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Yuki Tsunoda rear wing failure, Baku '22, The decision making...


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#1 ARTGP

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Posted 12 June 2022 - 23:21

In the Azerbaijan GP, Yuki Tsunoda's rear wing flap split into two around lap 35 or so. Why was everybody (the team, and race control) so slow to react? As if it was a non-issue?

 

The evidence:

 

Yuki-Tsunodas-DRS-SNAPS-azerbaijangp-f1-

 

The wing looks all out of sorts and flexible.  

 

 

Here is the amateur gaffers tape job on lap 39. Look at how badly it's wobbling as they handle it. (okay fine it's aluminum tape, but still not inspiring confidence):

Yuki-Tsunodas-Duct-Tape-DRS-Pitstop-Azer

 

 

What in the world were they thinking a) not pulling him in sooner (AT or race control) and b) letting him back out on a circuit with such massive speeds with such a shoddy repair job?

 

Have they gone mad?

 

Raikkonen '04:

 

wing-failure.gif?w=371

 

Schumacher '92:

Michael-Schumacher-loses-rear-wing-1992-

 

Raikkonen and Schumacher were lucky to have gravel traps and lots of run off....


Edited by ARTGP, 12 June 2022 - 23:22.


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#2 ARTGP

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Posted 12 June 2022 - 23:37

It was definitely an unnecessary risk. By the time it was repaired he had dropped out of the points and could no longer use DRS.

 

However, the car did another 15 laps with the repaired wing - so no matter how shoddy it looked, the fact is, the repair was sufficient to complete the race

 

Which could only be proven by completing all 15 laps. There were no guarantees and it looked extremely sketchy. A part that carries a massive aero load split into two, and the team thought it wise to tape and send him back out.

 

The car should have been parked in my opinion. A rear wing is not something you tape together and go back out at 340km/h....It could have easily been an airplane accident if the flap let go in the wrong place like in the kink leading onto the main straight.


Edited by ARTGP, 12 June 2022 - 23:39.


#3 PitViperRacing

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Posted 12 June 2022 - 23:41

If you look closely you can also see the mechanics slap some chewy and WD40 on it as well :p

#4 Jones Foyer

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 00:10

The team know how the wing functions. If the actuator fails, or detaches, the wing snaps closed- the high downforce position. If he was instructed to not use it, it would remain safely closed. I believe that tape was simply a gesture to address the meatball notification. The actual repair was not made- they just looked at it and determined it would not be an issue if it remained closed. Tape work was done to make a gesture imitating repair, the wing condition was inspected and instruction for safe use was given. It wasn’t going to fly off the pylons like raikkonen’s wing. Completely different failure. Non issue. No one protested it, everyone moved on.

Edited by Jones Foyer, 13 June 2022 - 00:18.


#5 boomn

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 00:11

I’m hesitant to judge this by appearances as inherently bad just because they used some sort of tape. Speed tape is strong enough that it is FAA approved for cracks and panel issues on jet planes. That’s probably the sort of thing that F1 teams keep on hand, not duct tape level junk

Edited by boomn, 13 June 2022 - 00:15.


#6 Muzzyf1

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 00:19

It did the job get over it

#7 Paa

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 00:28

I'm not familiar with the exact build of the wing, nor do I know the nature of the problem, what was broken etc so I might be completely wrong here....However, I did not feel at all that it was dangerous during the race, so I was perfectly fine with how it was handled.

 

We have seen the duct tape repair a lot during previous years (mostly during red flag fixes) so even that was not even surprising or strange in my book.



#8 ARTGP

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 00:33

The team know how the wing functions. If the actuator fails, or detaches, the wing snaps closed- the high downforce position. 

 

 

To be clear.  The issue is the wing split into two pieces. The actuator didn't fail. 

 

Do you not see what is wrong in this picture?

 

 

 

 

 

How do you go from this:

Image-13.jpg

 

To this:

Image-12.jpg

 

 

 

The wing  has completely failed. It has been fractured into two pieces. 


Edited by ARTGP, 13 June 2022 - 00:43.


#9 boomn

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 01:24

It hasn’t completely failed because it still attached to the car and not even wildly flapping around at those speeds. And both sides still appear to be solidly attached along whatever the wing pivots on at the front

#10 MrSarcastic

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 01:44

It was surprising how flexible the wing looked as they were taping it. It obviously passed the load test, though. The repair looked worse then it was. As long as he didn't try to use DRS the team judged it safe.

