244 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

I like it. Brings a touch of Birmingham Superprix to the Riviera.

[Beri]

So that would bring the cars at higher speeds into the tunnel, even with a chicane. That would be no wise idea in my book, unless they move the nouvelle chicane a bit forward. In that way the cars wont be as unsettled under braking on the hill down when they exit the tunnel.

[BRG]

I like it. Brings a touch of Birmingham Superprix to the Riviera.

It says something about the Bastardisation of Monaco that you can suggest a touch of Birmingham as an improvement!! 

and the scenery around Spa now is pretty generic and sanitized compared to what it used to look like 

Yeah, all those trees are pretty generic!   

 

But I can't think of any other track looks very much like Spa?  

[Nemo1965]

So that would bring the cars at higher speeds into the tunnel, even with a chicane. That would be no wise idea in my book, unless they move the nouvelle chicane a bit forward. In that way the cars wont be as unsettled under braking on the hill down when they exit the tunnel.

 

Do my eyes deceive me or is there a chicane in front of the tunnel? If not, that would be good solution. 

[Beri]

Do my eyes deceive me or is there a chicane in front of the tunnel? If not, that would be good solution.

 

 

 

There is. But likely the cars will be quicker out of the chicane compared to when they are taking the turn at Portier like the situation is now. Ofcourse all depends on how such a chicane is profiled. But my point was that the speed in the tunnel should not be higher compared to what it is now. If you want overtaking done at the Nouvelle Chicane, then the rundown from the tunnel towards the chicane should be increased to aid this. And this could be done now even without any extension to the track. The only problem then is that Tabac will not be as special as it is now and speeds will likely be lower in that corner. Perhaps even the Piscine section will be influenced due to this. So all in all it is a pretty substantial change to make if you want to alter Monaco in the way it is projected in that picture.

 

 

It says something about the Bastardisation of Monaco that you can suggest a touch of Birmingham as an improvement!! 

Yeah, all those trees are pretty generic!   

 

But I can't think of any other track looks very much like Spa?

 

 

What trees? That treeline that is cut back 10 to 20 meters from the guardrails nowadays? Spa isnt as much in the forest anymore as it used to be 

[FirstnameLastname]

Bernoldi & Alonso Bus Tours are heavily against any track revisions

[BRG]

What trees? That treeline that is cut back 10 to 20 meters from the guardrails nowadays? Spa isnt as much in the forest anymore as it used to be 

 

I agree they have been cut back but it is still hard to find a wider angle view of Spa that isn't full of trees.

[boomn]

If they ever built a track extension, could they leave room in that area for the temporary pitlane?  That would free up the space to drive on the other side of the swimming pool again and have a straight run from Tabac to a more straightforward braking zone for a simple hairpin.  And that old straight is wider than current start-finish straight, so more room to get alongside.  Would that potentially be enough to create another possible overtaking spot?  The big downside of course would be needing to move the start/finish line too

[BoDarvelle]

So that would bring the cars at higher speeds into the tunnel, even with a chicane. That would be no wise idea in my book, unless they move the nouvelle chicane a bit forward. In that way the cars wont be as unsettled under braking on the hill down when they exit the tunnel.

 

Unsettled under braking sounds like a good thing for passing.

[William Hunt]

There are tracks which are worse on

current calendar. And racing there isn’t specifically more exciting:

 

- spain

 

Maybe on tv but have you actually been to the Spanish GP as a spectator? I have and I think it's great for spectators: several nice viewing points + a stadium section. Also: it's much more steep (hilly) when you walk around there, tv doesn't show the track elevation at all or hardly. It's also a more technical track for the drivers than one would think and that is partly because of the elevation differences and there's  some tricky corners there (as Sainz showed with his driver error this year).

It's also very easy to reach, by  train from Barcelona to Montmelo it's just a 15 minutes train ride. Will certainly visit that track again in the future as I've done in the past. Barcelona is also so easy to reach by air plane. It's one of the most accessable races imho (unlike Zandvoort and in Spa you can spend a lot of time in traffic after the race).

