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Magnussen Meatball flag, Canada 2022 [split]


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#1 Bleu

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 20:15

Magnussen not happy with the meatball flag call.



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#2 ANF

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 20:22

Magnussen not happy with the meatball flag call.

I thought it was a strange call. Unless the endplate was about to fall off, but from what I saw it didn't look like it.

#3 milestone 11

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 20:59

I thought it was a strange call. Unless the endplate was about to fall off, but from what I saw it didn't look like it.

Alpine engineered that. Strange team with their suspect tactics.

#4 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:01

I thought it was a strange call. Unless the endplate was about to fall off, but from what I saw it didn't look like it.

It was a good call, the sort of thing race control should be doing whenever a car has bodywork flapping around. Sets a good example to the motorsport world.



#5 Frood

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:04

It was a good call, the sort of thing race control should be doing whenever a car has bodywork flapping around. Sets a good example to the motorsport world.


Yes, I'm finally happy that F1/the race directors are taking the meatball flag seriously after seemingly ignoring it for a number of years. I remember a few years ago now - was it Kimi at Magny-Cours? - where a car was circulating with the exhaust hanging off which was an accident waiting to happen, and I was surprised they never did anything about it.

#6 SophieB

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:12

I was surprised by it, not saying they shouldn’t have done it but there doesn’t seem to be consistency on it.



#7 FLB

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:14

I was surprised by it, not saying they shouldn’t have done it but there doesn’t seem to be consistency on it.

Which is another illustration of the urgency to have a single Race Director and permanent stewards.



#8 Disgrace

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:15

Though this wasn't a meatball flag.

 

image-mercedes-reveals-extent-of-hamilto

 

Which doesn't strike me as at all consistent. I don't think either warranted it, for what it's worth.



#9 ARTGP

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:19

Honestly, compared to the jerry rigged wing flap that Tsunoda had last time out, this was nothing. But if we are going to do this, PLEASE for the love of god be consistent...


Edited by ARTGP, 19 June 2022 - 21:20.


#10 Disgrace

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:20

It was a good call, the sort of thing race control should be doing whenever a car has bodywork flapping around. Sets a good example to the motorsport world.

 

If the front wing is about to go under the car, it's absolutely warranted. But the endplate is hardly a structural element. I thought it was overkill.



#11 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:21

As I wrote somewhere else, I think they are clamping down so we do not get a piece falling off and having to bring a safety car out, shame happened to Magnussen, I think it was the right thing to do, presuming this is how they will act rest of season.



#12 TheFish

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:22

Another example of zero consistency. If this is a line in the sand then great, but I expect more inconsistency tbh.

#13 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:26

I think it was excessive.  Given how the meatball flag is a death penalty to your race, you really need to use it sparingly.  You're also setting yourself up for a situation where you're deciding the championship, in case it's one of the championship leaders who's having a loose endplate, and either a call or a non-call will be an arbitrary influence on the championship.



#14 Gareth

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 21:43

It felt odd vs previous situations. I think on balance I’d prefer they’d have let him keep going. I don’t think he was going to cause any great danger on track, even had that end plate come off.

If they are going to call that, though, they need to always call that.

#15 PistolPete

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 22:04

It felt odd vs previous situations. I think on balance I’d prefer they’d have let him keep going. I don’t think he was going to cause any great danger on track, even had that end plate come off.

If they are going to call that, though, they need to always call that.

 

Doubt they will.. these type of things will be driver dependent.



#16 Myrvold

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 22:22

Consdering  these kinds of parts and tyres don't really go well together, I can see why they want to get rid of the chance of flying off. So that's fine. However, just like everything the Amateurs does these days, they need to do it consistently.



#17 ANF

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 22:35

Though this wasn't a meatball flag.
 
image-mercedes-reveals-extent-of-hamilto
 
Which doesn't strike me as at all consistent. I don't think either warranted it, for what it's worth.

At least that looks like damage that would cause a considerable loss of downforce.

#18 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 23:08

Though this wasn't a meatball flag.