#11 New Britain

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 03:03

It was surprising how flexible the wing looked as they were taping it. It obviously passed the load test, though. The repair looked worse then it was. As long as he didn't try to use DRS the team judged it safe.

Yes, the team judged it safe - or, perhaps more accurately, the team thought it was worth the risk. Should the team, rather than the regulators, be the ones making that decision?



#12 boomn

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 03:08

Yes, the team judged it safe - or, perhaps more accurately, the team thought it was worth the risk. Should the team, rather than the regulators, be the ones making that decision?

Did the stewards come down to his pit stop to help check and provide approval? Did they give Tsunoda another flag after the repair stop? Or did they trust the mechanics who build and maintain the car to make a more informed decision?

#13 ARTGP

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 03:27

Did the stewards come down to his pit stop to help check and provide approval? Did they give Tsunoda another flag after the repair stop? Or did they trust the mechanics who build and maintain the car to make a more informed decision?

 

I think the question is no one seemed to know what was going on including race control and I doubt there's a process for this.  RW flap is quite an important part that carries a high load. Just a few weeks ago, RB couldn't even get their flap to open, the loads were so high. 

 

Tsunoda's wing was only noted as being damaged by the commentators on the lap 36 replay video and he received the black and orange on lap 38, but the wing was actually damaged a few laps before lap 36 even. I caught a glimpse of it a couple laps prior when they showed his onboard in passing and it looked strange but I didn't think much of it at the time because such a failure was not in the realm of my imagination. Then they showed him on lap 36 when the flap opened only on 1 side and then I realized why the wing looked strange a few laps prior. It had been snapped in half. 


Edited by ARTGP, 13 June 2022 - 03:37.


#14 Jones Foyer

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 04:28

To be clear. The issue is the wing split into two pieces. The actuator didn't fail.

Do you not see what is wrong in this picture?





How do you go from this:
Image-13.jpg

To this:
Image-12.jpg



The wing has completely failed. It has been fractured into two pieces.

as I said, if DRS isn’t engaged, the wing is designed to fall back into full downforce. The failure meant that one side opened up under DRS while the other stayed closed. If DRS wasn’t used, apparently the team could tell it was a non issue. Stewards surely had a look or got an explanation and saw no issue with the “fix.” No one seems to be concerned with it. If it was completely failed, tape wouldn’t have fixed it. They didn’t need to do much more than tell Tsunoda not to use it.

Edited by Jones Foyer, 13 June 2022 - 04:29.


#15 WelshSwan

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 04:37

Which could only be proven by completing all 15 laps. There were no guarantees and it looked extremely sketchy. A part that carries a massive aero load split into two, and the team thought it wise to tape and send him back out.

 

The car should have been parked in my opinion. A rear wing is not something you tape together and go back out at 340km/h....It could have easily been an airplane accident if the flap let go in the wrong place like in the kink leading onto the main straight.

 

It was a very risky move, my heart was in my mouth watching him down the straight as if the wing had failed there he would have had one hell of a smash. When you think about it, it made no sense as it's not as if he was still in the points and it's not as if he had any chance of being able to fight his way back into the points with no DRS. Even if a SC had happened he would have been a sitting duck for others to overtake.



#16 warp

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 04:39

They didn’t need to do much more than tell Tsunoda not to use it.

 

This... hindsight is always 20/20 but yes, all they needed was to tell Yuki not to use it and disable it from pitwall (if at all possible).

 

But as WelshSwan mentions, as soon as he was out of the points it would have been better to just retire him and save the components for another day.



#17 boomn

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 04:48

Then again, it’s a tight street circuit and there’s always some decent chance of cars ahead crashing out and putting him back in the points

#18 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:10

 

 

 

 

The wing looks all out of sorts and flexible.  

 

 

Here is the amateur gaffers tape job on lap 39. Look at how badly it's wobbling as they handle it. (okay fine it's aluminum tape, but still not inspiring confidence):

Yuki-Tsunodas-Duct-Tape-DRS-Pitstop-Azer

 

 

What in the world were they thinking a) not pulling him in sooner (AT or race control) and b) letting him back out on a circuit with such massive speeds with such a shoddy repair job?

 

Have they gone mad?

