135 replies to this topic

[Peat]

As soon as I saw the 'Yellow Sector 3' and they said it was Alonso stopped, I just knew he would have done something like that. That video just confirms it.  He's not stupid, he was sitting pretty at the time and had already been bottling people up to try and make them miss the chance to even start a timed lap. 

He's smart, but it's almost trolling at this point. At the very least, unsporting. 

FIA should take it as an opportunity. He's showing the glaring holes in the rules/sporting code. That one is an easy on to tidy up - driver who causes the yellow/red get's their best time deleted. Job done. 

Edited by Peat, 13 June 2022 - 10:09.

[PlatenGlass]

I think it's clear Monaco and Baku were on purpose.

Alonso at Monaco? Was that ever even shown?

[smitten]

That one is an easy on to tidy up - driver who causes the yellow/red get's their best time deleted. Job done. 

I'm not sure that's fair.  Some reds are not the drivers fault, and yellows can be out very quickly for minor excursions that don't impede anyone else.

 

However unsporting Alonso was, getting (legitimate) Red or Yellows on your hot lap is just part of the game.

[ANF]

Alonso at Monaco? Was that ever even shown?

Not in the main broadcast, no. It looked like an honest mistake to me:
https://youtu.be/AyZzCJfe3U8
https://youtu.be/Cetzz1UFmLA

[engineblock1]

Assuming it was intentional, i must say Alonso made it look more "natural" compared to Michael in Monaco '06.
Telemetry does not lie so probably they had a look and found no evidence whatsoever.

I bet few more cases like this and F1 will start to reconsider current qualifying format probably.

[smitten]

Assuming it was intentional, i must say Alonso made it look more "natural" compared to Michael in Monaco '06.
Telemetry does not lie so probably they had a look and found no evidence whatsoever.

I bet few more cases like this and F1 will start to reconsider current qualifying format probably.

So they looked at telemetry without a formal investigation, and without even a formal 'noted'?  Unlikely.

[SenorSjon]

Fits this topic as a glove: https://forums.autos...ng-rules-merged

 

With the ever growing number of slow running cars at the end of the lap, you could consider waving a yellow flag for them, discarding their previous fastest time. That would get a move on.

[prty]

Not in the main broadcast, no. It looked like an honest mistake to me:
https://youtu.be/AyZzCJfe3U8
https://youtu.be/Cetzz1UFmLA

I think it was on purpose, he said later that he got distracted changing settings on the steering wheel, which isn't the case. And that way of losing the rear doesn't look normal for Alonso. Even Lobato thought it was on purpose.

[ANF]

I think it was on purpose, he said later that he got distracted changing settings on the steering wheel, which isn't the case. And that way of losing the rear doesn't look normal for Alonso. Even Lobato thought it was on purpose.

Maybe he's just trying to find excuses for going off? If it was on purpose, why didn't he take his already sore hands off the steering wheel? And why didn't he lock up and go straight on into the Tecpro to make sure only the front wing was damaged? Instead, he started to turn into the corner before going off, so the car could have rotated as it hit the Tecpro and he could have ended up with a damaged rear suspension and a gearbox change...

 

One thing is for sure: he wasn't looking at other cars in his mirrors in Monaco like he did in Baku.

[AustinF1]

Assuming it was intentional, i must say Alonso made it look more "natural" compared to Michael in Monaco '06.
Telemetry does not lie so probably they had a look and found no evidence whatsoever.

I bet few more cases like this and F1 will start to reconsider current qualifying format probably.

They should do that anyway imho. I'm tired of all the traffic backups etc, as I'm sure many others are as well.

[w1Y]

I like the idea of a 1 or 2 run shootout in q3 but where each driver gets a clear track being the only one on track and we get the camera focused on each driver for the whole lap.

Could reduce the number that get through to q3 if time is an issue

[Muzzyf1]

Alonso underachieved on his talent due to his internal team antics. A massively talented toxic driver

Toxic in the minds of toxic people who can't handle the man.

What's toxic about the bloke at alpine when he was in McLaren ? Even his last stint in ferrari?

The man did everything right to win the title on 2 occasions at ferrari and who failed him ? Ferrari!

Honestly its childish to keep pulling out the silly toxic card

[engineblock1]

So they looked at telemetry without a formal investigation, and without even a formal 'noted'?  Unlikely.

Many times telemetry is studied after a race or session is over. I dont think stewards are obliged to issue a formal "noted" message for every thing they try to look at. Maybe i am wrong but that is my understanding.

[engineblock1]

They should do that anyway imho. I'm tired of all the traffic backups etc, as I'm sure many others are as well.

 

Unfortunately a more "relaxed" session like the 1 hour session before 2006 does not align with commercial interests of FOG. A lot of current generation of fans sees no issue with qualifying so except with minor tweaks i do not foresee any major shakeup coming to qualifying format anytime soon.