 

image-mercedes-reveals-extent-of-hamilto

 

Which doesn't strike me as at all consistent. I don't think either warranted it, for what it's worth.

How long was Lewis lapping with his car in that state?



#19 Bliman

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Posted 19 June 2022 - 23:09

What would have happened if the piece would have fell off? Because they didn't give him the flag immediately. So it would have been no problem if the piece would have fallen off the laps before the flag?

Also, how should I interpret it. Let's say in the future someone who has a piece of that hanging and hits the kerb extra hard to get rid of it. Will he get a penalty then. Or with the piece he doesn't slow down and because of that, it falls off. That would be all ok?

I think this sort of thing can only work if the flag is given immediately and you have to slow down.

I don't know it is a weird ambiguous rule.



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#20 Myrvold

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 00:29

What would have happened if the piece would have fell off? Because they didn't give him the flag immediately. So it would have been no problem if the piece would have fallen off the laps before the flag?

Also, how should I interpret it. Let's say in the future someone who has a piece of that hanging and hits the kerb extra hard to get rid of it. Will he get a penalty then. Or with the piece he doesn't slow down and because of that, it falls off. That would be all ok?

I think this sort of thing can only work if the flag is given immediately and you have to slow down.

I don't know it is a weird ambiguous rule.

 

Bolded: Yes, you get away. I cannot find the clip now, but IIRC in BTCC there was a guy intentionally getting a hanging part off the car to avoid a black and orange flag. The flag is for something that must be fixed due to a potential danger, so it's logical if the part is off, and it's no major impact on the car, there is no reason to give the flag to the driver.

If the car is in any way shape or form causing some kind of danger to the driver, other drivers, marshalls or spectators, then the black and orange flag is shown, if not, it's not. It's not weird or ambiguous, it can however be slightly unfair.



#21 Bliman

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 00:32

Bolded: Yes, you get away. I cannot find the clip now, but IIRC in BTCC there was a guy intentionally getting a hanging part off the car to avoid a black and orange flag. The flag is for something that must be fixed due to a potential danger, so it's logical if the part is off, and it's no major impact on the car, there is no reason to give the flag to the driver.

If the car is in any way shape or form causing some kind of danger to the driver, other drivers, marshalls or spectators, then the black and orange flag is shown, if not, it's not. It's not weird or ambiguous, it can however be slightly unfair.

Is that not weird?  You can break off the piece (that is hanging loose) intentionally by going hard over the kerb and that way endanger other drivers and more. But that is just fine. How does that not present a danger?



#22 Myrvold

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:00

Is that not weird?  You can break off the piece (that is hanging loose) intentionally by going hard over the kerb and that way endanger other drivers and more. But that is just fine. How does that not present a danger?

 

That is not weird, no. I know this is going to sound very black and white. But the black and orange flag is solely to call in a car that may present a danger. If you have gotten rid of it, your car does not present a danger anymore.

 

I am then sure you surely can argue something about dangerous driving if you, with full intention to do so, rip a part of your car. However, that's a completely different subject.

 

If a car have lost 10% of a wing, but the wing is structurally intact, then it does not present a danger. If the same 10% is hanging loose, and car be lost and thrown into another car, people and so one, then that is a danger. It is actually quite straight forward.



#23 ARTGP

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:06

Though this wasn't a meatball flag.

 

image-mercedes-reveals-extent-of-hamilto

 

Which doesn't strike me as at all consistent. I don't think either warranted it, for what it's worth.

 

 

How long was Lewis lapping with his car in that state?

 

 

From what I understand, Lewis's front wing was damaged on lap 18/19 due to a collision with Ocon.  His front wing was not replaced until the red flag for Mick Schumacher's crash on lap 27.  So safe to say, it was completely ignored.  Definetely an inconsistent ruling compared to how Tsunoda and Magnussen were treated in Baku and Canada. 


Edited by ARTGP, 20 June 2022 - 01:08.


