1022 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

At no point did Max have to make any sort of defensive move. Sainz was close but never close enough to actually challenge. Leclerc holding Max off in Bahrain was real pressure and fight. This one always felt like Max would never be losing a place unless he made an error. Top drivers rarely make errors like this. He's a great driver and had a great race, but it's being oversold.

 

As a Max fan I felt the RB's are slightly fatser - enough to stay ahead of Ferrari without DRS - the same was said about the Alpine cars during this race vs many of their opponents. I don't think it has to do much with Sainz' ability vs CL - as has been mentioned. And if Sainz got around Max, I think Max would have got him back for 1st before race end.

 

This is not to take anything from Max... Like Schumacher/Ferrari - he has a solid team that built a good car and make great strategic decisions and collectively, they've earned it. What's nuts is that they (engineers/team) have managed to do this with an up-tuned Honda engine. So kudos to the entire staff because IMO - this is a classic team effort in which nothing would be accomplished if they weren't all working so well together.

[Claudius]

Was George not proving it in Spain?

Didn’t Max have a problem with his DRS in Spain?
Nevertheless it was a great drive by Russell

[aportinga]

They are exceling at different areas due to the cars competitiveness. I've seen Leclerc defend in a similair way against Hamilton in Monza 19. But George has yet to prove it. I'm sure he will in time but it's not a given.

 

I was looking for this during this race and saw it coming before Merc (typically) messed up and brought GR in for M tires.

 

Just a stupid move IMO.

[aportinga]

Drivers being close doesn't mean threat. He couldn't make a mistake but he wasn't being hounded. Sainz basically just followed him round. Had Max had to make any defensive moves at any point it might have felt different. After the first couple of laps it was pretty clear that Sainz was only getting past if Max made a mistake, but he wasn't even pressuring him into one.

 

Even so there have been plenty of times a leading driver lost pace or went off because they are racing in their rear view. MV was a cool customer IMO and stayed focus. Does that make him the GOAT? Nope - just a solid race drive.

[aportinga]

Odd comment from F1TV about Tsunoda crash...

 

Commentator mentioned Gerhard Berger and Coulthard as similar screw ups. I thought Berger's issue was mechanical?

 

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[GentlemanDriver091]

These guys trying to oversell what Verstappen is doing this year are comical as hell. What is next? Will they say he is better than Hamilton?

Would that be a long shot? Tbh the makes it a bit a biased opinion. No driver is competing on a higher level then Max this season, not even Leclerc, let alone Hamilton.

My top 3 for this season would be Verstappen, Leclerc and Russel.

[ANF]

Odd comment from F1TV about Tsunoda crash...
 
Commentator mentioned Gerhard Berger and Coulthard as similar screw ups. I thought Berger's issue was mechanical?
 
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Here's the official explanation of Berger's off at Estoril in 1993 (you can see him hitting a bump on the onboard video – but I think the observers in the second paragraph were hallucinating) :
 

While one Ferrari was starring, the other was not, and the popular Berger’s tale of recent woe continued in alarming style. He delayed his pit stop as long as he dared, in an attempt to make it through on only two sets of Goodyears, but when he resumed disaster very nearly struck. According to Ferrari, he was simply the victim of ‘an unlucky combination of circumstances’. By that it meant that he had reached a speed at the end of the pit road at which its active ride system automatically raises the nose of the car. This is known as the ‘low-drag’ mode for motoring down the straights. The car generates less downforce and is thus faster. This, said Ferrari, then combined with a nasty bump at the end of the pits, which literally threw the Ferrari out of control. It was thus, it insisted, neither a driver error nor a systems failure.

Be that as it may, several observers reported that the right rear wheel was flopping about, with visible positive camber, long before Berger shot at 90 degrees to the left, right across the paths of the duelling Warwick and Lehto, before crashing hard into the Armco and bouncing down to instant retirement at the end of the straight.

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[Jones Foyer]

These guys trying to oversell what Verstappen is doing this year are comical as hell. What is next? Will they say he is better than Hamilton? 

 

At no point in the last race was there any doubt Sainz was going to do anything, even though it seemed like he had the faster car in the end.