That type of aluminium tape is extremely strong. I’ve used it for temporary aviation repairs in the past. I hope you’ll agree that flight safety is an order of magnitude higher than F1 safety. A lot more can go wrong.

 

Of course the wing is going to look out of sorts and flexible if it was split down the middle. It didn’t have anything holding it in place anymore. I have full confidence in the repair job they did for the remainder of the race. Plus, they put a limitation in the form of not allowing Yuki to use DRS any longer.

 

It might not have looked pretty, but it did the job.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:15

To be clear.  The issue is the wing split into two pieces. The actuator didn't fail. 

 

Do you not see what is wrong in this picture?

 

 

 

 

 

How do you go from this:

Image-13.jpg

 

To this:

Image-12.jpg

 

 

 

The wing  has completely failed. It has been fractured into two pieces. 

Indeed. How did go from a to b? What caused the failure? Was it purely a failure under load? If so, was there a manufacturing process problem in that flap in particular?  Or was it broken by debris? Why did this happen in the race in Baku but never before in this season? Stuff for the team to look into.



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#20 A3

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:36



To be clear.  The issue is the wing split into two pieces. The actuator didn't fail. 

 

Do you not see what is wrong in this picture?

 

 

 

 

 

How do you go from this:

Image-13.jpg

 

To this:

Image-12.jpg

 

 

 

The wing  has completely failed. It has been fractured into two pieces. 

 

 

Sorry, the wing has failed? How do you know? As far as we know, only the DRS flap broke in two, the wing was in one piece. Big difference. 



#21 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:39

I don’t get the drama. It looked like his drs was not opening fully

#22 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:45

I don’t get the drama. It looked like his drs was not opening fully


The flap broke in half, which is why only one side opened when the DRS was activated.

They did a temporary repair and told him not to use DRS, as that could undo the repair.

Not that dramatic, but not as mundane as a simple DRS failure either.

#23 Heyli

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:48

The flap broke in half, which is why only one side opened when the DRS was activated.

They did a temporary repair and told him not to use DRS, as that could undo the repair.

Not that dramatic, but not as mundane as a simple DRS failure either.

I do wonder why they told Verstappen to no longer use his DRS though. Gasly had no problem using his. Was it just a coincidence, RB being extremely cautious or is there a possible logical explanation?

 

Couldnt find any interview afterwards where somebody asked RB about that. Was a bit odd. 



#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:51

I do wonder why they told Verstappen to no longer use his DRS though. Gasly had no problem using his. Was it just a coincidence, RB being extremely cautious or is there a possible logical explanation?

Couldnt find any interview afterwards where somebody asked RB about that. Was a bit odd.


Haven’t Red Bull Racing been having issues with their wing flap all season?

How much sharing is going on between the two teams?

#25 Heyli

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:55

Haven’t Red Bull Racing been having issues with their wing flap all season?

How much sharing is going on between the two teams?

Yes, they have, but that seemed to have a different issue though (at least as in how the issue was displaying itself).

 

That was indeed also the question that popped in my head... None of the journalists seem to care about it though, or at least I couldnt find anything on it.



#26 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:56

I do wonder why they told Verstappen to no longer use his DRS though. Gasly had no problem using his. Was it just a coincidence, RB being extremely cautious or is there a possible logical explanation?

Couldnt find any interview afterwards where somebody asked RB about that. Was a bit odd.

That part failed several times already
They had a huge pace advantage and no need to bring any issues home

#27 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:57

The flap broke in half, which is why only one side opened when the DRS was activated.

They did a temporary repair and told him not to use DRS, as that could undo the repair.

Not that dramatic, but not as mundane as a simple DRS failure either.

It s actually less dramatic that a DRS failure as it was half a DRS failure.

#28 chrcol

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 06:58

I think the question is no one seemed to know what was going on including race control and I doubt there's a process for this.  RW flap is quite an important part that carries a high load. Just a few weeks ago, RB couldn't even get their flap to open, the loads were so high. 

 

Tsunoda's wing was only noted as being damaged by the commentators on the lap 36 replay video and he received the black and orange on lap 38, but the wing was actually damaged a few laps before lap 36 even. I caught a glimpse of it a couple laps prior when they showed his onboard in passing and it looked strange but I didn't think much of it at the time because such a failure was not in the realm of my imagination. Then they showed him on lap 36 when the flap opened only on 1 side and then I realized why the wing looked strange a few laps prior. It had been snapped in half. 