#24 Bliman

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:07

That is not weird, no. I know this is going to sound very black and white. But the black and orange flag is solely to call in a car that may present a danger. If you have gotten rid of it, your car does not present a danger anymore.

 

I am then sure you surely can argue something about dangerous driving if you, with full intention to do so, rip a part of your car. However, that's a completely different subject.

 

If a car have lost 10% of a wing, but the wing is structurally intact, then it does not present a danger. If the same 10% is hanging loose, and car be lost and thrown into another car, people and so one, then that is a danger. It is actually quite straight forward.

Ok. To me it is weird that if you intentionally get rid of a loose piece you are fine although you endanger drivers because you don't know where the piece is going to land. But yeah.



#25 MortenF1

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:11

Meatball flag?
I’ve never heard that expression for the “technical “ flag.

Edited by MortenF1, 20 June 2022 - 01:12.


#26 Myrvold

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:28

Ok. To me it is weird that if you intentionally get rid of a loose piece you are fine although you endanger drivers because you don't know where the piece is going to land. But yeah.

 

Read what the flag is for. Then it's not weird. If you are going to penalize any driver for doing so, you'd need to use something entirely different than a black and orange flag, which is what the thread is about.



#27 AustinF1

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:43

Alpine engineered that. Strange team with their suspect tactics.

What?



#28 ARTGP

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 01:53

What?

 

I imagine he's talking about Ocon complaining about Magnussen's wing on the radio which may or may not have led to it being reported to race control and the flag.  At the end of the day, it's race control's decision, not Alpine's so can't see why it would be blamed on Alpine. Alpine didn't wave the flag. 


Edited by ARTGP, 20 June 2022 - 01:54.


#29 loki

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 02:14

Meatball flag?
I’ve never heard that expression for the “technical “ flag.

It’s the common name over here. 



#30 AustinF1

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 02:15

I imagine he's talking about Ocon complaining about Magnussen's wing on the radio which may or may not have led to it being reported to race control and the flag.  At the end of the day, it's race control's decision, not Alpine's so can't see why it would be blamed on Alpine. Alpine didn't wave the flag. 

Gotcha. Yeah, that's definitely a giant leap of logic.



#31 loki

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 02:32

IIRC Brundle mentioned something about the Ocon radio chatter as a call to get race control to meatball the car.  Regardless of any inconsistency in the application if you have parts waving around like that it’s likely you’ll be brought in.



#32 Cadence

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 02:36

Unless you're Louis Hamilton.

Edit: Actually, that's not fair. The Stewards gave Louis a pretty rough go last year in Brazil.

Renault has a history of crying to the Stewards and FIA to manipulate outcomes as well.

Edited by Cadence, 20 June 2022 - 02:51.


#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 06:10

Meatball flag?
I’ve never heard that expression for the “technical “ flag.

It’s a nickname as old as time.

Unless you're Louis Hamilton.

Edit: Actually, that's not fair. The Stewards gave Louis a pretty rough go last year in Brazil.

Renault has a history of crying to the Stewards and FIA to manipulate outcomes as well.

Is Louis Hamilton a friend of Ross Brown?

#34 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 06:14

From what I understand, Lewis's front wing was damaged on lap 18/19 due to a collision with Ocon. His front wing was not replaced until the red flag for Mick Schumacher's crash on lap 27. So safe to say, it was completely ignored. Definetely an inconsistent ruling compared to how Tsunoda and Magnussen were treated in Baku and Canada.

Well as I always say in these situations, let’s not let a past bad decision ruin a more recent good one. No idea why Lewis’ car was ignored at Monaco, but it doesn’t make the Tsunoda and Magnussen calls bad.

#35 TheFish

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 06:22

It’s a nickname as old as time.

 

In Germany it's known as a 'Spegeleiflagge' which translates to fried egg flag.



#36 Baddoer

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 06:53

I dont understand. I saw he was already missing that plate when he came into the pits?



#37 SophieB

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 07:04

In Germany it's known as a 'Spegeleiflagge' which translates to fried egg flag.

