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Time to expand the 107% rule?


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#1 mcjohnson

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 19:36

Today we saw Alonso driving intentionally slowly for a prolonged period of time, destroying the race of several competitors behind him. The nature of the Monaco circuit, being almost impossible to overtake, made this behaviour all the more destructive.

Should there be a rule whereby drivers not achieving a lap-time of 107% of the leaders lap time be black-and-white flagged (after an initial warning), and then potentially penalised?

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#2 RekF1

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 19:42

It shouldn't even need a rule. The way he was smiling today reminded me of the post Hungary qualifying smile. 100's of people working their arse off for this psycho to be the center of attention. Toxic man.

#3 Claudius

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 19:50

You have a valid point. This should be looked into.

#4 ensign14

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:02

There actually is a rule to black-flag slow drivers - Alesi at Indy comes to mind (not his fault, basically a foodmixer engine and Jean was basically stamp-collecting at that point). Alonso wasn’t dangerously slow. Blame a formula that prevents overtaking even when there is a 3s per lap difference.

#5 ClubmanGT

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:04

It shouldn't even need a rule. The way he was smiling today reminded me of the post Hungary qualifying smile. 100's of people working their arse off for this psycho to be the center of attention. Toxic man.

 

We've seen other drivers intentionally back team mates into chasing cars during a world title battle, this is pretty mild in comparison. 



#6 Scotracer

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:05

Lol. No. If he's 3 seconds off the pace, you should be able to pass him.

#7 absinthedude

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:06

Did I hear that he simply couldn't be bothered to drive faster? I thought he was preserving his tyres. 

 

If the former is true, that's pretty bad behaviour.



#8 timmy bolt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:06

The problem is the track and that it allows this. This rule would basically be for one race of the year because no other track has this issue.

#9 timmy bolt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:08

Would add it's pretty insulting to the fans what alonso did. Sure you don't go to Monaco for the overtaking but you expect world class sportspeople being paid millions (which ultimately comes from the fans indirectly) to perform to the best of their abilities.

Edited by timmy bolt, 29 May 2022 - 20:09.


#10 SophieB

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:12

It would just be embarrassing for the sport and admit that the track is impossible to overtake on if you had such a rule enshrined.



#11 Joseki

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:16

I suggest you to check his math because 107% of 1m17s is actually 1m22s so 5 seconds off the pace, not the 3 seconds off the pace times Alonso was doing. The very premise of your thread is not relevant to today's race.

 

Also going 5 seconds off the pace you definitely have a technical issue and you will retire in every single racetrack except maybe Monaco.


Edited by Joseki, 29 May 2022 - 20:17.


#12 Anderis

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:18

Also going 5 seconds off the pace you definitely have a technical issue and you will retire in every single racetrack except maybe Monaco.

A backmarker car on old tyres can easily be 5 seconds slower than a top car on fresh tyres.



#13 Joseki

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:19

A backmarker car on old tyres can easily be 5 seconds slower than a top car on fresh tyres.

Oh I'm sure, I meant in a more 1:1 situation.



#14 P123

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:27

Today we saw Alonso driving intentionally slowly for a prolonged period of time, destroying the race of several competitors behind him. The nature of the Monaco circuit, being almost impossible to overtake, made this behaviour all the more destructive.

Should there be a rule whereby drivers not achieving a lap-time of 107% of the leaders lap time be black-and-white flagged (after an initial warning), and then potentially penalised?

 

I don't think any races were destroyed.  It was only harming his own teammate who had a penalty.  It's what Monaco allows.  A driver would never get away with it at any other circuit because they would be passed eventually.



#15 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:34

The problem is the track and that it allows this. This rule would basically be for one race of the year because no other track has this issue.

I think every track allows this, if the driver in front desires to impede with no regard for their own pace.  I think Hamilton lost a lot more than 3 seconds when he was impeded by Perez for a lap at Abu Dhabi.  In every track there are sections where the car behind is just stuck if the car in front chooses to basically stop, it's just that at Monaco there is only one such section that is the length of the entire track.  I think Red Bull and Perez opened the door to some extremely brutal team impeding tactics last year, there is a lot to be gained if you're okay with sacrificing one driver's race, so I expect to see more such things going forward until there is a showdown.



