122 replies to this topic

[amerikalei]

Wow, very cool.

We’re broken down with a blown engine in our van, so this took a little load off.

True story.

The FB McLaren on the cover of this RA program was ours.  Somebody must have known someone in the RA marketing department to get such prominent billing.  Chuck Dietrich (who drove everything from MGTC's; nearly every Elva model; Lotus, Lola and Brabham formula cars of various displacement; F5000 for Carl Hogan's first year in the series; Alfa, Ferrari SWB, and Camaros at Daytona and Sebring; a Porsche 914/6 for Midvo Porsche-Audi US; and ended with a Martini FC car in his long career) was the pilot.  Grew up with a poster of this in my room. 

 

https://shop.roadame...oad-america-500

 

Hope the repairs go ok!

[E1pix]

In the “Beyond Too Cool” category, wait... Chuck was your Dad???

I have that program, and all from RA 1960-something though 1981. Grew up watching him race, especially in the BT38, and a buddy near here was something of a neighbor (Chip Keller).

Think we’ve reached phone call territory... :-)

[davidbuckden]

This is how the car appeared at Mosport. The dramatic black paint job came later and on a different car, if I understand David #85 above.

The different livery really suited the car.

 

Canadian Motorsport Hall of Fame

Your picture is of the AVS Mk.1 which George drove at Mosport, moving to 5^th before retiring after 24 laps with an overheating engine, (now, just who’s idea was it to have a wing-mounted rad?).  Nichols was particularly miffed as TV coverage of the event didn’t start until just after his car had stopped.  The car had partially proved the low-drag concept, it being no less than 18 mph faster than the M8Ds on the straight.  That car, still red/orange, went on to Saint-Jovite.  The rads had been relocated inside the rear wing, but engine overheating continued to be a major affliction.  Retirement this time came on lap 14.  On its way home, its trailer was hit by a stolen car and badly damaged.  At that point Trevor Harris gave up and a new chassis was made by Jim Mederer.  George tried it, but even he didn’t fancy racing it.  So along came Vic, who persisted with it, getting the team to make improvements which made it driveable, just!  That’s the car seen (at Mid-Ohio) in its black paint job, in the two pictures I’ve posted.  It didn’t reappear - replaced the following season by the Peter Bryant Mk. 2.

[GreenMachine]

Although I refer to it as the 'tiny one in' my head, the car Vic's driving was actually the third Shadow, after the 'true' (and astonishing) Tiny One and the Dollar Car. Where Trevor Harris had focused much on low drag in the first two, this one by Jim Mederer seemed, with that rear wing, to be geared to the opposite characteristic. It certainly looked impressive and was very good as a carrier of the SHADOW script, but, as you say, must have been an aerodynamic 'anomaly.' That was my point about design - previously 'by eye,' nowadays by data.  That car ran at Mid Ohio, but retired early - Pete Lyons reported that Vic had said he'd stop if he felt the car's instability could be a threat to other drivers' safety, so he did. It didn't run for the rest of the season, but a 'more sensible' Mk.II appeared for '71. Happy days.

 

 

I think there is a considerable foreshortening of the car in that photo, compare with red car above.  I presume the red car and the black one would have been similar, but regardless that photo seems quite exaggerated to me.

 

 

Re: laminar flow - any laminar flow over this car stopped at the front brake ducts and mirrors. The Shadow, like almost every other race car run on closed circuits, yesterday and today, has little laminar flow at all.

 

This.  Laminar flow is a particular condition of the airflow, and is dependent on the right shape, and a very smooth surface with no irregularities, including squashed bugs (I do not joke).  A non-laminar flow is still quite capable of generating significant lift/downforce, without the high maintenance.

[Charlieman]

Re: laminar flow - any laminar flow over this car stopped at the front brake ducts and mirrors. The Shadow, like almost every other race car run on closed circuits, yesterday and today, has little laminar flow at all.

My comment was intended to be ironic so I missed out the quotation marks for "laminar flow". I suppose we could come up with a definition of laminar flow over racing cars, maybe something about maintaining a boundary layer or whatever. Contemporarily with this Shadow, Derek Gardner at Tyrrell tried to build cars which allowed the rear wing to work -- a working airbox and smooth back to the car.

 

Re: overheating -- Wouldn't the Lotus 49 Monaco GP tea tray wing, a bit exaggerated, been enough to create downforce and some vortices to draw air through the radiators?

[10kDA]

 

This.  Laminar flow is a particular condition of the airflow, and is dependent on the right shape, and a very smooth surface with no irregularities, including squashed bugs (I do not joke).  A non-laminar flow is still quite capable of generating significant lift/downforce, without the high maintenance.