I love this, although it presumably means German viewers can’t annoy other people watching the race in the living room by announcing ‘that’s a spicy meatball  :( ‘ when the flag is shown.



#38 Clatter

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 07:41

Unless you're Louis Hamilton.

Edit: Actually, that's not fair. The Stewards gave Louis a pretty rough go last year in Brazil.

Renault has a history of crying to the Stewards and FIA to manipulate outcomes as well.

Which team hasn't?

#39 Clatter

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 07:44

Well as I always say in this situations, let’s not let a past bad decision ruin a more recent good one. No idea why Lewis’ car was ignored at Monaco, but it doesn’t make the Tsunoda and Magnussen calls bad.

I agree. I wonder what has been the catalyst for suddenly treating these sort of incidents seriously. What changed between Monaco and Baku?

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#40 Retrofly

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:11

End plate does not warrent a black and orange flag.

 

Whole front wing? Sure, but just and end-plate is overkill by the stewards.



#41 Clatter

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:16

End plate does not warrent a black and orange flag.

 

Whole front wing? Sure, but just and end-plate is overkill by the stewards.

 


And if that end plate breaks off and is flung up into the path of another car? It could still cause an unnecessary accident.

#42 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:16

End plate does not warrent a black and orange flag.

Whole front wing? Sure, but just and end-plate is overkill by the stewards.


A part that could fall off and be a debris hazard to a following car, causing a puncture, is overkill?

#43 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:40

Well as I always say in these situations, let’s not let a past bad decision ruin a more recent good one. No idea why Lewis’ car was ignored at Monaco, but it doesn’t make the Tsunoda and Magnussen calls bad.


Of course it matters. Selective stewarding is the core of the problems f1 has

#44 TheJag

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:44

It was ridiculous. Just a little wing endplate damage, no danger at all. Get real. 



#45 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:45

Of course it matters. Selective stewarding is the core of the problems f1 has


It matters. But if we’re going to call for consistency, we need to praise the good calls rather than complain that the bad calls aren’t the standard.

#46 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:48

It was ridiculous. Just a little wing endplate damage, no danger at all. Get real.


And if it had fallen off and given Ocon a puncture? No danger at all?

I’m always reminded of that time Jean Alesi’s onboard camera broke off and smashed Gerhard Berger’s suspension. Things falling off racing cars is always a hazard.

Then we can talk about Rubens Barrichello’s spring.

#47 ExFlagMan

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:49

Not sure a 'knife blade' sticking out the side of a car is great safety feature - especially when it is a position that is invisible to the driver - especially one who likes getting up close and personal in corners.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 20 June 2022 - 09:04.


#48 Muzzyf1

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:01

Same didn't happen with Lewis broken wing last year in Suadi did it

#49 TheJag

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:02

And if it had fallen off and given Ocon a puncture? No danger at all?

I’m always reminded of that time Jean Alesi’s onboard camera broke off and smashed Gerhard Berger’s suspension. Things falling off racing cars is always a hazard.

Then we can talk about Rubens Barrichello’s spring.

 

There's a trend in F1 where RC tries to rule out every single risk based on these kind of what ifs. Yesterday, it ruined Kmag's race. 

If you want to completely rule out parts flying off, make the cars out of one piece and take of the wings. 

In the mean time, use common sense and experience to judge whether seriously impeding someone's race is worth avoiding that 'risk'. 

Yesterday it was not, in my opinion. 


Edited by TheJag, 20 June 2022 - 10:07.


#50 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:10

There's a trend in F1 where RC tries to rule out every single risk based on these kind of what its. Yesterday, it ruined Kmag's race.
If you want to completely rule out parts flying off, make the cars out of one piece and take of the wings.
In the mean time, use common sense and experience to judge whether seriously impeding someone's race is worth it avoiding that 'risk'.
Yesterday it was not, in my opinion.

You can’t completely rule out parts flying off, but when a part is obviously damaged and the risk of it falling off is clear, then the meatball flag should be shown.

The is standard practice in motorsport, and F1 has been doing its own thing for so long that some fans have come to believe their bad practices are normal.