So no please keep it on the calendar, one of my favourite places to visit and it's a great combo with visiting the city of Barcelona. And if they do remove it than please keep the winter testing there at least.

 

Really liked the Montmelo track, much more as the Nürburgring F1 track which I also visited (adore the environment of the Nurbürgring though but the track doesn't have as many great viewing points as other circuits imho). Monaco is also great to visit by the way: watching F1 in the middle of a city is special. And well: Francorschamps, been there many many times, is always special but it doesn't have the accomodation of other tracks: it's F1 in the nature really but that is very charming.

Unique tracks like Monaco, Spa, Monza, Montréal, Suzuka, Sao Paulo should always stay on the calendar. I like Baku quite a lot too.

 

As a tv viewer yeah maybe I want another track instead of Montmelo it but as a spectator I want it to stay on the calendar. Hungary is, from what I've heard, really good for spectators but haven't been there yet. Red Bull Ring also has an excellent rep. for spectators.

Edited by William Hunt, 04 June 2022 - 02:59.

[DinocoBlue]

FWIW this just appeared in my Youtube suggestions.

 

Instead of taking the Avenue Monte-Carlo to Casino Sq., it keeps left onto Avenue Princess Alice before rejoining the current track near Mirabeau.

 

The Portier Cove roundabout section, previously suggested here is also there.

 

https://youtu.be/YyB4rVFr5Ys

 

EDIT: Still no idea how to embed a YT video.

Edited by DinocoBlue, 05 June 2022 - 08:38.

[PayasYouRace]

That video shows quite nicely how little difference the Portier roundabout would make.

[absinthedude]

The main reason why the Spanish GP tends to be boring is that it's the sole/main venue for pre season testing these days and every team has all the data they could possibly ever want. The circuit itself is decent. And having been there too, I concur that it's got great transport links and spectator facilities.

[chdphd]

https://youtu.be/YyB4rVFr5Ys

 

EDIT: Still no idea how to embed a YT video.

 

Paste in the long version of the URL with the full domain, not the youtu.be version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyB4rVFr5Ys&ab_channel=Mitsos

Edited by chdphd, 05 June 2022 - 21:58.

[Pascal]

Instead of taking the Avenue Monte-Carlo to Casino Sq., it keeps left onto Avenue Princess Alice before rejoining the current track near Mirabeau.

 

I can already tell you that such a layout would be a non-starter. Not because it would be unfeasible, but simply because it would create way too much disruption for the Principality.

 

Taking a left turn before Massenet and going up Avenue Princesse Alice would mean that you would go on up to a right turn on Avenue de la Costa, still going straight on a portion of Boulevard des Moulins, before turning right on Avenue de la Madone bringing you back to the original layout on Avenue des Spélugues going downhill on the left. It's precisely these last two streets that are a problem. 

 

Boulevard des Moulins is the main street leading to Monaco's Eastern border with the city of Roquebrune Cap-Martin, and traffic travelling westward would take it (and Avenue Saint-Laurent for the brief portion that is one-way) to then go up Avenue Princesse Charlotte towards Monaco's Western boundary. The problem is that these two streets meet in the same intersection that splits into Avenue de la Madone.

 

 

The end result is cutting the Principality in two, which would simply be unacceptable for the local authorities. The F1 race might be a great source of revenue, but it must not disrupt the rest of the economy too much, and such a paralysis would create tons of problems.

 

Besides, bypassing the Casino would certainly not be too popular with the SBM (Société des Bains de Mer) which has a monopoly on gambling and benefits greatly from this international exposure. Leaving the Casino aside to go through less iconic streets would not look any better on TV screens anyway.

 

As for the Portier, the roundabout option strikes me as way too narrow in its initial phase. From a safety standpoint, that bit would be a nightmare for the marshals.

[Radoye]

If we put aside the practicality issues outlined in the previous post, that "new" layout looks interesting but i don't think it would bring any improvement to the quality of racing we see in Monaco. So it's kinda pointless.