 

Every world champion is a great driver in a great car. Hamilton was fortunate to have the combination of both over the years, but you would have to be pretty closed-minded to think that there isn't someone who could potentially be better than Lewis at some point. This year, Max is the great driver in the great car. We can't tell who is better as the cars are so different, so it's always a spirited discussion that will never have any clear resolution. To say it's "comical as hell" to think it's possible anyone could possible challenge Lewis's greatness is actually, comical as hell. This year, I'm not even sure Lewis is proving clearly to be the best driver on his own team. (there's a separate thread for that, sorry.)

Edited by Jones Foyer, 21 June 2022 - 18:06.

[Collombin]

I think the reference was more about their entire careers to date - a year or two of Max being top dog is not enough to warrant being considered better than Lewis yet. You don't know if his form can be maintained, whether a new challenger might emerge etc. Max is younger and hungrier whilst Lewis is likely past his peak with nothing left to prove.

Senna was better than Prost in 1988, but few were ready to proclaim him the better driver overall at that stage. He needed to maintain that level for a few more years, and that's what he did. Maybe Max will too, but don't start extrapolating or assuming things before they happen. Too many have shone brightly before fading away.

[aportinga]

Would that be a long shot? Tbh the makes it a bit a biased opinion. No driver is competing on a higher level then Max this season, not even Leclerc, let alone Hamilton.

My top 3 for this season would be Verstappen, Leclerc and Russel.

 

This is true and moreso... In ten years if Max has 9 and Lewis has 7, I would imagine that all the race wins and poles would come along with that making Max the GOAT and not LH.

 

Not saying that will happen but I'm also not saying it won't. 

 

The real question (if it does happen) will be if Max gets to coast on 3-4 World titles based on the domination of his ride. So far he and the team have had to work to get it right.

[aportinga]

Here's the official explanation of Berger's off at Estoril in 1993 (you can see him hitting a bump on the onboard video – but I think the observers in the second paragraph were hallucinating) :
 

 

Sounds like the Ferrari I know. Always thought it would be hard for Berger to make such a mistake.

[aportinga]

I think the reference was more about their entire careers to date - a year or two of Max being top dog is not enough to warrant being considered better than Lewis yet. You don't know if his form can be maintained, whether a new challenger might emerge etc. Max is younger and hungrier whilst Lewis is likely past his peak with nothing left to prove.

Senna was better than Prost in 1988, but few were ready to proclaim him the better driver overall at that stage. He needed to maintain that level for a few more years, and that's what he did. Maybe Max will too, but don't start extrapolating or assuming things before they happen. Too many have shone brightly before fading away.

 

I agree with this 100% and would add that what makes a driver great is what they do with a bad car and because of that I'll always reference Schumacher of being an incredible asset and driver for any team - regardless of where they are on the grid. Conversely look at Villenueve and even Hill as examples of drivers who IMO could not manage well unless they had a car that was suited to them.

[Nemo1965]

I am too am curious how long Verstappens career - and form will be. Until now he is Un-Dutch-like in his tenacious quality. There have been great Dutch sportsmen and women... Johan Cruijff, Richard Krajicek, to name two. But boy, were they fickle. So often they would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - often through their own faults or stupidity. Max is just relentless as a German. Sorry for the ethnic prejudices! 

 

Verstappen junior until now shows he can be just as top-Dog as Hamilton, and in a less dominant car, no less. (I think Hamiltons first year in F1 can never be surpassed, by the way). But you never know how long it is going to last...

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 June 2022 - 19:55.

[aportinga]

I am too am curious how long Verstappens career - and form will be. Until now he is Un-Dutch-like in his tenacious quality. There have been great Dutch sportsmen and women... Johan Cruijff, Richard Krajicek, to name two. But boy, were they fickle. So often they would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - often through their own faults or stupidity. Max is just relentless as a German. Sorry for the ethnic prejudices! 

 

Verstappen junior until now shows he can be just as top-Dog as Hamilton, and in a less dominant car, no less. (I think Hamiltons first year in F1 can never be surpassed, by the way). But you never know how long it is going to last...