#16 OneAndOnly

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:37

It would just be embarrassing for the sport and admit that the track is impossible to overtake on if you had such a rule enshrined.

Perez backed Hamilton more than 3 secs per lap in AD. But to make rule about driving too slow is nonsense. Overtake slow driver and that’s it.

#17 jpm2019

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:38

Just drive on tracks where you can overtake.



#18 Anuity

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:41

Blown out of proportion. Alonso was having his own race and looking after his tyres. It’s not like cars behind could have gained any additional places either.

 

not to mention that Lewis himself participated in something very similar and arguably ethically much worse in Abu Dhabi 2016.



#19 F1 Mike

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:41

Today we saw Alonso driving intentionally slowly for a prolonged period of time, destroying the race of several competitors behind him. The nature of the Monaco circuit, being almost impossible to overtake, made this behaviour all the more destructive.

Should there be a rule whereby drivers not achieving a lap-time of 107% of the leaders lap time be black-and-white flagged (after an initial warning), and then potentially penalised?


I like the idea of less nanny rules in F1 and less nanny suggestions in forums.

Can we have some rules to ensure this?

:)

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#20 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:43

Perez backed Hamilton more than 3 secs per lap in AD. But to make rule about driving too slow is nonsense. Overtake slow driver and that’s it.

I don't think it's nonsense.  Every time you have a sport with more than two competitors, you have to have a bunch of rules in place to avoid spoiler behavior.  It's considered a bad thing for a result between two top competitors to be decided by a third person who's not in the running himself, which is why there are lot of rules to prohibit many such behaviors, and also plenty more gentlemen agreements.  I don't think many people would've wanted to see Sainz back the field up by 10 seconds a lap to ensure Leclerc's victory today, even though he could do it, and it would be in Ferrari's best interest to run the race in such a way. 

 

It's just the nature of auto racing that the entire sport can become a farce in so many ways if some competitor is aiming to do something other than achieve the best result for themselves.  If a driver chooses to ignore their own results in order to make it their mission to hurt your results, there is really nothing that you can do as a target of that.



#21 William Hunt

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:45

No,this rule only applies to qualy and can be overruled. Also: what will you do when a driver drives extremely slow because of a technical issue but he can still reach the finish? Also: if adriver drives slow intentionally because he for example wants to save his tyres then he should imho be allowed to do so, it is up to the drivers behind him to try to pass him.


Edited by William Hunt, 29 May 2022 - 20:47.


#22 OneAndOnly

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:48

I don't think it's nonsense. Every time you have a sport with more than two competitors, you have to have a bunch of rules in place to avoid spoiler behavior. It's considered a bad thing for a result between two top competitors to be decided by a third person who's not in the running himself, which is why there are lot of rules to prohibit many such behaviors, and also plenty more gentlemen agreements. I don't think many people would've wanted to see Sainz back the field up by 10 seconds a lap to ensure Leclerc's victory today, even though he could do it, and it would be in Ferrari's best interest to run the race in such a way.

It's just the nature of auto racing that the entire sport can become a farce in so many ways if some competitor is aiming to do something other than achieve the best result for themselves. If a driver chooses to ignore their own results in order to make it their mission to hurt your results, there is really nothing that you can do as a target of that.

But what can you do about it? Alonso was trying to save his tires. It’s a legitimate strategy. The worst rules are the ones you can’t enforce.

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:52

 I think Red Bull and Perez opened the door to some extremely brutal team impeding tactics last year, 

Impeding tactics are there since time immemorial. Hamilton did more or less the same to Ocon later on. Would you punish Senna for what he did to Mansell in Monaco 1992? Bernoldi for blocking Coulthard in 2001? One might point at differences but it can be a case of arbitrary judgment, so at least added workload for the stewards. I don't know if that's what we want.