[FirstnameLastname]

Paste in the long version of the URL with the full domain, not the youtu.be version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyB4rVFr5Ys&ab_channel=Mitsos

https://www.youtube...._channel=Mitsos

Or just delete the ‘s’ from https and wrap in [youtube] tags

[Risil]

I wonder if you could drop Massenet and take the earlier left turn up Av Princess Alice, then a quick 90-degree right onto the Av des Beaux Arts. This would preserve the route past the casino (just) but give you a slightly longer run into Mirabeau. Which, if you could reprofile it slightly...

 

I also think there must be a better way to do the chicane.

 

I'd love to know what the folks at F1 who think about reworking tracks to improve overtaking would like to do.

[Pascal]

Avenue des Beaux Arts is too narrow.

 

[pdac]

Avenue des Beaux Arts is too narrow.

 

 

It amazes me how many people think they have come up with a great idea that nobody has thought about. If any options existed, I think the FIA would be in there like a shot. The Monaco course has remained basically the same for years because there are no alternatives (because someone has already thought of it and it's already been rejected).

[Beri]

It amazes me how many people think they have come up with a great idea that nobody has thought about. If any options existed, I think the FIA would be in there like a shot. The Monaco course has remained basically the same for years because there are no alternatives (because someone has already thought of it and it's already been rejected).

 

There are alternatives. Named here as well. There are other Boulevards that are capable of being raced on. Yet the ACM (Automobile Club de Monaco) is reluctant to alter the track because of its heritage and the possible gridlock it would cause if more streets were added to the track.

But very much are there possibilities to lengthen the track. Like an extension along the quay at Rascasse which leads over the quay and then back via the Avenue de la Quarantaine. Ofcourse alterations need to be made. It is very much possible since the existing roads are wide enough and many of the buildings in place are temporary ones (Google Streetview doesnt tell the whole story). But would it add something more to the track? I dont think it will. Certainly Anthony Noghes will have to be butchered because there is no run off there to cope with the cars driving towards it at higher speeds.

Then there is the proposal of usage of the Rue de Grimaldi via Anthony Noghes and subsequently ditching the current main straight. Which could happen. But yet again, alterations will have to be made. And then the question would be, where to put the pitlane? 

But the proposal of cutting Casino Square and use the Avenue Princesse Alice is just plain stupid. It would just add more twistyness to the track and will certainly add no overtaking spots. At least we saw some overtaking at Mirabeau this year. So scrapping a genuine overtaking spot at Monaco in favor of none, is just unthinkable.

And last, as Ive stated before, the usage of the "Portier roundabout" would mean cars do enter the tunnel at higher speeds. I dont know how that will work out. But it could help if the Nouvelle Chicane is moved up ahead to aid in genuine overtaking possibilities if this is chosen.

[Beri]

Transportation on and off the track of spectators was a major issue this year. Things could be a lot better. But then again, I have been at Spa far too many times to be allowed to complain on such subjects. 

[KinkyMasta]

Transportation on and off the track of spectators was a major issue this year. Things could be a lot better. But then again, I have been at Spa far too many times to be allowed to complain on such subjects. 

 

Yes. I wasn't at the race, but I've read in local newspapers that there were some roadworks nearby that exaggerated the issue.

 

I also think that the organizers didn't react fast enough to the heatwave and the sheer amount of fans.

 

The circuit never had those numbers since the Alonsomania years (And remember, there was no public in 2020 & 2021).

[Blackjack1967]

I’ve been watching Formula One for thirty-odd years and in all that time people have been saying the cars had outgrown Monaco and there shouldn’t be a race there.

 

Those people were wrong then and are wrong now.

 

It’s great to have such a different challenge on the calendar.

 

 

A challenge it is. Yet people always rant on having cars to "race" eachother. But racing is more than cars passing one another. It is seeing drivers having to perform on the ragged edge to either attempt an overtake or to stay in front. It is having teams alter tactics to get in front. It is getting to see cars and drivers do what no one even think would be mentally sane. And Monaco delivers on all those points.

 

And even if there is a situation like the Coulthard/Bernoldi, or recent Hamilton/Alonso, it still is something that is typically Monaco. And I love it.

 

People who moan about Monaco, should just skip the race already and look forward to the race at Paul Ricard.

