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Isle of Man TT: Too Dangerous? (Split)


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#1 William Hunt

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 20:15

Greatest motor racing shows on earth are Indy 500 & Le Mans. TT at Isle of Mann should be forbidden by law imho considering how many people killed themselves there. It's a massacre.
Some people have to be protected against themselves.

 

In 2019 the death counter was at 260 deaths. You can't possibly defend that and don't come with this crap argument 'they died doing what the loved': that's a fallacy and fake argument.

 

https://en.wikipedia...urse_fatalities


Edited by William Hunt, 30 May 2022 - 20:15.


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#2 GregThomas

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 20:30

Well, Mr Hunt, I've known personally three Kiwis who've died there. Without exception, if you'd told them that they would die there they would still have gone back.

 

Like the summit of Everest, it has an attraction which yes, can be deadly, but is undeniable.  It is the Summit.

 

 

Less kiwi's there this year due to pandemic etc. Next year the assault will recommence.



#3 Collombin

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 20:31

Some people have to be protected against themselves.


I hope an actual TT rider sees this and gives it the response it deserves.

Why come into this thread at all if you don't like the event?

#4 milestone 11

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 21:27

Well, Mr Hunt, I've known personally three Kiwis who've died there. Without exception, if you'd told them that they would die there they would still have gone back.

 

Like the summit of Everest, it has an attraction which yes, can be deadly, but is undeniable.  It is the Summit.

 

 

Less kiwi's there this year due to pandemic etc. Next year the assault will recommence.

I know what Dobbsy and Chris would have said too Greg.



#5 milestone 11

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 21:31

Greatest motor racing shows on earth are Indy 500 & Le Mans. TT at Isle of Mann should be forbidden by law imho considering how many people killed themselves there. It's a massacre.
Some people have to be protected against themselves.

 

In 2019 the death counter was at 260 deaths. You can't possibly defend that and don't come with this crap argument 'they died doing what the loved': that's a fallacy and fake argument.

 

https://en.wikipedia...urse_fatalities

As I said to Henri Greuter, if you want a soap box to squawk from, open a thread. Massacre? You don´t even know the meaning of the word.



#6 TerryC63

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 21:45

Greatest motor racing shows on earth are Indy 500 & Le Mans. TT at Isle of Mann should be forbidden by law imho considering how many people killed themselves there. It's a massacre.
Some people have to be protected against themselves.

 

In 2019 the death counter was at 260 deaths. You can't possibly defend that and don't come with this crap argument 'they died doing what the loved': that's a fallacy and fake argument.

 

https://en.wikipedia...urse_fatalities

You should pop over to the IOM and point out the error of their ways to them. I would love to  hear their response.

I have a feeling you have never met anyone who has competed at the TT, as you really do not get it.



#7 paulb

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 21:56

*sigh*

 

I agree that Mr. Hunt should take up TerryC63’s suggestion.



#8 SuperMax

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 21:59

In short no, its a risk the riders accept. Its good that in this day and age where everything is risk averse to the extreme (looking at you F1 RD) a race like this exist.

#9 jonpollak

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:03

MumsNet is two doors down then left.

Jp

#10 BoDarvelle

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:04

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games,” Ernest Hemingway once said.

 

 

The Isle of Man and some rallying are about the only motorsports that still fit Hemingway's definition.

 

Sad.



#11 PlatenGlass

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:23

But then a lot of people would be saying the same stuff as you are to the likes of Jackie Stewart complaining about F1 safety all those decades ago. Was he wrong?



#12 William Hunt

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:32

Please use valid arguments instead of attacking the person voicing his opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.

I believe, and that is my opinion, that there are very little, if any, counter arguments you can use when confronted with the number of 260 deaths in an event that takes place over just one week every year.

And that number doesn't include spectator or official deaths, serious injuries, deaths of drivers practising for the event during the year. I doesn't even include the deaths of two drivers who died on a 'parade lap' (so it should be 262).

 

Deaths per decade:

 

1910s:   3

1920s:   7

1930s:  11

1940s:   7 

1950s:  33

1960s:  28

1970s:  37

1980s:  28

1990s:  43

2000s:  32

2010s:  33

 

* In 2005 there were 9 drivers who died in a single weak at a single event that year. That's a massacre.

