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Pitting under the VSC


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#1 FortiFord

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 03:01

Question: should the pit lane be closed during a VSC?

The VSC was a great introduction since it is more fair than a full SC in situations where marshals need to recover a stricken car but there is no on track debris to clean up.

Gaps are generally maintained, however drivers currently have the ability take a cheap pit stop. We saw this in the last 2 races which led to some mixed up strategies. I don’t see why this element of randomness has to remain. The pit lane could be closed.

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#2 Hillen

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 03:03

The first immediate problem I can think of is what would happen if someone with a flat tyre or a damaged car needs to pit and the pit is closed.

#3 boomn

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 03:11

Closed pit lane can cause a whole lot randomness and ruined positions

#4 FortiFord

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 03:23

Closed pit lane can cause a whole lot randomness and ruined positions


I dont see how it would. With no refuelling everyone’s pit window is flexible. Usually VSCs don’t last more than 2 laps, so I don’t see how a driver waiting 1 or 2 laps to pit would lead to ruined positions.

As one of the other posters said, it would only be unfair to cars with damage that need repairs.

#5 YamahaV10

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 03:45

Closed pits is just lame.

#6 AustinF1

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 04:13

What's lame is gaining an advantage with cheap pit stops under a VSC that's designed to neutralize the field.



#7 Atreiu

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 04:17

All the pits, always open.
:)

#8 FortiFord

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 04:35

The first immediate problem I can think of is what would happen if someone with a flat tyre or a damaged car needs to pit and the pit is closed.


The only other one I can think of is a VSC in the last few laps coupled with a car which hasn’t run 2 different compounds during the race. Quite a fringe case though.

#9 boomn

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 04:47

I dont see how it would. With no refuelling everyone’s pit window is flexible. Usually VSCs don’t last more than 2 laps, so I don’t see how a driver waiting 1 or 2 laps to pit would lead to ruined positions.

As one of the other posters said, it would only be unfair to cars with damage that need repairs.

You are probably right. I was think of closed pits under full safety car, but VSC is very different

They could drop the pit speed limit by a proportional amount, but that probably has other consequences. Or hold the cars at the stop by a set time when entering during vsc

#10 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 04:57

The only other one I can think of is a VSC in the last few laps coupled with a car which hasn’t run 2 different compounds during the race. Quite a fringe case though.

It would be a strategic choice to expose yourself to that risk though.

…on the other hand, under the current regulation it’s also a strategic choice to pit during green at the optimal time (assuming that the race stays green) or wait for a SC/VSC instead. I think of it as adding a layer of strategic complexity rather than as something purely random.

Personally, I feel that the sport needs a few unpredictable variables (even though critics would call it ”randomness”) to keep drivers, teams and viewers on their feet.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 20 June 2022 - 06:19.


#11 absinthedude

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 05:20

What's lame is gaining an advantage with cheap pit stops under a VSC that's designed to neutralize the field.

 

Why is it lame? It's luck of course, but it's just part of the nature of the VSC or indeed SC. You win some, you lose some. Over the course of the year it evens out. It is down to the teams to decide whether to pit under VSC. And that's all part of the fun of race strategy....as a fan, sometimes not knowing if certain strategies will pay off until the closing laps is fun. 



#12 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:07

With PL closed, we could get massive stops like in the US? That isn't feasible in F1 where a team has a single pit instead of one per car.



#13 MattK9

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:11

Pit under a VSC should mean a 5 or 10 sec wait before mechanics can work on the car


Edited by MattK9, 20 June 2022 - 08:11.


#14 Dolph

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:20

Pit under a VSC should mean a 5 or 10 sec wait before mechanics can work on the car


That could actually solve it.

#15 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:23

What is the problem we are trying to solve?
Vsc pitting is as fair as it is to pit just after it started raining.
It’s just racing

#16 Ali_G

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:28

What is the problem we are trying to solve?
Vsc pitting is as fair as it is to pit just after it started raining.
It’s just racing


I think the argument is that some VSC’s have been out for less than 1 lap. In that case cars who can put during the VSC period get an advantage which cars on the other side of the track do not.