Amen. In ten years, the same people that today want to remove it from the calendar will complain from  the lack of charismatic tracks because 2/3 of the championship will be a Valencia/Miami/Las Vegas/Jeddah/Singapore circuit type

 

Monaco apart, Adelaide and Baku are the only urban tracks i liked in the last 30 years.

[William Hunt]

Well I do find Jeddah unique and I think it's spectacular (bit also a bit dangerous). Valencia was terrible and bland, Miami feels artificial (so does Yas Marina). Singapore also feels unique because it's a night race. I won't judge the Las Vegas track before they've raced on it.

 

I love Baku too, loved Adelaïde as well. I was probably the only one who loved Phoenix (F1 ran twice on it) but that was not because of the track layout but because it always produced very surprising results (in particular in qualy).

 

But you're right that we should cherish circuits with a unique feel and Monaco certainly is unique, I personally have always loved it and still do.

[pdac]

There are alternatives. Named here as well. There are other Boulevards that are capable of being raced on. Yet the ACM (Automobile Club de Monaco) is reluctant to alter the track because of its heritage and the possible gridlock it would cause if more streets were added to the track.

But very much are there possibilities to lengthen the track. Like an extension along the quay at Rascasse which leads over the quay and then back via the Avenue de la Quarantaine. Ofcourse alterations need to be made. It is very much possible since the existing roads are wide enough and many of the buildings in place are temporary ones (Google Streetview doesnt tell the whole story). But would it add something more to the track? I dont think it will. Certainly Anthony Noghes will have to be butchered because there is no run off there to cope with the cars driving towards it at higher speeds.

Then there is the proposal of usage of the Rue de Grimaldi via Anthony Noghes and subsequently ditching the current main straight. Which could happen. But yet again, alterations will have to be made. And then the question would be, where to put the pitlane? 

But the proposal of cutting Casino Square and use the Avenue Princesse Alice is just plain stupid. It would just add more twistyness to the track and will certainly add no overtaking spots. At least we saw some overtaking at Mirabeau this year. So scrapping a genuine overtaking spot at Monaco in favor of none, is just unthinkable.

And last, as Ive stated before, the usage of the "Portier roundabout" would mean cars do enter the tunnel at higher speeds. I dont know how that will work out. But it could help if the Nouvelle Chicane is moved up ahead to aid in genuine overtaking possibilities if this is chosen.

 

My point was that there are no alternatives that haven't been thought of and rejected already. As you point out, it's not just about those alternatives being acceptable to race on, they need to be acceptable to Monaco too.

[Pascal]

There are alternatives. Named here as well. There are other Boulevards that are capable of being raced on. Yet the ACM (Automobile Club de Monaco) is reluctant to alter the track because of its heritage and the possible gridlock it would cause if more streets were added to the track.

The ACM doesn't decide which roads can be allocated to the track. The Monégasque government does. And that's really the key part to understand: Monaco is a micro-nation that exists well beyond the few days of racing that animate some of its streets 3 weekends a year (Grand-Prix, E-Prix, and historic Grand-Prix). Formula 1 is a big thing obviously, but the Principality hardly depends on that event alone for its revenues. In fact, the near-complete paralysis that the race creates brings other part of the economy to a standstill. So don't think for a second that the Grand-Prix can preempt any other consideration, because it simply can't. The ACM does a wonderful job every year, but it operates within very narrow constraints, many of which it has no direct control over.

 

But very much are there possibilities to lengthen the track. Like an extension along the quay at Rascasse which leads over the quay and then back via the Avenue de la Quarantaine. Ofcourse alterations need to be made. It is very much possible since the existing roads are wide enough and many of the buildings in place are temporary ones (Google Streetview doesnt tell the whole story).

I saw this one being discussed a few times in the past, and it's simply nonsensical in my opinion. Quai Antoine 1er houses a great deal of the Paddock, so where would you put it instead? Unless that's what you meant by "temporary buildings"! Also, the only way to reach Avenue de la quarantaine would be through the narrow tunnel that exists within the pier structure that got added to the harbour 20 years ago. Way too dangerous for a Formula 1 car.