Well the same issues as always, they not pro actively monitoring onboards, but seem to instead wait for something like a TV presenter or TV director to notice and then be reactionary instead, the officiating is stone age.



#29 RedRabbit

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:16

I don't think the black and orange flag was even necessary, actually. A simple instruction to disable DRS for Yuki to the team would have been fine, and I thought this watching the race.

The commentators as usual were over the top hysterical about it. Cars have driven a number of laps with broken parts before, it wasn't even structural.

#30 PlatenGlass

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:18

I wasn't sure why a missing piece of rear wing made the rest of the wing dangerous. Reading these posts, I'm still not sure.

#31 RA2

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:18

Interesting how the flap broke.

 

There must be metal structural piece at the top end of the flap connected to the endplates which was probably intact. 

 

Half the flap was still able to open and pivot while the other was still intact



#32 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:39

It s actually less dramatic that a DRS failure as it was half a DRS failure.


It wasn’t a DRS failure. It was a wing failure. Specifically, the flap failed. We don’t know why yet.

#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:41

Yes, they have, but that seemed to have a different issue though (at least as in how the issue was displaying itself).

That was indeed also the question that popped in my head... None of the journalists seem to care about it though, or at least I couldnt find anything on it.


I wouldn’t have thought to look into it. RBR have a known issue. AT had a different failure.

#34 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:42

I don't think the black and orange flag was even necessary, actually. A simple instruction to disable DRS for Yuki to the team would have been fine, and I thought this watching the race.

The commentators as usual were over the top hysterical about it. Cars have driven a number of laps with broken parts before, it wasn't even structural.


This was exactly why the meatball flag exists. It was unknown if the flap would stay in place, and could have been a danger to Yuki or to others.

#35 Heyli

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 07:43

I wouldn’t have thought to look into it. RBR have a known issue. AT had a different failure.

But a simple question as to why they asked Max to no longer use DRS surely would have been possible... :)

 

As said, it's easily possible that it's a coincidence, but the timing was just a bit odd. 



#36 Beri

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 08:15

I think this thread is, at least some members are, way too heated up to be anything but objective.

Fact is that the "gaffer tape" held on and made Yuki finish the race.
Fact is that no team will send out their driver if they know the driver will have a high possibility to wreck the car due to a failure that the team just fixed.
Fact is that the FIA will not investigate the whole happening and thus the explanation of the team given to the FIA was accordingly to what the FIA expected as a fix.

Then there is the issue of the failure itself; a DRS actuated rear wing simply is a moveable part that can break. It's as easy as that. That it split in the middle could very simply be the issue of a wing already being used too many sessions and that it wore out. Also an object could have hit the rear wing, causing it to break.

I really do not understand all the fuss.

#37 SenorSjon

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 08:32

They have had issues on Friday with the wing as in other races as well. With half a second/lap margin on Perez, it was pointless to risk it.



#38 BRG

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 08:59

It did the job get over it

Exactly.  The 'nanny state' mentality on this forum is rather over the top.  No kittens or puppies were  put in danger.

 

That was indeed also the question that popped in my head... None of the journalists seem to care about it though, or at least I couldnt find anything on it.

The Ch4 team immediately seized on that point although they quickly moved on.  Probably worried that they might have to interview Horner yet again....



#39 1player

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 09:11

I think this thread is, at least some members are, way too heated up to be anything but objective.

Fact is that the "gaffer tape" held on and made Yuki finish the race.
Fact is that no team will send out their driver if they know the driver will have a high possibility to wreck the car due to a failure that the team just fixed.
Fact is that the FIA will not investigate the whole happening and thus the explanation of the team given to the FIA was accordingly to what the FIA expected as a fix.

Then there is the issue of the failure itself; a DRS actuated rear wing simply is a moveable part that can break. It's as easy as that. That it split in the middle could very simply be the issue of a wing already being used too many sessions and that it wore out. Also an object could have hit the rear wing, causing it to break.

I really do not understand all the fuss.


Only that their used gaffer tape is a fact. That the team wouldn't endanger a driver and the FIA would investigate if there were a problem are not fact, we just hope it might be the case.

