couple years ago so I know it's something they take seriously.

My only suggestion, night race please. Monaco, at night, would be incredible on so many levels.


Nah we have enough night races.

#23 ANF

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:50

I do note that the long-mooted extra loop around the round about to replace the traditional right hander of Portier is now a lot more possible.
 
Thanks to the land reclamation project, that roundabout is now three lanes wide as opposed to two. 
 
Monaco-2006.jpg
Monaco-2022.jpg

Interesting. I guess acceleration would be trickier as it wouldn't be in a straight line. But then there's the right-hander in the tunnel...



#24 ANF

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:52

The Formula E passes are almost all down to the lack of ability to run WOT all the way to the braking zone. The chaser holds full power that bit longer, gets passed them holds up best they can to recover the lost energy.

And most Formula E passes are down to drivers being in "attack mode" and using "fan boost", aren't they?

#25 smitten

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:55

This forum's favourite F1 journalist Andrew Benson has managed another scoop, this time putting loads of detail on what exactly F1/Liberty want from the Automobile Club de Monaco in exchange for more delicious, yacht-heavy F1 races. Beyond the sanctioning fee and relatively low max attendance, the main issues are three: control of the (bad) TV broadcast, control of trackside advertising (no more billboards for competitors to F1's Rolex), and most interestingly for us, changes (minor obviously) to the circuit layout.

 

 

We might've had a thread about this before, but feel free to critique this crazy notion and suggest better corner designs below. Or indeed rant about the presumption of F1's civilizing mission to the benighted folk of Monte-Carlo, or indeed anything else you can think of that's on-topic.

Monaco (with a couple of other circuits like Silverstone and Monza) always feels like a tangible link to the past for me.  Liberty have been steadily changing F1, and not always for the better.  I understand their perspective: maximise shareholder value.  Maybe I'm just an old romantic with rose-tinted glasses, and although the cars outgrew the circuit many years ago, the Monaco weekend would be missed by me, if lost, and changing classic corners always hurts me somewhere inside.

 

I hope they don't change a thing, but life moves on an we may lose the weekend entirely in favour of those willing to pay the Liberty fees and have firework displays.



#26 timmy bolt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:57

Monaco f1 is predominantly a rich people playground. Some people call it glamour but really its just an abundance of wealth getting together and having a knees up and all us mere mortals trying to pretend we're part of it.

Since other street circuits have come onto the grid and have actually produced decent racing and interesting and unique circuit designs to weave around existing streets, Monaco just feels antiquated now made for a time when F1 was about rich playboys.

It also doesn't have the argument about being a drivers circuit. Sure mistakes are brutal but unlike back in the day where the driver really could make a meaningful difference outside of a few tenths, the sport has changed and the quality so high that most drivers are capable of extracting a very decent if not spectacular lap time consistently.

I dont hate it, I'm just not that bothered if it goes.

#27 GiorgioF1

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 10:59

You want more opportunities for overtakes at Monaco? Then make the rules with more nimble cars in mind like for expample in 2008 and not the current heavy boats.



#28 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:00

We established in the FE thread that those cars were over 11 secs slower than F3 so that may be why they can race but faster series can't.

Think you're thinking of F2.
 
The F3 Regional European pole times were into the 1:29s with most somewhere sightly north of 1:30, same as FE where Mitch Evans took pole with 1:29.839. 

 

Most laps in the ePrix were 1:33-1:36, with a fastest lap of 1:32.707. Fastest individual laps by driver in the FREC ranged from the mid 1:30s to the low 1:33s. 


Edited by Ben1445, 29 May 2022 - 11:00.


#29 timmy bolt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:02

Monaco (with a couple of other circuits like Silverstone and Monza) always feels like a tangible link to the past for me. Liberty have been steadily changing F1, and not always for the better. I understand their perspective: maximise shareholder value. Maybe I'm just an old romantic with rose-tinted glasses, and although the cars outgrew the circuit many years ago, the Monaco weekend would be missed by me, if lost, and changing classic corners always hurts me somewhere inside.

I hope they don't change a thing, but life moves on an we may lose the weekend entirely in favour of those willing to pay the Liberty fees and have firework displays.


I used to go into a Monaco f1 weekend with this thought process but then come out of it thinking I wasted my afternoon.

These days although I still watch it just because, ya know, its f1, I don't have high hopes.

The worse bit for me is if something does happen (SC etc) it just feels like a lottery these days. Sure that's like most races but here once the lottery results are in, nothing else really happens again.

#30 ckolcz

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:03

Monaco f1 is predominantly a rich people playground. Some people call it glamour but really its just an abundance of wealth getting together and having a knees up and all us mere mortals trying to pretend we're part of it.

Since other street circuits have come onto the grid and have actually produced decent racing and interesting and unique circuit designs to weave around existing streets, Monaco just feels antiquated now made for a time when F1 was about rich playboys.

It also doesn't have the argument about being a drivers circuit. Sure mistakes are brutal but unlike back in the day where the driver really could make a meaningful difference outside of a few tenths, the sport has changed and the quality so high that most drivers are capable of extracting a very decent if not spectacular lap time consistently.

I dont hate it, I'm just not that bothered if it goes.

Exactly that. I'd rather bring Hockenheim back.

#31 timmy bolt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:04

You want more opportunities for overtakes at Monaco? Then make the rules with more nimble cars in mind like for expample in 2008 and not the current heavy boats.


You wouldn't make a whole set of regs to deal with one track though. Yes these cars are like boats but there is a reason behind it and so far this year it appears to be overall for the better.