 

But would it add something more to the track? I dont think it will. Certainly Anthony Noghes will have to be butchered because there is no run off there to cope with the cars driving towards it at higher speeds.

Anthony Noghes is already a compromised bend compared to the original "Gazomètres" it replaced. The presence of the tunnel exit meant that F1 cars had a lot less room, and whatever speed they come in, they will still have to brake hard to make it.

 

Then there is the proposal of usage of the Rue de Grimaldi via Anthony Noghes and subsequently ditching the current main straight. Which could happen. But yet again, alterations will have to be made. And then the question would be, where to put the pitlane?

Non-starter. Rue Grimaldi is a lot narrower than the current straight, and to reach it cars would have to drive up to Place d'Armes, which would create a mess like you wouldn't believe. So you'll end up with a less interesting and more dangerous track, endless disruptions for all inhabitants of the Condamine quarter(a.k.a. the harbour), and as you point out yourself no pit lane. Smashing!

 

But the proposal of cutting Casino Square and use the Avenue Princesse Alice is just plain stupid. It would just add more twistyness to the track and will certainly add no overtaking spots. At least we saw some overtaking at Mirabeau this year. So scrapping a genuine overtaking spot at Monaco in favor of none, is just unthinkable.
And last, as Ive stated before, the usage of the "Portier roundabout" would mean cars do enter the tunnel at higher speeds. I dont know how that will work out. But it could help if the Nouvelle Chicane is moved up ahead to aid in genuine overtaking possibilities if this is chosen.

We definitely agree on this part, apart from moving the chicane as I can't see how that would be feasible.

[PayasYouRace]

I do think the best way to add a better overtaking spot is to move the chicane towards Tabac. You'd have to find a new place for the trees along the central reservation, and probably make a little extension into the harbour. But you'd get a slightly longer run into the chicane, potentially a wider track on entry to the chicane, and if you had the braking zone entirely on the flat then you've got the opportunity for making moves. The current braking zone means it's extremely risky to try a move over that crest.

 

I'm thinking something like this:

 

 

Are the trees in planters or are they in the ground? I'd imagine you could move them more easily to the harbourside before this new chicane if the former.

 

My other thought is that the Swimming Pool-Rascasse section has enough harbourside area to be a bit creative with. You could remove the second part of the swimming pool chicane, and have the track run further towards a chicane just before the Rascasse, which could potentially add another overtaking opportunity. There's enough room to play with how the grandstands are located.

 

 

Those are about the only two spots on the current circuit where there's enough space to do something interesting. Using other roads is generally a non-starter because they're either too narrow, would only add further twists and turns, and add further disruption to the city.

[DinocoBlue]

^Not a bad shout, particulary removing piscine 2. However, would that make the approach to La Rasscasse too fast? Also where would that grandstand go? IIRC it also houses the comms boxes, so it'd have to be relocated rather than replaced.

(I like the suggestion though).

[PayasYouRace]

^Not a bad shout, particulary removing piscine 2. However, would that make the approach to La Rasscasse too fast? Also where would that grandstand go? IIRC it also houses the comms boxes, so it'd have to be relocated rather than replaced.

(I like the suggestion though).

 

Well I did suggest a chicane before Rascasse to counter the faster approach.

 

Stuff like commentary boxes and grandstands can much more easily be re-arranged.

[jpm2019]

Just add some extra land. They do it all the time in Monaco. 

[DinocoBlue]

Well I did suggest a chicane before Rascasse to counter the faster approach.

 

Stuff like commentary boxes and grandstands can much more easily be re-arranged.

Oops sorry I missed that.

 

As for the grandstand... another pontoon stand like they have opposite the swimming pool?

[LucaP]

Why did they change the Gazomet/Rascasse section in the seventies? New buildings?

It's amazing to think that ALL passing issues would be instantly solved if we could go back to the old configuration (straight from Tabac to the Gazometre hairpin)..

Edited by LucaP, 07 June 2022 - 21:12.

[PayasYouRace]

Why did they change the Gazomet/Rascasse section in the seventies? New buildings?