 

Back in the '70, in particular after the event of 1973, there was public debate about whether the Indy 500 should continue. Two drivers had died (Art Pollard & Swede Savage) and one severely injured (Salt Walther) whilst a mechanic (Armando Terran) also lost his life.

Indy did manage in the long run to improve safety. But the number of casualties at the Isle of Mann TT / Manx GP is nowhere near the stats of the Indy 500. So we should have a civilised debate over it. As I said before: humans sometimes have to be protected for their own safety.

 

And I don't think relatives who lost their family members or children who last their daddy, are that happy about losing them. Maybe some can accept it but in the end they are left behind with pain and loss.

 

The reason that some people react very violently to anyone who even dares to mention the death numbers or who even dares to mention it's better to stop the event is because people tend to react very emotionaly when something they like is criticised.
Hence they can't think logically or objectively based on hard cold facts anymore. Because their reaction is pure emotions devoid of any rationality. We can't have a serious debate if people are only going to react from their emotions.

 

If people want to have a sport that is:  having gun duels one the street resulting in many deaths every year or jumping from appartment windows on the street in the hope of surviving it (highest jump who survives wins the competition).
Should we allow it just because 'they love doing it'???

TT takes place on public streets and results in deaths every year: people who die is a social and public problem, it's in fact also a political issue because the goverment is supposed to stop people killing themselves or killing others.

And therefore there should be a public debate about it. I love motor racing but I consider the Isle of Man TT barbaric. And I wouldn't want to be a spectator who happens to witness a driver thrown off his bike and against a house who dies on the spot. I don't enjoy such scenes neither would I want to lose a family member doing that.

 

Now please react with arguments and facts instead of personal insults. You're not going to win sympathy for your event by attacking people who have honest concernt about the safety of the event.

 

Reply by using arguments how you believe the safety can be increased and the death toll stopped. Don't use stupid fallacies like 'they did what they loved', that is not a valid argument but a fallacy used to kill debate about it.

 

Serial killers also are doing what they love.

Should we just let them continue their killing spree then?

If people lose their lives it becomes a public issue and therefore topic of public / polticial debate. It is not up to 'fans' or competitors to decide that it can't be discussed because they are emotionally attached to the subject.


Edited by William Hunt, 30 May 2022 - 22:46.


#13 William Hunt

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:43

Well, Mr Hunt, I've known personally three Kiwis who've died there. Without exception, if you'd told them that they would die there they would still have gone back.......

 

How do you know what their opinion would have been post their own death?    Can you talk to the dead?   



#14 Collombin

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:48

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but why should your opinion override that of the riders who are fully aware of everything you say and still want to do it? All this "protect them from themselves" stuff sounds pretty insulting and patronising.

#15 GregThomas

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 22:52

How do you know what their opinion would have been post their own death?    Can you talk to the dead?   

Don't need to - talked to them before their deaths.  Holden and Dobbs certainly weren't shy about saying it publicly. Both had been interviewed multiple times on the subject.

 

Milestone 11  I'd met Chris but the subject never came up. Given his family background I wouldn't have expected anything but dedication.



#16 F1Johnny

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 23:05

How do you know what their opinion would have been post their own death?    Can you talk to the dead?   

 

I find the event amazing to watch and I believe is the most dangerous motorsports event out there. But do you think they don't understand the risk? They understand it better than you as they are the ones feeling the bike give that wiggle they've never felt before at 150MPH and then head back out for another run.  It has to be so compelling to them to go out there or they wouldn't do it.  Whereas I'm sure I could race cars, bikes as much as I love them, I couldn't do it. And the TT?? - I would crap my pants as I heard them start up the bike, much less select 1st gear. 

 

These guys really and truly love speed and always will.


Edited by F1Johnny, 30 May 2022 - 23:07.


#17 Ruusperi

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 23:06

It's called freedom. Only a truly free person can do stupid things to oneself or even kill oneself.

 

Of course there's a philosophical discussion, that if we aid the person to kill him/herself in any way, is that immoral. If I give someone my gun, and the person kills himself, there's going to be investigation whether or not I knew this would happen. But if I give someone my bike, and some other person hosts a race, and there's a fatal accident, I don't think I and the host should be responsible for it. 1 out of 1000000 it wouldn't have happened. Even if the risk of death is 1 out of 10000, who's to say that's the criterion an event should be banned? Incidentally, whether Russian Roulette should be illegal or not is another interesting philosophical dilemma.