#24 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:55

But what can you do about it? Alonso was trying to save his tires. It’s a legitimate strategy. The worst rules are the ones you can’t enforce.

I agree that it's hard to enforce, but maybe we should start thinking about it.  Let's say that one team does decide as a tactic to back the field up whenever it judges it to be an advantage.  Let's even say that every weekend it switches the driver who would benefit from it.  Today Sergio will back to the field up to ensure that Max wins it with a 100 second gap to spare, next week Max will back the field up so that Sergio wins it with 100 second gap to spare.  Over the season both of them will on average get better results with this tactic than without.  It would be nothing illegal by the letter of the law, you just Abu Dhabi it and get everyone behind you into a DRS train.  Do you think that would be a good thing for the sport?



#25 OneAndOnly

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 20:58

I agree that it's hard to enforce, but maybe we should start thinking about it. Let's say that one team does decide as a tactic to back the field up whenever it judges it to be an advantage. Let's even say that every weekend it switches the driver who would benefit from it. Today Sergio will back to the field up to ensure that Max wins it with a 100 second gap to spare, next week Max will back the field up so that Sergio wins it with 100 second gap to spare. Over the season both of them will on average get better results with this tactic than without. It would be nothing illegal by the letter of the law, you just Abu Dhabi it and get everyone behind you into a DRS train. Do you think that would be a good thing for the sport?

It’s only possible if you have the fastest car in Q and whole season is driven in Monaco. If it was possible it would be exploited by now.

#26 pacificquay

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:00

He did nothing wrong.



#27 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:07

It’s only possible if you have the fastest car in Q and whole season is driven in Monaco. If it was possible it would be exploited by now.

Abu Dhabi is not in Monaco, and yet Perez was able to impede even more severely.  As I said earlier, every track has sections where the car behind can only go as fast as the car in front goes, with little say in the matter.



#28 noikeee

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:12

It was weird and funny and I don't know if he was saving tyres or trying to make a point or whatever, but was it dangerous? No. So there's the answer.

#29 scheivlak

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:28

Abu Dhabi is not in Monaco, and yet Perez was able to impede even more severely.  As I said earlier, every track has sections where the car behind can only go as fast as the car in front goes, with little say in the matter.

Geez. Perez was fighting brilliantly, even passing Lewis to take back his position which is the opposite of blocking/impeding.

 

There are people here who want blue flags abolished - I'm not one of them. But fighting for position shouldn't be allowed? (And yes I know what you mean - but that he's a teammate of a certain other driver is utterly irrelevant. Why should a teammate of a certain other driver not be allowed to do what other drivers are allowed to do?)



#30 Dolph

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:35

Geez. Perez was fighting brilliantly, even passing Lewis to take back his position which is the opposite of blocking/impeding.

 

There are people here who want blue flags abolished - I'm not one of them. But fighting for position shouldn't be allowed? (And yes I know what you mean - but that he's a teammate of a certain other driver is utterly irrelevant. Why should a teammate of a certain other driver not be allowed to do what other drivers are allowed to do?)

 

Perez was driving very slowly in the hotel section in Abu Dhabi. He was not fighting there. Just backing Hamilton up. Just like Hamilton backed Rosberg up in 2016.



#31 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:37

Monaco is about track position - ask Charles.

 

If you want to do well at Monaco:

1. Do your damndest to qualify well

2. Don't let your race strategists tell you to give up your track position


Edited by pdac, 29 May 2022 - 21:38.


#32 Gareth

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 21:45

Do we know why he was doing it yet? Was there a decent tactical reason to do it? Or was he just doing it because he could?

#33 Ali_G

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:01

It would just be embarrassing for the sport and admit that the track is impossible to overtake on if you had such a rule enshrined.

What is embarrassing is the suggestion in the OP.



#34 balaclava

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:06

Now preserving tyres is toxic? How ridiculous can people get? If LH was so much faster, he should have overtaken FA.