It's amazing to think that ALL passing issues would be instantly solved if we could go back to the old configuration (straight from Tabac to the Gazometre hairpin)..

 

Because they needed a proper pit lane.

 

Rather optimistic to think that still having the Gasworks hairpin would solve all the passing issues too.

[LucaP]

Because they needed a proper pit lane.

Rather optimistic to think that still having the Gasworks hairpin would solve all the passing issues too.

Ah silly me you are right about the pitlane.

Well, you'd have a 500 metres straight leading to a tight hairpin..if that doesn't favour passing, I don't know what it does.. :/

[Ben1445]

Are the trees in planters or are they in the ground? I'd imagine you could move them more easily to the harbourside before this new chicane if the former.

I believe they are permanent features

 

StreetView

Edited by Ben1445, 07 June 2022 - 21:52.

[Pascal]

Indeed they are, and the locals would probably scream bloody murder if they were removed just to reconfigure the Grand-Prix layout which, let's keep that in mind, only finds real use a few days a year.

 

If you want more passing in Monaco, we would need to go back to fully manual gearboxes, because it's often a missed gear change that gave an opponent an opportunity to pass before the advent of paddle-actuated shifters.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I think we just need to accept Monaco for what it is. It’s a track that will never produce fantastic racing unless there are unusual circumstances (this is why the FIA f**ked up massively delaying the start last week imho).

 

All of the layout changes proposed will do nothing in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that would remotely change things is by removing the Nouvelle chicane and that will never happen for obvious safety reasons.

 

Monaco is more of a challenge for the drivers and I think we take it for granted that they finish the race in one piece. That is the challenge. It’s nice to have a circuit that actually looks like they are driving around narrow streets rather than the abundance of these new ‘semi’ street circuits.

 

Variety is the spice of life.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Something I did hear that I found interesting was the suggestion to move Monaco towards the end of the season, where drivers would maybe be more willing to take risks as they aren’t thinking of the long game as much in terms of the season ahead.

 

Not sure if it would change anything in reality, but it was an interesting suggestion, I thought. Not sure what the weather in Monaco is like in say, November?

[TheFish]

Something I did hear that I found interesting was the suggestion to move Monaco towards the end of the season, where drivers would maybe be more willing to take risks as they aren’t thinking of the long game as much in terms of the season ahead.

 

Not sure if it would change anything in reality, but it was an interesting suggestion, I thought. Not sure what the weather in Monaco is like in say, November?

If you can't overtake a Red Bull with no ERS to win the race, then adding extra motivation is going to do nothing.

 

That was truly the nail in the coffin for me.

[Goron3]

My main issue with extending the straight after the tunnel is that it will reduce the speed into tabac and swimming pool, which frankly is my favourite part of the circuit.

I do wish there was a bit more transparency around what roads could be used in the future.

[pdac]

My main issue with extending the straight after the tunnel is that it will reduce the speed into tabac and swimming pool, which frankly is my favourite part of the circuit.

I do wish there was a bit more transparency around what roads could be used in the future.

 

Is it so difficult to understand that no other roads will be used in the future until they announce it to be so. That's perfectly transparent to me.

[BRG]

Is it so difficult to understand that no other roads will be used in the future until they announce it to be so. That's perfectly transparent to me.

And I think Pascal, as a Monegasque resident, has put that one to sleep absolutely.  Other than tinkering with corners,there will be no changes.  

 

Never mind the lack of racing, look at all those lovely yachts and all those celebrities not watching the action!

[Clatter]

Was it not nail-biting to watch Checo have to defend? One small mistake and Sainz would have been through. One small mistake from Sainz and Max would have been past him.

Like 1992, when Mansell had the clearly faster car and Senna was able to keep him behind?

Was there not tension? Was there not excitement?

Not a lot. There is always the chance of a mistake, but a driver ahead can drive well inside themselves, secure that there is no chance of actually being passed.

[PayasYouRace]

Remember that in 1992 there was the fresh memory of Mansell’s late race pass on Prost into the chicane in 1991. There would have been higher expectation that the pass on Senna could have happened.