One thing that can be done which is of little help but fair in my opinion is that in the last 3 minutes of session if any driver comes to standstill in a way that warrants yellow flag, they get their fastest time deleted. This way no one sitting in relegation zone would ever think of doing that as people suggest Alonso did or MSC did in Monaco 2006.

Much like at the end of race you need to bring car to parc ferme conditions unassisted, one needs to bring car back into pits at end of Q and not cause flags in last minutes.

[Gravelngrass]

And now your weekly knee-jerk reaction: www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-drivers-back-penalties-for-triggering-flags-in-qualifying/10322120/

Edited by Gravelngrass, 14 June 2022 - 13:40.

[pup]

What's toxic about the bloke at alpine when he was in McLaren ?

Should someone tell him?

[PayasYouRace]

And now your weekly knee-jerk reaction: www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-drivers-back-penalties-for-triggering-flags-in-qualifying/10322120/

Is it knee-jerk? There have been all sorts of cases of this over the years, and the proposed solution is tried and tested in other series.

[P123]

And now your weekly knee-jerk reaction: www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-drivers-back-penalties-for-triggering-flags-in-qualifying/10322120/

Max spoke about it in Monaco.  It's probably been mentioned many times over the year specifically around Monaco time.

[SenorSjon]

They should do that anyway imho. I'm tired of all the traffic backups etc, as I'm sure many others are as well.

 

Because it goes unpunished while you screw up another lap.

 

And now your weekly knee-jerk reaction: www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-drivers-back-penalties-for-triggering-flags-in-qualifying/10322120/

 

I wish this knee-jerk came sooner. We never see this with IndyCar qualy. If a red is caused, I would like to have the clock reset to at least 4 minutes (once) to give everyone another shot for a lap. 

Yellow = fastest lap up until then deleted

Red = two fastest laps deleted and no further participation in the session.

[SenorSjon]

Max spoke about it in Monaco.  It's probably been mentioned many times over the year specifically around Monaco time.

 

He got his lap ruïned for two years in a row now. The pole man or someone on the Q2 bubble can take much more risk for his second run. If he loses, he will cause a yellow or red that will slow the others down and he wins either way. That is plain wrong.

Edited by SenorSjon, 14 June 2022 - 14:34.

[ANF]

I had another look at onboard video and radio in Baku. Alonso was told they would be marginal on time already when he returned to the pits during the red flag. On his out lap he led a train of eight other cars, of which seven could bump him out of Q1, and near the end of the out lap he came on the radio and asked his race engineer to tell him how many cars that had crossed the line in time to get a final lap in. As he exited T2 on his "flying" lap he was told that everybody had crossed the line in time. Now, watching the onboard from Albon's Williams, it looked like Albon was gaining on Alonso under braking for every corner. Remember, at just about every corner exit Alonso was looking in his mirrors to see how close Albon was... Alonso left the track at T15 and Albon never got the tow he wanted and was knocked out in P17, and when he was rolled back into the garage he said: "They were playing games from the very beginning, from the moment they left the pit lane. Anyway."

[AustinF1]

Should someone tell him?

Not gonna rehash it, but consider the environment. There was toxicity at every turn in that team. 

[FirstnameLastname]

Palmer investigates

[MikeTekRacing]

Toxic in the minds of toxic people who can't handle the man.

What's toxic about the bloke at alpine when he was in McLaren ? Even his last stint in ferrari?

The man did everything right to win the title on 2 occasions at ferrari and who failed him ? Ferrari!

Honestly its childish to keep pulling out the silly toxic card

I am not sure if you're serious or not. I'll bite that you are. 

 

Hm. Where do I start? McLaren vs Hamilton? or McLaren vs Honda? Which toxic behavior should I expand on?
Renault where he won a race through clear cheating? Or you believe he was not part of the toxic work with Flavio and he was just innocent?

 

Yes he's done right things. And yes, Ferrari failed him. But he does have responsibility for his behavior inside the teams throughout his career. 

Why do you think he's not in a great drive now? He is clearly among the best. Who does he have to blame for that?

[garoidb]

I am not sure if you're serious or not. I'll bite that you are. 

 

Hm. Where do I start? McLaren vs Hamilton? or McLaren vs Honda? Which toxic behavior should I expand on?
Renault where he won a race through clear cheating? Or you believe he was not part of the toxic work with Flavio and he was just innocent?

 

Yes he's done right things. And yes, Ferrari failed him. But he does have responsibility for his behavior inside the teams throughout his career. 

Why do you think he's not in a great drive now? He is clearly among the best. Who does he have to blame for that?

 

As to why he isn't in a great drive now, the answer is that there are really only ever one, two or just maybe three teams that fall under that category at any given time. Red Bull have Max, Ferrari have Charles and Mercedes have George. I wouldn't bet against Alpine getting fourth in the WCC so he is in a team that is just outside that group. The question for you is how come he is in a works team in F1 at all if he is so toxic? 