Indeed - many gliders flown in races have installed bug-wipers to keep the leading edges of the wings clean.

 

https://youtu.be/lpDUatAb0Sk

 

See that little sliding vent on the side of the bubble in the video? That's where laminar flow stops on that side of the bubble, resulting in a diverging Vee-shaped turbulent wake behind it. These are pics of my glider being assembled. Laminar flow exists in flight to about the back of the canopy bubble - maybe. Once it trips to turbulent flow, all you can do to minimize drag is neck down the cross section to minimize wetted area, hence the small-diameter of the fuselage out to the tail.

 

 

 

This general shape has been proven to sustain laminar flow about as good as it gets. About the only cars that come close are lakesters with drop tanks for bodies. And the wheels and suspension parts out in the breeze don't help things.

 

 

 

 

My comment was intended to be ironic so I missed out the quotation marks for "laminar flow". I suppose we could come up with a definition of laminar flow over racing cars, maybe something about maintaining a boundary layer or whatever. Contemporarily with this Shadow, Derek Gardner at Tyrrell tried to build cars which allowed the rear wing to work -- a working airbox and smooth back to the car.

 

Re: overheating -- Wouldn't the Lotus 49 Monaco GP tea tray wing, a bit exaggerated, been enough to create downforce and some vortices to draw air through the radiators?

The tea tray could probably work if the gap around the rads was managed. Air, being a fluid medium, will always go to the path of least resistance. Sort of like taking a big gulp of your brewski through clenched teeth. It can be done but it will take longer than if you open your mouth a bit. The downforce from a flat plate is a result of deflection. Downforce is downforce. A wing creates its downforce with a lot less drag and frontal area than a simple deflector. But using low pressure to draw air through radiators in close proximity to the low pressure-generating surface would probably upset the function of a wing, and do nothing at all to degrade the function of a flat deflector.

Edited by 10kDA, 21 June 2022 - 12:51.

[davidbuckden]

This is how the car appeared at Mosport. The dramatic black paint job came later and on a different car, if I understand David #85 above.

The different livery really suited the car.

 

Canadian Motorsport Hall of Fame

 

You can better see the proportions of the car in the picture I posted in #85.  But, from whatever angle you look at it, you have to admire Vic's insouciance in regard to the safety of his feet, though he had of course had recent similar concerns in his early experiences with the 917.

 

This pic provides a good comparison of the two versions of Mk. 1:

 

 

Edited by davidbuckden, 21 June 2022 - 13:14.

[PCC]

You can better see the proportions of the car in the picture I posted in #85.  But, from whatever angle you look at it, you have to admire Vic's insouciance in regard to the safety of his feet, though he had of course had recent similar concerns in his early experiences with the 917.

 

This pic provides a good comparison of the two versions of Mk. 1:

 

 

Can-Am cars were, so often, things of such great beauty.

 

But not this one. I loved it anyway.

[kayemod]

You can better see the proportions of the car in the picture I posted in #85.  But, from whatever angle you look at it, you have to admire Vic's insouciance in regard to the safety of his feet, though he had of course had recent similar concerns in his early experiences with the 917.

 

This pic provides a good comparison of the two versions of Mk. 1:

 

 

 

 

I suspect that Vic would indeed have been worried about the safety of his feet, in fact probably the safety of his whole body. These little cars had such a low front end that he had to drive with his feet splayed out almost horizontally on the two pedals, it had been the same for George Follmer. Only two pedals as there was no way a third could be crammed in, which contortions must have been sheer hell when driving any distance, though due to the car's frailties, drivers were never called upon to do many laps. The presence of only two pedals led to some observers thinking that the car must have some kind of automatic gearbox, but they'd not noticed that the clutch was a cable operated device that the driver had to work by hand.

 

The cars may have been fast in a straight line when they lasted, but they were always several seconds slower around a lap. Colin Chapman could have told them why that was. Defending the Lotus 78's comparative lack of straight line speed, he explained that a car that was faster than anything else into, around and out of corners, was never going to be passed on the straight, and so it proved.

[davidbuckden]

I suspect that Vic would indeed have been worried about the safety of his feet, in fact probably the safety of his whole body. These little cars had such a low front end that he had to drive with his feet splayed out almost horizontally on the two pedals, it had been the same for George Follmer. Only two pedals as there was no way a third could be crammed in, which contortions must have been sheer hell when driving any distance, though due to the car's frailties, drivers were never called upon to do many laps. The presence of only two pedals led to some observers thinking that the car must have some kind of automatic gearbox, but they'd not noticed that the clutch was a cable operated device that the driver had to work by hand.