 

But just because there have been fatalities before, or we think something is "very" dangerous, we are not entitled to decide on behalf of other people what they can or can't do with their life.



#18 William Hunt

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 23:09

Drivers getting killed at public roads is just as much part of public debate as gun control. Both are public issues. I don't think people should have the freedom to buy guns and own them by the way.


Edited by William Hunt, 30 May 2022 - 23:10.


#19 Blundle

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 23:26

To ban an activity simply because it is dangerous would be hugely illiberal. This form of racing is by no mainstream, even within motorcycle racing itself, therefore it’s impossible to construct an argument that people who wish to build a career motorcycle racing are forced to participate in the TT. Those who choose race at the IoM make a very specific and conscious choice - there are many alternative, more lucrative and safer options for prospective professional riders.

 

Similarly, pointing to the families of riders who have been killed is a flawed and simplistic argument. Where should we draw the line in terms of preventing parents from putting themselves at risk, should they be banned from serving in the armed forces, the fire brigade or the police? Moreover, the mindset of those who participate is what, presumably, attracts them to their partners and makes them who they are. How would we create a happier and healthier society by preventing people from doing those things that they love and excel at?

 

In basic terms classical liberalism dictates that individuals should be barred from doing only those things which directly harm others. Of course, no political philosophy can answer every problem but returning to liberal principles is a good way of avoiding draconian, authoritarian or restrictive measures in all walks of life. Ultimately the joy, inspiration and entertainment that the TT offers hundreds of thousands if not millions of people far outweighs the the fact that is dangerous. And something being dangerous does not mean that is inherently bad or wrong. 


Edited by Blundle, 30 May 2022 - 23:28.


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#20 eibyyz

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 23:50

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games,” Ernest Hemingway once said.

 

 

 

 

I heard it as: Bullfighting, motor racing and boxing.

 

(And bullfighting's not a sport.)

 

Ma Nature's either run out of or is close to running out of peaks to climb, so I can't call that a sport, either.


Edited by eibyyz, 31 May 2022 - 00:44.


#21 William Hunt

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Posted 30 May 2022 - 23:54

It's not because it's dangerous but because people actually die there with an average of 4 per year and up to 9 in 2005. So it's because the danger is lethal and the deaths actually happen. It's not like there aren't alternatives to race on and not like they couldn't build a safe permanent track as an alternative all in the name of 'tradition'.  Tradition also isn't an argument.  



#22 Autodromo

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 00:10

It's not because it's dangerous but because people actually die there with an average of 4 per year and up to 9 in 2005. So it's because the danger is lethal and the deaths actually happen. It's not like there aren't alternatives to race on and not like they couldn't build a safe permanent track as an alternative all in the name of 'tradition'.  Tradition also isn't an argument.  

I think that the point is that there are safer forms of motorcycle racing if those people just want to race motorcycles.  They purposely choose this one, knowing full well the dangers.  I think it's crazy but if they want to do it then let them do it.



#23 PitViperRacing

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 01:26

It's not because it's dangerous but because people actually die there with an average of 4 per year and up to 9 in 2005. So it's because the danger is lethal and the deaths actually happen. It's not like there aren't alternatives to race on and not like they couldn't build a safe permanent track as an alternative all in the name of 'tradition'. Tradition also isn't an argument.

I understand your argument, but its core premise is flawed imo. Plenty of day to day actions people undertake are dangerous, and lots of people die in greater numbers undertaking these than in the IOM each year.

You're essentially to argue individuals rights/freedoms due to the risk associated with their actions; which to me seems draconian. WRT societal impacts, would you ban fast food/sugary drinks? Heart disease and obesity has far greater impacts on the societal/public good.

I understand those are different circumstances, I'm just extrapolating on your principle of saving people from themselves.

Edited by PitViperRacing, 31 May 2022 - 01:26.


#24 HeadFirst

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 02:02

I find it interesting that in this Forum there is a thread that argues that riders have a right to face the dangers of the IOM TT (260 deaths at last count), and another that denies drivers the right to nose, or ear studs..



#25 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 05:33

I really disagree with the serial killer analogy, these guys aren't running around killing other innocent people.