#17 w1Y

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:29

I think because the purpose of the VSC is to neutralise the race but it doesn't do that.

I'd be happy with a slower pit lane entry or a delayed pitstop for a time deemed to be the saving for pitting under vsc

#18 HP

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:38

If the issue is a VSC is not out for entire lap, then let's ask a question:

 

What would happen if they kept the VSC out that much longer, so that everyone had the chance to pass by the pit entry or use the opportunity.

 

But then for example, how is it fair that a VSC is thrown, just after someone changed tyres on his car?

 

It seems to me no rule is gonna be perfect. Keep the pit open then, it's safer and causes no confusion.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:39

I think because the purpose of the VSC is to neutralise the race but it doesn't do that.


I’m interested in your reasoning as to why you think it doesn’t neutralise the race.

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#20 w1Y

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:40

I’m interested in your reasoning as to why you think it doesn’t neutralise the race.

Because people who pit save a lot of time than someone who pits under normal conditions. Its doesn't always even allow everyone the opportunity to pit under it either. Thought that was pretty clear.

If they added a delay to the vsc pit to make the net time the same as those putting under normal conditions then it would be fair but that may have other issues

Edited by w1Y, 20 June 2022 - 08:42.


#21 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:43

I think the argument is that some VSC’s have been out for less than 1 lap. In that case cars who can put during the VSC period get an advantage which cars on the other side of the track do not.

If it starts raining on a track after you passed you get an advantage
If a yellow flag happens after you - you get an advantage

Timing is part of the game

#22 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:43

Because people who pit save a lot of time than someone who pits under normal conditions. Its doesn't always even allow everyone the opportunity to pit under it either. Thought that was pretty clear.

If they added a delay to the vsc pit to make the net time the same as those putting under normal conditions then it would be fair but that may have other issues


I’d still consider the racing neutralised, no matter what the pit lane situation.

#23 Lennat

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 08:43

The first immediate problem I can think of is what would happen if someone with a flat tyre or a damaged car needs to pit and the pit is closed.

 

One could either allow pitting for critical repairs/tyre changes ( basically as in punctures), or just set a minimum pitstop time when pitting during the VSC to offset the saved time.



#24 Beri

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:00

I fail to see the problem. Pitting under a normal Safety Car also has its drawbacks. If one has passed the pits already when the SC sign comes out, then there is a disadvantage there also. Its all part of the game.



#25 P123

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:00

The only issue with pitting under a VSC is that as soon as a car is in the pitlane it is not governed by the VSC delta, so the cars can gun it in and out of the pits (before the SC line) and gain chunks of time that way relative to a normal racing pitstop.  That is what they need to tidy up.  Closing the pitlane would be a step too far.



#26 Ali_G

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:06

If it starts raining on a track after you passed you get an advantage
If a yellow flag happens after you - you get an advantage

Timing is part of the game

I agree in general. The difference with rain is that it is not controlled by race control. Even a local yellow is more haphazard and done by local Marshall’s.

Irrespective, I have no issue with the VSC at present.

Edited by Ali_G, 20 June 2022 - 09:06.


#27 Ali_G

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:08

Is there any track where going through the pits maybe faster than staying on track during a VSC?

#28 Beri

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:11

Most pitlane speeds during races are 80km/u. I cant imagine that there are much delta's who force the drivers to go slower than this.



#29 Brian60

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:13

If the pit lane was closed during a SC/ VSC, then the current champion would be Hamilton, anyone considered that? And no I am not attempting to ressurrect that argument, just putting it out there as a statement.



#30 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:18

Most pitlane speeds during races are 80km/u. I cant imagine that there are much delta's who force the drivers to go slower than this.

 

Iirc, the delta isn't measured from the Pit Exit line (limiter off) until SC-line 1 (the big white line midway in T2 crossing the pit exit line). That is ~3-400 meters of unrestricted running vs others on 40% lower speeds.