[AustinF1]

I am not sure if you're serious or not. I'll bite that you are. 

 

Hm. Where do I start? McLaren vs Hamilton? or McLaren vs Honda? Which toxic behavior should I expand on?
Renault where he won a race through clear cheating? Or you believe he was not part of the toxic work with Flavio and he was just innocent?

 

Yes he's done right things. And yes, Ferrari failed him. But he does have responsibility for his behavior inside the teams throughout his career. 

Why do you think he's not in a great drive now? He is clearly among the best. Who does he have to blame for that?

Well, like I said, there was toxicity in spades in the McLaren portion of the paddock in 2007, not just from Alonso. And re: McLaren Honda, it's funny that Button had plenty of negative comments about Honda's '1 step forward, 2 steps back' dance, snarky and otherwise. He even retired over Honda's utter lack of progress and what that meant for the following season's prospects - yet he has always gotten a pass for it while Alonso continues to be ripped to shreds 7 years later over a frustrated radio comment that was pretty accurate and was very likely 100% backed by the team.

 

Re: why Alonso is not in a top drive, did you imagine Merc would put him on the opposite side of the garage from Lewis? Did you think Red Bull would put him opposite Max? LOL. Of course they were never going to do that with any proven elite driver. People said he shouldn't have left Ferrari when he did, too, but what did Vettel achieve there? Nada. 

Edited by AustinF1, 14 June 2022 - 21:09.

[SophieB]

Lets keep to the topic at hand, please rather than just discussing Alonso in general.

 

Discussion by pm only, if required.

[pup]

I've actually enjoyed Alonso more these past two years than before.  He's not as fast and he knows it, but he's so friggin tenacious behind the wheel that he's going to find a way.  He's pushing the envelope - and yes it's wrong - but it's also, at the very least, interesting to watch.  

 

I've said many time here that I don't like him but can't help but respect his skills, both on and off track.  I think he'll make a good team principal one day, should he choose that path.  He'd give both Horner and Wolff a good run for their money.  

[ANF]

Palmer investigates

So I was right then, he was braking early in the corners. And apparently he was on used tyres too, saving tyres for the race and not even trying to improve on his last run? So I guess the choice was always between "enough cars didn't make it across the line, so I can finish this slow lap" and "all cars cars made it across the line, so I'll have to park it at T15"?

[Gravelngrass]

Is it knee-jerk? There have been all sorts of cases of this over the years, and the proposed solution is tried and tested in other series.

If a driver does something on purpose, of course they should penalize. But they have already been doing that and it should be pretty straightforward: check telemetry. However, penalizing someone for crashing or simply breaking down because of a problem would go against the very principle of driving fast and racing…

[PayasYouRace]

If a driver does something on purpose, of course they should penalize. But they have already been doing that and it should be pretty straightforward: check telemetry. However, penalizing someone for crashing or simply breaking down because of a problem would go against the very principle of driving fast and racing…

It works very well elsewhere. That crash or breakdown during qualifying takes opportunity away from other drivers, which is why it can be abused. Even drivers are backing the idea 

 

https://www.autospor...fying/10322129/

[Taxi]

In Monaco  Alonso was clearly pushing, it seems a genuine mistake. Baku was as blatant as it can be.: The early braking, the mirror check, the clumsy steering inputs...typical Alonso. 

[sketchy2001]

Alonso is quite vocal about the weaknesses in measures to stop unfair driving.

 

I don't see much difference between this behaviour and when he straight-lined Sochi T2.

Both pretty obvious actions but no action taken because the FIA couldn't definitely assign intent.

 

As for yellow and red flags leading to time deletions, when a driver pushes too hard and causes a flag then they should not be penalised less than drivers following.

[smitten]

Both pretty obvious actions but no action taken because the FIA couldn't definitely assign intent.

 

As for yellow and red flags leading to time deletions, when a driver pushes too hard and causes a flag then they should not be penalised less than drivers following.

Why should drivers impacted by flags during quali not be treated in exactly the same way those impacted by a flag during the race.  i.e. just accept it as sporting chance?

[sketchy2001]

Why should drivers impacted by flags during quali not be treated in exactly the same way those impacted by a flag during the race.  i.e. just accept it as sporting chance?

Why does my apple not taste the same as your orange?

 

The consequences of encountering a flag are very different in your two scenarios

Edited by sketchy2001, 16 June 2022 - 11:53.

[Gravelngrass]

It works very well elsewhere. That crash or breakdown during qualifying takes opportunity away from other drivers, which is why it can be abused. Even drivers are backing the idea

https://www.autospor...fying/10322129/

I think they can tell if something is on purpose, especially if that’s their job. However, penalizing accidents (driving on the limit) or failures (designing on the limit) goes against the very nature of auto racing.