Even if a spectator was killed by rider in an accident, they are both willing participants in an extremely dangerous pass time and have accepted the risk knowingly by attending. I wouldn't ride or watch from the outside of a fast corner at the TT but if someone else is happy with that risk it's up to them.

Anyone not willing to accept the risk should not turn up. Anyone with family members not happy with their participation should have an adult conversation and act accordingly.

It's not a bloodsport, no one wants to die or get hurt or see bad things happen to people but unintentional accidents happen every day resulting in death. It cannot be avoided entirely in normal life either.

The mountaineering analogy is an apt one, over 300 have died trying to climb Everest. Without getting into percentages let's say they are both similar individual pursuits with high penalties when things go wrong. Should climbing Everest be banned also? If you add all the people globally who die rock climbing it would surely be a lot more but doesn't have the spotlight the TT has. So should climbing be banned? Or only if there was concentrated event where the top 30 free climbers tried to scale el capitan in the fastest time once a year live on TV?

#26 HP

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 05:49

At the OP. I hear what you are saying, but the most accident prone place is at home, more fatalities than any work place. Should we ban then home?

 

And more to the point.

 

Switzerland outlawed racing (at least big races) for a long time for fatalities in a race that wasn't even run in our own country, but the race was named after after it. When I grew up and started to ride motorbike I sometimes passed a certain place where there has been almost every week a fatality involving motorbikes due to many young people doing a "Mutprobe". I myself wouldn't try and attempt the same stunt, I had plans for my life. They (police, government) did everything to deter people, but it didn't work. Or in more recent years, when wing man suits were in rage, someone (mostly foreigners) fell to their deaths almost every month in certain months even more so. No way to deter them. Yes it could be banned. But the issue still persists, it just writes new headlines somewhere else.

 

Legislating these things just seem not to work. It often moves the issue somewhere else and because of the resentment against such laws, things get worse.. I found that instead of outlawing things, attempting to give people a different perspective in life works much better.



#27 Collombin

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 06:15

I heard it as: Bullfighting, motor racing and boxing.

(And bullfighting's not a sport.)

Ma Nature's either run out of or is close to running out of peaks to climb, so I can't call that a sport, either.


To be honest it isn't actually a Hemingway quote anyway, but is nearly always attributed to him.

Here's a real quote by a racing driver talking about the enjoyment he got from his career:-
"I'm sure I lived it, and I think that's what we all live for, and if we die doing it? No big deal really" - Jackie Stewart

#28 Zoe

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 06:15

 When I grew up and started to ride motorbike I sometimes passed a certain place where there has been almost every week a fatality involving motorbikes due to many young people doing a "Mutprobe". I myself wouldn't try and attempt the same stunt, I had plans for my life. They (police, government) did everything to deter people, but it didn't work.

There are two well-known mountain roads somewhat close to where I live (for the knowing: Kesselbeg and Tatzelwurm) which have been very popular for week-end racers with two or four wheels. Many many accidents and deaths, leading to the first being closed for bikers over the weekend and the second with plenty of speed limits. There is - of course - still the occasional accident due to too high speeds.

 

My opinion is, that of people want to experience the thrill of speed, or even danger associated with speed, they are welcome to do it at designated places. Spectators there know what they are up to, as do the medics at those track days. What I object to is, endangering others while following his personal thrills. There are enough bumbling flat-lander daddies on the mountain roads (much to my own chagrin) who might fall victim to a speeding person, or think of the local volunteer firemen (and medics) who have to collect body pieces of a biker who met his fate against a tree or rock.



#29 pacificquay

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 06:29

I don’t like the death toll at the Isle of Man (note, one “n”), however…

 

I am not a fan of motorcycling, have no emotional investment in it and therefore it’s not hard for me to accept the riders know the risks and enter it willingly.

 

I do enjoy car racing though, I am emotionally invested it, and therefore I’d not accept such a death toll in it.

 

So, no, the TT should not be banned.



#30 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 06:35

Nothing new about this argument. BUT how do they get rider insurance without all the ammenities pernemant tracks have to have?? Walls, barriers, even a proper pitlane?

I would never go there,, about exiting as watching grass grow. And I have no wish to see a rider die. 

Though after 60 odd years of watching and competing in motorsport I have seen a few die. Some that I knew. Including an official.