 

The cars may have been fast in a straight line when they lasted, but they were always several seconds slower around a lap. Colin Chapman could have told them why that was. Defending the Lotus 78's comparative lack of straight line speed, he explained that a car that was faster than anything else into, around and out of corners, was never going to be passed on the straight, and so it proved.

Fully agree, but isn't it nice that there was a time, fondly remembered by me for one, when people could still 'hope' that a new approach might just work, whereas today with data and globally-accumulated experience on tap, the 'window' for interpretation of a set of regs is really pretty narrow.  To my mind it doesn't help that there are so very many things that are strictly specified by the governing body, the current Formula 1 being  most notable for this.  George and Vic would be in trouble today - the size of their balls would surely not be FIA-compliant! 

Edited by davidbuckden, 21 June 2022 - 16:44.

[JacnGille]

We’re broken down with a blown engine in our van, so this took a little load off.
 

  geeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[E1pix]

Must you swear? (LOL)

[GreenMachine]

E, I hope the repairs go smoothly.

[E1pix]

Thanks, Bud.

We’re headed towards a 52:1 power-to-weight, so are looking at five-point belts and stuff.

[JacnGille]

Must you swear? (LOL)

Ever think about puttin a rev limiter in that thing??????  

Edited by JacnGille, 22 June 2022 - 03:36.

[E1pix]

It has one, and we’re good to it. Seems the crank broke, or cam froze, not sure. First motor I’ve ever hurt after 2m miles.

[amerikalei]

FWIW Can-Am enthusiasts might be interested to know that David Bull Publishing (www.bullpublishing.com/) currently has copies of Peter Bryant's Can-Am Challenger discounted to $24.95, which seems like a good deal for an insightful book about the era, the TI-22 and Shadow operations.  I bought mine awhile back, and then it looked like it was sold out, so this might be an opportunity for anyone who missed it.

[JacnGille]

FWIW Can-Am enthusiasts might be interested to know that David Bull Publishing (www.bullpublishing.com/) currently has copies of Peter Bryant's Can-Am Challenger discounted to $24.95, which seems like a good deal for an insightful book about the era, the TI-22 and Shadow operations.  I bought mine awhile back, and then it looked like it was sold out, so this might be an opportunity for anyone who missed it.

Should have waited to get my copy.

[sabrejet]

FWIW Can-Am enthusiasts might be interested to know that David Bull Publishing (www.bullpublishing.com/) currently has copies of Peter Bryant's Can-Am Challenger discounted to $24.95, which seems like a good deal for an insightful book about the era, the TI-22 and Shadow operations.  I bought mine awhile back, and then it looked like it was sold out, so this might be an opportunity for anyone who missed it.

 

Highly recommended: one of my favourite motorsport books!

[LittleChris]

Mine too.

[davidbuckden]

FWIW Can-Am enthusiasts might be interested to know that David Bull Publishing (www.bullpublishing.com/) currently has copies of Peter Bryant's Can-Am Challenger discounted to $24.95, which seems like a good deal for an insightful book about the era, the TI-22 and Shadow operations.  I bought mine awhile back, and then it looked like it was sold out, so this might be an opportunity for anyone who missed it.

Yes, it's good, though I wish the quality of the photographs was better.  But the main disappointment is that Peter didn't continue in motor sport, longer term. And although it's good to have Peter's own take on things, the saga of the post-Harris, pre-Southgate Shadows is I think better told and illustrated in Pete Lyons's excellent 'SHADOW: The Magnificent Machines of a Man of Mystery.' Terrific era and such a contrast both technically and in sporting terms with contemporary sports car racing.

[RobertE]

 

Deafening....  

 

DCN

 

Not even a sheep to be alarmed; my favourite Sunday morning drive is on Exmoor - the main risk is hitting an escaped wild boar...

[Duc-Man]

You can better see the proportions of the car in the picture I posted in #85.  But, from whatever angle you look at it, you have to admire Vic's insouciance in regard to the safety of his feet, though he had of course had recent similar concerns in his early experiences with the 917.

 

This pic provides a good comparison of the two versions of Mk. 1:

 

 

Safety for the feet...

 

Well the Avs Shadow Mk.I was about as safe or unsave as the other cars at the time.

When the bodywork comes off, you will be scared when you see what's underneath.

Here is a couple photos I took through the years:

https://www.flickr.c...th/52271815976/