#32 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:05

I do note that the long-mooted extra loop around the round about to replace the traditional right hander of Portier is now a lot more possible.

Thanks to the land reclamation project, that roundabout is now three lanes wide as opposed to two.

Monaco-2006.jpg
Monaco-2022.jpg


I’m not convinced that that extension is in any way long enough to make a tangible difference to overtaking into the chicane after the tunnel.

#33 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:08

And most Formula E passes are down to drivers being in "attack mode" and using "fan boost", aren't they?

It's a mix. You have the deliberate choice of races having inherent energy saving instead of a flat sprint, which allows more opportunity to go deeper on one lap to make a pass/defend but at the expense of using more energy than those around you. Plus you have the attack mode which is comparable to having a pit stop strategy element yielding a temporary advantage.

 

There's little material difference between a pass in Attack Mode and a pass using DRS or on softer tyres. They're all deliberate decisions by the the championships to facilitate overtaking. 

 

(fan boost does so little it has barely any impact on the races) 


Edited by Ben1445, 29 May 2022 - 11:15.


#34 stewie

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:12

I’m not convinced that that extension is in any way long enough to make a tangible difference to overtaking into the chicane after the tunnel.

Wouldn't it also make them a bit faster into the chicane? Thus causing another issue.



#35 ensign14

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:12

These cars are just too fast for much overtaking here.

 

They're also too big.  It's getting to the point that they'll have to be hinged to get around the hairpin.
 



#36 Celloman

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:21

As mentioned, there has already been a number of changes to Monaco over the years, so it sounds like laziness to be reluctant to small changes to even slightly improve the chance of overtaking. Sector one has remained relatively unchanged apart from the pit exit and curb in turn one, but the whole swimming pool section is very different than what it used to be.



#37 Francesc

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:24

Yay, more coockie cutter advertising trackside. And F1 wonders why every new track looks the same.


I miss the days when every gp got different advertising. Like Japanese Gp with Fuji Tv, Spanish Gp with Movistar, Malaysian Gp with Petronas, Brasilian Gp with Petrobras, etc

Now all the races are sponsored by either Rolex, Aramco, Ubs or Pirelli.

#38 RA2

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:30

I’m not convinced that that extension is in any way long enough to make a tangible difference to overtaking into the chicane after the tunnel.


I think the round about and moving the chicane another 150 m further down the road will help to some degree.

#39 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:32

So, in a nutshell:

 

"We want to put up our own advertising and collect the revenue" and

"We want control of the TV direction so that we can ensure that our advertising is prominent in the broadcast pictures"



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#40 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:35

Wouldn't it also make them a bit faster into the chicane? Thus causing another issue.


I don’t think even that would be tangibly different. Probably not too big compared to the variance we’ve since over the past 10, even 20 years.

#41 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:35

Monaco is what it is. Circuits are so samey-samey these days that it’s great to have an outlier. Places like the old Hockenheim. We need tracks that are a bit strange more than ever with the expanding calendar as it is.

 

If we dropped Monaco, there would be plenty of people in 20 years time saying ‘I wish we could have seen these cars around Monaco’…for certain.

 

Be careful what you wish for.



#42 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 11:35

I think the round about and moving the chicane another 150 m further down the road will help to some degree.

I expect the only realistic way to do that would be remove the line of trees almost right up to where the Avenue J.F. Kennedy starts to climb back up towards St Devote. 

 

I can understand if Monaco wouldn't want to do that, since the rest of the year when it's not being a race track it has to be a nice place to live. 


Edited by Ben1445, 29 May 2022 - 11:43.


#43 noikeee

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 12:02

I'm all up for extending the bit before the tunnel. If it creates a race in which there's 2 or 3 passes per race instead of 0, then it makes it a little more interesting and doesn't really change the character of the race.

#44 William Hunt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 13:33

There was overtaking at Monaco when there were no front wings.  Just sayin'.

 

Just let them drive in Monaco without any wings, like in the '60s (well pré '68) :)

 

And it's not a 'scoop' at all, this story returns every year.


Edited by William Hunt, 29 May 2022 - 13:34.


#45 William Hunt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 13:37

I vote leave it. A circuit that caters purely to the rich and famous and provides the worst racing of the year.

 

What do you think the audience in Abu Dhabi, Las Vegas and Miami is aimed at? (probably Singapore as well)


Edited by William Hunt, 29 May 2022 - 13:37.


#46 Albertino

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 13:38

Edit: wrong thread!


Edited by Albertino, 29 May 2022 - 13:46.


#47 68targa

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 13:49

I think the round about and moving the chicane another 150 m further down the road will help to some degree.

Why not run anti-clockwise - do away with the chicane and you  get a nice flat out blast straight up to the 'new' Portier' roundabout. Should encourage overtaking. ?


Edited by 68targa, 29 May 2022 - 13:49.


#48 William Hunt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 13:56

There used to be a plan, back in 2011 already, to build a new piece of land in the harbour that would also be used as an extension of the race track but haven't heard in a long time about those plans.
RGou4yF.jpg


Edited by William Hunt, 29 May 2022 - 13:57.


#49 Boing Ball

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 17:20

You want more opportunities for overtakes at Monaco? Then make the rules with more nimble cars in mind like for expample in 2008 and not the current heavy boats.

Sigh. Monaco 2001 wants small and nimble Coulthard and Bernoldi back.



#50 AlexPrime

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 17:28

I am a die hard Monaco fan and hope it will stay forever.