Interestingly in the last year or so here in Oz we had a series of road safety adds that actually 'featured' race tracks with light poles, bus stops etc on track edge. Clearly dangerous? Right, headlined by Mick Doohan. Yet that is what IOM is!!



#31 boomn

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 06:37

Which freedom is actually open for discussion or would ever : the freedom for riders to choose to do something very risky, or the freedom of the the organizers to host an event that is so knowingly dangerous and use the lure of tradition and glory to attract people to risk it while not investing much in catching up with modern safety improvements?

 

Many govts do choose to legislate or incentivize against self-harming behavior when it affects enough people to hurt society, because on average us humans aren't great at thinking in our own long-term interest.  To the example of sugary drinks, the UK did create a heavy tax on sugary drinks (And that is the extent of my knowledge of relevant UK law).  In the US we have laws enforcing seatbelts, and a lot of laws, regulations and heavy taxes on cigarettes.  The key there is that govts will sometimes step in when it's an issue affecting a large percent but are otherwise hesitant to restrict people's freedom to choose risk or harm.  And especially so for smaller issues like people choosing to race motorcycles on closed courses.  But... govts do seem much more likely to step in against individual business who are putting customers at risk, even if the customer base isn't very big.  But in the end, is that relevant either when the Isle of Man gov't itself is involved in this?



#32 smitten

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 06:51

It's not because it's dangerous but because people actually die there with an average of 4 per year and up to 9 in 2005. So it's because the danger is lethal and the deaths actually happen. It's not like there aren't alternatives to race on and not like they couldn't build a safe permanent track as an alternative all in the name of 'tradition'.  Tradition also isn't an argument.  

Motorcycle racing is fundamentally more dangerous that cars - just see the weekend past for what can happen at track. 

 

And road racing (all forms) is more dangerous than circuit racing.

 

These guys and girls go into it with their eyes open and well aware of the risks.  Although rider deaths are high at the TT, they are riders deaths not spectators, stewards, or innocent bystanders caught up in somebody else's choices.

 

To rephrase the question:  how many deaths are acceptable before you think a sport or pastime should be banned?  10 footballers died in 2020 - is that acceptable?  6 people died in just a fortnight walking the Scottish mountains earlier this year - is that a massacre?  1,460 drivers died and a further 20k were seriously injured on Britains roads in 2020 (including 4 months of a lockdown) - is that not more worthy of attention that trying to stop the TT?

 

If you want to ban the TT, are you also willing to ban nearly every other sport and pastime?


Edited by smitten, 31 May 2022 - 06:54.


#33 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 07:09

Please use valid arguments instead of attacking the person voicing his opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.

I believe, and that is my opinion, that there are very little, if any, counter arguments you can use when confronted with the number of 260 deaths in an event that takes place over just one week every year.

 

There is one counter argument: it's none of your business. Try banning alcohol instead, it's killing 200 people every week since donkey years, and that's in Germany alone. Where's your outrage?



#34 PlatenGlass

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 07:24

I find it interesting that in this Forum there is a thread that argues that riders have a right to face the dangers of the IOM TT (260 deaths at last count), and another that denies drivers the right to nose, or ear studs..

I think this is an interesting comparison.

My position is not that the TT definitely should be banned but that it is at least a worthwhile discussion point.

Also, is it up to the paramedics, doctors etc. to pick up the pieces from this organised mayhem? Is a contribution made to the emergency services to cover the extra work/trauma/resources?

#35 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:03

The TT organizers have close links with the Isle of Man government. Which makes sense as it's the centrepiece of the Manx tourism industry. They hire extra emergency services for the TT but I don't know who pays for it; for instance if it's like football on the mainland where big clubs are expected to contribute to their own policing costs on matchdays.

What is beyond dispute is that the TT brings in a lot of money to the island, which does make conversations about changing it more difficult. But it's not necessarily different to the tourist industry that has grown up around other extreme sports like mountain climbing or cave exploration.

#36 jonpollak

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:06

Hell I better buy all the tt content I can before you cancel mansell.
Jp

#37 ArnageWRC

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:20

Motorsport is dangerous, the TT is especially so, that's part of the challenge. The numbers can make for uncomfortable reading, but I'd be sure all who died would want it to carry on. They go there, and accept the risk; whether from a mistake, or if something fails on the bike and there is no run off......

 

Long may it continue, and leave it up to the riders to decide.