#35 mclarensmps

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:08

You couldn't do that on any other track except Monaco. He used it to his advantage. It's not toxic or attention seeking in any way shape or form. 



#36 scheivlak

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:12

Perez was driving very slowly in the hotel section in Abu Dhabi. He was not fighting there. Just backing Hamilton up. Just like Hamilton backed Rosberg up in 2016.

Slowing is a good way of fighting - getting early on the power after a slow section. Known from an awful lot of other tracks like e.g. the Barcelona chicane in S3. We see it every other F2 race. Nothing special about that.



#37 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:27

Slowing is a good way of fighting - getting early on the power after a slow section. Known from an awful lot of other tracks like e.g. the Barcelona chicane in S3. We see it every other F2 race. Nothing special about that.

Losing 7 seconds per lap is not a good way of fighting.



#38 scheivlak

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:28

Losing 7 seconds per lap is not a good way of fighting.

Racing is not a time trial.



#39 huggybear

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:28

Alonso didn't do anything wrong? There's nothing in the regulations that says you have to hit a specific race laptime. Just that you can't drive erratically slowly. Which Alonso didn't do.

 

The claim that he destroyed the races of the cars behind him is nonsense. They weren't able to run their optimal strategy, but Alonso is under no obligation to allow them to run their optimal strategy, and given that he said he was saving his tyres, he would have had to destroy his own strategy so that his competitors could run a more optimal strategy.

They were fighting for position, he wasn't being lapped, and he wasn't driving dangerously slowly either, so I'm not sure what the issue with his driving actually is. 



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#40 Nathan

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:32

Lol. No. If he's 3 seconds off the pace, you should be able to pass him.

 

This is not legitimate.  If the car was actually 3 seconds faster, ok maybe.  But as soon as Ham pulls out to pass what is Alonso driving at 70% going to do??



#41 JimmyClark

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:38

More rules are not the answer. It's Monaco - it's part of the uniqueness of the place, as frustrating as it is.

#42 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:41

Racing is not a time trial.

I think you're just playing dumb now.  Perez had a pit stop to make, whereas Hamilton and Verstappen already pitted.  By "masterfully defending" in a way that lost him 7 seconds per lap, he was tanking his race in order to damage Lewis's race.  He was not doing anything that was making sense if maximizing his own results were his objective, which is what you're implying. 

 

It does not make sense to back the entire field up if still have a pit stop to make while the field doesn't, that's just going take you down the order or at least make you lose time to the leader.  It only makes sense if someone else's benefit is your primary concern, and your own interests are irrelevant.



#43 Casey

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 22:51

That was some nice grouping from Alonso !99gd5qizzf291.jpg



#44 Tony Mandara

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Posted 29 May 2022 - 23:46

107% applies to qualifying laps only, not racing laps.

#45 MastaKink

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 00:20

Do we know why he was doing it yet? Was there a decent tactical reason to do it? Or was he just doing it because he could?

 

To avoid tyre wear like Perez I would imagine. Except he wouldn't have been in clean air but was in an Alpine, so it would've been much much worse based on their wear all year.



#46 Wolbo

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 00:25

Poor Hamilton can't get past Alonso so let's change the rules.



#47 Atreiu

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 00:51

Nah, it's Alpine who should look at it and decide if those are the standards they want from their drivers. If so, carry on.



#48 Claymore25

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 00:53

Alonso did nothing wrong.



#49 Gambelli

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 00:53

Nah, it's Alpine who should look at it and decide if those are the standards they want from their drivers. If so, carry on.

 

This is a good point actually.  They are ultimately representing the Alpine brand



#50 HP

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 00:57

I don't think that is worth an investigation.

 

It reminded me much of what Fangio said about winning a race as slow as possible.

 

I also found it amusing in context of the Alonso/Trulli partnership back in the days at Renault, where there so often formed a Trulli-train.

 

Lol. No. If he's 3 seconds off the pace, you should be able to pass him.

Except that in this case had Hamilton tried to overtake Alonso, Alonso would simply have speed up.