 

Agreed!

[zanquis]

Listen, this is a murky subject for me... so bear with me. If the pit limiter is 49.7mph or 80 km per hour... it does not matter if you are driving on the straight or in corner... the driver can floor the pedal and the speed is 80 k per hour. On the slowest section, in a chicane, or on the straight. Although... if the pit-limiter is said to the revs that would mean that, say, that 5000 RPM in a corner does not mean the same as on the straight. But THAT can't be correct, because penalties for speeding in the pit are determined not on the revs of the car but on the speed... what if a Mercedes-engine revs higher than the Ferrari? Or if we are on sea-level or on a higher ground? That would mean that every team, every race, would have to test the pit-limiter per day, per hour, per atmospheric pressure reigning weather! That would mean 60 infringements of pit-limit speeds at every first free practice sessions...

So... my estimation is that the pit-limiter per car works on the speed of the car, not on the revs.

Anyway, it is not important, I believe the current system is the least bad solution, I think I understand it now, but I still have trouble how drivers could monitor their deltas...truthfully and to the spirit of the rules. They are all scoundrels, these boys...

The problem is, how much speed they sacrifice if they drive on speed limiter. On the straigh instead of 300kph they drive 80kph, loss 220kph. Some of the slowest corners of F1 are below 80kph, so no speed lost.

Which would mean that if you are unlucky and speed limiters needs to gets activated when you coming on the straight, compared to the guy who just left you would lose a lot of time.

Second all F1 engines have the same rev limit. Difference is the gears they using which fixed for the season. But speed limit works on speed anyway.

[BoDarvelle]

Second all F1 engines have the same rev limit. Difference is the gears they using which fixed for the season. But speed limit works on speed anyway.

 

None of them run anywhere near the rev limit due to fuel rate limits.

[vorda22]

Verstappen and RB are clearly the best pair on the grid this season - full stop.

 

no one is denying this...

[Hutton]

The way this season is going I wouldn't be surprised to see Verstappen win more than 15 races, the car is phenomenal come race day.

[shure]

The way this season is going I wouldn't be surprised to see Verstappen win more than 15 races, the car is phenomenal come race day.

Max is certainly capable of it if he gets the opportunity.  He's had some luck too this year with Ferrari doing their best to sabotage their own challenge, to be fair, but he can't expect that state of affairs to continue indefinitely

[Nemo1965]

Last post on the topic whether Max had it easy or hard in Montreal. I think that not many non-Dutch people get the joke, though it has translated captions. Max trolling his father with ironic humour.

 

For me the case is settled, anyway!

[Laptom]

this type of battle is close:

https://www.youtube....h?v=AnxUu36-uYw

 

What Sainz was doing was zooming in and out Max's rear camera...

 

To be fair, Sainz was multiple closer to Max than this example. Also this example is 15 years old and a total different area dynamic class of cars. 

But you are right, these are good battles

[Anderis]

this type of battle is close:

https://www.youtube....h?v=AnxUu36-uYw

 

What Sainz was doing was zooming in and out Max's rear camera...

LOL, track limits were only a suggestion those days, it seems.

[TheJag]

As a Max fan I felt the RB's are slightly fatser - enough to stay ahead of Ferrari without DRS - the same was said about the Alpine cars during this race vs many of their opponents. I don't think it has to do much with Sainz' ability vs CL - as has been mentioned. And if Sainz got around Max, I think Max would have got him back for 1st before race end.

 

This is not to take anything from Max... Like Schumacher/Ferrari - he has a solid team that built a good car and make great strategic decisions and collectively, they've earned it. What's nuts is that they (engineers/team) have managed to do this with an up-tuned Honda engine. So kudos to the entire staff because IMO - this is a classic team effort in which nothing would be accomplished if they weren't all working so well together.

 

The RB needs to lose weight, that's for sure 

But I don't see how your car is faster if you're a faster drive than the guy behind, yet you can't pull a gap in clean air on the same tyres, and your tyres are dropping off faster (so no pace managing to prevent an undercut).

Edited by TheJag, 24 June 2022 - 13:11.