#38 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:32

Question to the OP.

Are there any motorsport events that have been banned purely because they were too dangerous, that can be used as an analogy to the TT? I’d be interested if there’s some precedent. Most dangerous events, including the TT, have evolved through a combination of losing their high profile status and increasing safety measures. Is the TT not sustainable in this category?

I’d also like to offer two anecdotes from personal experience to provide a point of view. Make of them what you will.

One is an uncle of mine (technically cousin once removed) who was and still is a keen biker. He’d ride on circuit track days whenever possible. He had an accident at Jerez and lost a thumb. He’s never shown any regret for his injury, because he loves his sport.

Another is a dear friend who I lost to extreme sport: paragliding. She had sailed with me for a couple of years at that point, and we had become a close two-up crew in dinghies. Her death was a tremendous shock, not just to me but to much of the yacht club membership. Yet there is a great comfort in knowing that she died doing what she loved. You might dismiss it as a cliche, but those are my genuine feelings about it.

For me the lesson is that thrill seekers will seek thrills.

#39 Clatter

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:43

Please use valid arguments instead of attacking the person voicing his opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.

I believe, and that is my opinion, that there are very little, if any, counter arguments you can use when confronted with the number of 260 deaths in an event that takes place over just one week every year.
And that number doesn't include spectator or official deaths, serious injuries, deaths of drivers practising for the event during the year. I doesn't even include the deaths of two drivers who died on a 'parade lap' (so it should be 262).

Deaths per decade:

1910s: 3
1920s: 7
1930s: 11
1940s: 7
1950s: 33
1960s: 28
1970s: 37
1980s: 28
1990s: 43
2000s: 32
2010s: 33

* In 2005 there were 9 drivers who died in a single weak at a single event that year. That's a massacre.

Back in the '70, in particular after the event of 1973, there was public debate about whether the Indy 500 should continue. Two drivers had died (Art Pollard & Swede Savage) and one severely injured (Salt Walther) whilst a mechanic (Armando Terran) also lost his life.
Indy did manage in the long run to improve safety. But the number of casualties at the Isle of Mann TT / Manx GP is nowhere near the stats of the Indy 500. So we should have a civilised debate over it. As I said before: humans sometimes have to be protected for their own safety.

And I don't think relatives who lost their family members or children who last their daddy, are that happy about losing them. Maybe some can accept it but in the end they are left behind with pain and loss.

The reason that some people react very violently to anyone who even dares to mention the death numbers or who even dares to mention it's better to stop the event is because people tend to react very emotionaly when something they like is criticised.
Hence they can't think logically or objectively based on hard cold facts anymore. Because their reaction is pure emotions devoid of any rationality. We can't have a serious debate if people are only going to react from their emotions.

If people want to have a sport that is: having gun duels one the street resulting in many deaths every year or jumping from appartment windows on the street in the hope of surviving it (highest jump who survives wins the competition).
Should we allow it just because 'they love doing it'???
TT takes place on public streets and results in deaths every year: people who die is a social and public problem, it's in fact also a political issue because the goverment is supposed to stop people killing themselves or killing others.
And therefore there should be a public debate about it. I love motor racing but I consider the Isle of Man TT barbaric. And I wouldn't want to be a spectator who happens to witness a driver thrown off his bike and against a house who dies on the spot. I don't enjoy such scenes neither would I want to lose a family member doing that.

Now please react with arguments and facts instead of personal insults. You're not going to win sympathy for your event by attacking people who have honest concernt about the safety of the event.

Reply by using arguments how you believe the safety can be increased and the death toll stopped. Don't use stupid fallacies like 'they did what they loved', that is not a valid argument but a fallacy used to kill debate about it.

Serial killers also are doing what they love.
Should we just let them continue their killing spree then?

If people lose their lives it becomes a public issue and therefore topic of public / polticial debate. It is not up to 'fans' or competitors to decide that it can't be discussed because they are emotionally attached to the subject.

I love the way you try to shut down any discussion by stating there are no valid arguments against your opinion. Im right your wrong, clearly won't matter what anyone says.

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#40 Roadhouse

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:50

Ma Nature's either run out of or is close to running out of peaks to climb, so I can't call that a sport, either.


I guess that rules out Motorsport, seeing as it's always the same lap.