I don't have a particular opinion on the matter but it's not a stretch to imagine a team taking unnecessary risks to get more money (as in, points in the championship) and the FIA not doing their job wouldn't be a surprise.

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#40 Capeta

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 09:11

The team know how the wing functions. If the actuator fails, or detaches, the wing snaps closed- the high downforce position. If he was instructed to not use it, it would remain safely closed. I believe that tape was simply a gesture to address the meatball notification. The actual repair was not made- they just looked at it and determined it would not be an issue if it remained closed. Tape work was done to make a gesture imitating repair, the wing condition was inspected and instruction for safe use was given. It wasn’t going to fly off the pylons like raikkonen’s wing. Completely different failure. Non issue. No one protested it, everyone moved on.

I completely agree with that, the pitstop and the tape was unnecessary, showing how much the FIA is clueless.



#41 Dolph

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 09:50

But a simple question as to why they asked Max to no longer use DRS surely would have been possible... :)

As said, it's easily possible that it's a coincidence, but the timing was just a bit odd.


Simple.

The AT flap failed. Meaning, there is a chance it was due to track specifics.

The flap mechanism is a weak point on the RB. If anybodys is prone to failing, its theirs. Hence, lets play it safe.

Theres nit a whole lot more to it

#42 Dolph

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 09:55

I completely agree with that, the pitstop and the tape was unnecessary, showing how much the FIA is clueless.


I disagree. There was no way to be 100% certain to the extent of the failure. Yes, the flap was split in half, the mechanism broke, but has the overload on the system caused other damage? Could other parts fall off like parts of the actuator? You cant asess that from one camera angle.

#43 Gareth

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 11:06

I was just pleased to discover that my DIY is F1 standard.

#44 Clrnc

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 11:19

It did the job. I trust the engineers more than forum members in this thread. 

 

Yuki was extremely unlucky though. Another very good race. 

 

He has matured this year. 



#45 Eyeshield

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 11:20

the wing looks super bendy, why don't they mandate it's made solid?



#46 William Hunt

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 12:14

It was very harsh, he would have finished 6th


Edited by William Hunt, 13 June 2022 - 12:39.


#47 BRG

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 12:44

Back in 2005, Kimi Raikkonen raced on and on at the Nurburgring even though everyone - him, the team, the spectators, even the FIA - could see that the front suspension was breaking and a crash was inevitable when it finally failed.  No meatball flag, all the Kimistas cheering him on as the fearless super-hero etc etc. and very few of us thinking that it showed that Kimi was a bear of very little brain.  And then he crashed, fortunately without damaging himself or anyone else.

 

How times change.  A little broken wing flap and the whole health and safety balloon goes up.  Yuki is forced to stop for a temporary fix and even then the massed Cassandras of the internet are crying that it is too dangerous and shouldn't be allowed.  :(


Edited by BRG, 13 June 2022 - 12:45.


#48 New Britain

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 13:10

Did the stewards come down to his pit stop to help check and provide approval? Did they give Tsunoda another flag after the repair stop? Or did they trust the mechanics who build and maintain the car to make a more informed decision?

You mean the way that they just take the mechanics' word for it that the car will pass the FIA crash tests? 

To answer your first question, as Tsunoda was leaving the box after the flap had been taped up, one of the Sky announcers (probably Kravitz) said that Jo Bauer (FIA Technical Delegate) was hurrying down to the AT pits to find out what was going on.



#49 Widefoot2

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 13:17

Back in 2005, Kimi Raikkonen raced on and on at the Nurburgring even though everyone - him, the team, the spectators, even the FIA - could see that the front suspension was breaking and a crash was inevitable when it finally failed.  No meatball flag, all the Kimistas cheering him on as the fearless super-hero etc etc. and very few of us thinking that it showed that Kimi was a bear of very little brain

This is well stated, given that he did like to have a Pooh before the race.



#50 RedRabbit

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 13:26

This was exactly why the meatball flag exists. It was unknown if the flap would stay in place, and could have been a danger to Yuki or to others.

It was a flap of a rear wing that failed into the default "safe" position. The flag was a complete over reaction.

By that same standard, Verstappen reporting on the radio to the team that something felt as if it had broken off his brake pedal should also get the same flag, surely?

The wing looked more intact than plenty of other broken bits of floor or front wing.

Edited by RedRabbit, 13 June 2022 - 13:26.