#41 F1 Mike

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:51

Please use valid arguments instead of attacking the person voicing his opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.

I believe, and that is my opinion, that there are very little, if any, counter arguments you can use when confronted with the number of 260 deaths in an event that takes place over just one week every year.
And that number doesn't include spectator or official deaths, serious injuries, deaths of drivers practising for the event during the year. I doesn't even include the deaths of two drivers who died on a 'parade lap' (so it should be 262).

Deaths per decade:

1910s: 3
1920s: 7
1930s: 11
1940s: 7
1950s: 33
1960s: 28
1970s: 37
1980s: 28
1990s: 43
2000s: 32
2010s: 33

* In 2005 there were 9 drivers who died in a single weak at a single event that year. That's a massacre.

Back in the '70, in particular after the event of 1973, there was public debate about whether the Indy 500 should continue. Two drivers had died (Art Pollard & Swede Savage) and one severely injured (Salt Walther) whilst a mechanic (Armando Terran) also lost his life.
Indy did manage in the long run to improve safety. But the number of casualties at the Isle of Mann TT / Manx GP is nowhere near the stats of the Indy 500. So we should have a civilised debate over it. As I said before: humans sometimes have to be protected for their own safety.

And I don't think relatives who lost their family members or children who last their daddy, are that happy about losing them. Maybe some can accept it but in the end they are left behind with pain and loss.

The reason that some people react very violently to anyone who even dares to mention the death numbers or who even dares to mention it's better to stop the event is because people tend to react very emotionaly when something they like is criticised.
Hence they can't think logically or objectively based on hard cold facts anymore. Because their reaction is pure emotions devoid of any rationality. We can't have a serious debate if people are only going to react from their emotions.

If people want to have a sport that is: having gun duels one the street resulting in many deaths every year or jumping from appartment windows on the street in the hope of surviving it (highest jump who survives wins the competition).
Should we allow it just because 'they love doing it'???
TT takes place on public streets and results in deaths every year: people who die is a social and public problem, it's in fact also a political issue because the goverment is supposed to stop people killing themselves or killing others.
And therefore there should be a public debate about it. I love motor racing but I consider the Isle of Man TT barbaric. And I wouldn't want to be a spectator who happens to witness a driver thrown off his bike and against a house who dies on the spot. I don't enjoy such scenes neither would I want to lose a family member doing that.

Now please react with arguments and facts instead of personal insults. You're not going to win sympathy for your event by attacking people who have honest concernt about the safety of the event.

Reply by using arguments how you believe the safety can be increased and the death toll stopped. Don't use stupid fallacies like 'they did what they loved', that is not a valid argument but a fallacy used to kill debate about it.

Serial killers also are doing what they love.
Should we just let them continue their killing spree then?

If people lose their lives it becomes a public issue and therefore topic of public / polticial debate. It is not up to 'fans' or competitors to decide that it can't be discussed because they are emotionally attached to the subject.


A massacre?

Why not just campaign to ban motorbikes altogether? It's clearly too dangerous being so exposed to the elements.

#42 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:53

1910s:   3

1920s:   7

1930s:  11

1940s:   7 

1950s:  33

1960s:  28

1970s:  37

1980s:  28

1990s:  43

2000s:  32

2010s:  33

 

Looking at these numbers it's interesting that the number of fatalities has more or less held steady even as the lap speeds have gone up considerably. This couldn't happen without a lot of safety precautions being taken, right? Even if they're things like putting soft barriers in front of lampposts, ensuring that smoking bikes get off the racing line and have a belly pan to catch leaking oil, or not running races in bad weather. Advances in medical care and surgery in the case of serious injuries have probably helped too.



#43 Catalina Park

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:56

Please use valid arguments instead of attacking the person voicing his opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.

Back in the '70, in particular after the event of 1973, there was public debate about whether the Indy 500 should continue. Two drivers had died (Art Pollard & Swede Savage) and one severely injured (Salt Walther) whilst a mechanic (Armando Terran) also lost his life.

Indy did manage in the long run to improve safety. But the number of casualties at the Isle of Mann TT / Manx GP is nowhere near the stats of the Indy 500. So we should have a civilised debate over it. As I said before: humans sometimes have to be protected for their own safety.

 

The talk of banning the Indy 500 in 1973 had very little to do with the driver deaths and was more about a car almost flying into main grandstand and the resulting injuries to a bunch of spectators.

When a driver dies there is a queue of drivers waiting to take his place, if a spectator dies the lawyers form the queue.



#44 PistolPete

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:59

Well, Mr Hunt, I've known personally three Kiwis who've died there. Without exception, if you'd told them that they would die there they would still have gone back.


Personally i dont like it.. Watching a show where you know someone will die for no reason.

Your friends may have said so before they died, but I’m sure they did not mean it. Look ar the halo, how many drivers stated that they disliked it and would rather drive without it risking their lives, only until the day something actually happens and it most likely saved their life.

#45 Rinehart

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 08:59

Please use valid arguments instead of attacking the person voicing his opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.

 

 Are you entitled to the opinion of calling for the banning of a pursuit that doesn't affect you in the slightest as you're never going to participate and you don't have to watch? 

 

How many deaths are acceptable then Mr Hunt, because at least someone has died in every sport. So perhaps we should ban them all. 

 

Hum, my opinion is that you're attitude is extremely selfish and narrow-minded. Thanks for your blessing on that score. 



#46 Henri Greuter

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 10:32

Question to the OP.

Are there any motorsport events that have been banned purely because they were too dangerous, that can be used as an analogy to the TT? I’d be interested if there’s some precedent. Most dangerous events, including the TT, have evolved through a combination of losing their high profile status and increasing safety measures. Is the TT not sustainable in this category?

 

 

 

 I am not the OP and I am disappointed that no-one answered this question already yet, leaving me little choise to get involved in this subject after all. I wanted to stay out of it , and I will, other than with answereing the question above with facts.

 

I can name one example of an event  forbidden by the government, due to causing too many fatal accidents on which there was no grip to reduce them.

 

Carrera Panamericana Mexico, held between 1950 and 1954. On average over 4 fatailties for drivers & spectators combined. Forbidden in 1955 but, granted, Le Mans 1955 may also have been a factor in this ban. 

 

Another event forbidden by authorities was after the last one in 1957:  the Mille Miglia.  (Portago crashing to his death and taking some 10 spectators with him on their last journey too)

 

Finally: OTOMH I lack the specific details as for why etc. but the Targa Florio was another event taken from the list of sports car races from 1974 on. I have to look up the details why but that was another road race event that became not longer sustainable with the cars of that moment anymore. 

 

 

Anyway, there are at least two that were at the time of being banned annual events that were cancelled due to the risk for too many fatalities 


Edited by Henri Greuter, 31 May 2022 - 10:33.


#47 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 10:34

There's a difference between risk to spectators/bystanders and risk to competitors though. If a crashed superbike flew into somebody's front room who happened to live by the course, that would change things very quickly.

 

Safety concerns were often cited as causing the end of the great city-to-city races after the Paris-Bordeaux-Madrid race of 1903. But whether safety was really at the forefront of organizers' minds or if it was just a cover for an event that was already outmoded and no one really wanted to continue, I don't know. A look at the history of motor racing suggests that closed-road races on big circuits are the exception rather than the norm.

 

Something you never see at the Isle of Man is spectators on the track or blocking the road. I'm pretty sure that in the cancelled road events that Henri mentioned, most ended because of crashes that were caused by inadequate crowd control and a driver swerving to avoid somebody standing or running into the road. This seems like basic stuff but it doesn't just happen, it's the result of a lot of effort and organization behind the scenes and of course cooperation from spectators and the local communities. Again this is the opposite of what I assume the OP means by barbaric.



#48 Zoe

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 10:35

Not a racing event per se, but Group B rallye cars have been cancelled as well, following some (a few?) massive fatal accidents.



#49 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 10:47

As an off-topic, I had a dream last night that Jolyon Palmer had just died racing the TT. I was very sad, but then I reasoned with myself that if this was real, I wouldn't have heard about it at 3am when everyone was asleep.



#50 Roadhouse

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Posted 31 May 2022 - 10:57

As an off-topic, I had a dream last night that Jolyon Palmer had just died racing the TT. I was very sad, but then I reasoned with myself that if this was real, I wouldn't have heard about it at 3am when everyone was asleep.

 

If ... can win Indy, then Palmer can win the TT -> TT is deadly -> Palmer died racing TT?


Edited by Roadhouse, 31 May 2022 - 11:06.