#31 Jerem

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:20

Relevant threads about the impact of pitting under SC/VSC 

https://forums.autos...ion-during-vsc/

https://forums.autos...losed-pit-lane/

https://forums.autos...new-safety-car/

My opinion: SC and VSC are always going to favour some drivers and cost other drivers. Which is by essence unfair, but the added randomness affects everyone similarly. This encourages teams to elaborate strategies that are resilient to SC/VSC, or that try to take advantage of them.

In the case of pitting under VSC, the trade-off for a few "free" seconds of pitstop is usually running a suboptimal strategy and being exposed if another SC/VSC happens. As it stands, VSC also affects the racing directly, because depending on what part of the track you are when it starts and ends, and how you handle the deltas, you can end up losing or gaining (the delta dictates track position but not speed and acceleration).

 

In a nutshell, sometimes you get lucky with VSC, sometimes you don't, and yes it could even happen at a title decider, but I don't think there's anything to fix there.



#32 smitten

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:22

What is the problem we are trying to solve?
Vsc pitting is as fair as it is to pit just after it started raining.
It’s just racing

I swither between this perspective (it's just sporting luck), and closing the pitlane for safety (RC are focussed on the incident, not on pitlane events - as evidenced at AD where they were so focussed on the incident they couldn't even count lapped cars)



#33 absinthedude

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:23

There is a bit of luck going on with timing, but that's the case with weather conditions, accidents in front of innocent drivers, even to some extent mechanical or tyre problems. 

 

Part of the intrigue is how different teams and drivers interpret the available information and apply it to strategy. Do they hope there will be another VSC/SC later in the race and stay out? Was the VSC just at the right moment to pit? 

It's fair in a way that DRS is not, because the car in front specifically will not be given an advantage that the car behind can have. VSC is far preferable to the old way of letting stricken cars stay on track, or having marshals on a live racetrack trying to push a car to a refuge point. 



#34 Beri

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:25

Iirc, the delta isn't measured from the Pit Exit line (limiter off) until SC-line 1 (the big white line midway in T2 crossing the pit exit line). That is ~3-400 meters of unrestricted running vs others on 40% lower speeds.

 

That is something I had not considered. But that should be an easy fix, include this part of the track as an active track when there is a VSC and apply a delta there too. This to force drivers to commit to the delta as well.



#35 Kev00

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 09:37

The pit lane should always be open unless it’s a safety risk. End of

#36 Ruudbackus

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 10:14

The VSC is part of the game; and it adds to the strategic mix. Yesterday Hamilton and Max pitted during the first vsc and the entire pitstop was under vsc. Sainz on the other hand went in under vsc but out under green, ending up behind Alonso losing time. They were showing replays but it was green when they went back to live feed IIRC. With the full sc Sainz was just on the straight towards pit so it fitted beautifully for him on that ocassion. 

 

 

I agree with P123 though that there is a loophole that the delta they need to drive under vsc is offset by the piststop and therefore they can maintain speed. And thats something that isn't neutralizing. 



#37 AlexPrime

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:12

Closing the pits is awful



#38 Sterzo

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:21

Easily solved. Do away with tyre changes. Don't need them anyway.



#39 ANF

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:23

Iirc, the delta isn't measured from the Pit Exit line (limiter off) until SC-line 1 (the big white line midway in T2 crossing the pit exit line). That is ~3-400 meters of unrestricted running vs others on 40% lower speeds.

Yeah, the same goes for the pit entry. Cars that enter the pit lane can go flat out between the safety car line and the beginning of the pit lane/speed limit.



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#40 chrcol

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:26

Vary the speed limit under VSC in pitlane per track so the advantage is neutralized.



#41 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:44

The lack of delta time requirements in pit entry and exit is only a small part of the advantage. Even if the delta pace was enforced there, it would still be worth pitting because the main gain is against everyone driving slowly around the rest of the track.

I do generally feel most of this discussion is attempting to solve a problem that doesn’t really exist.

#42 Paa

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:55

If it starts raining on a track after you passed you get an advantage
If a yellow flag happens after you - you get an advantage

Timing is part of the game

 

What is the problem we are trying to solve?
Vsc pitting is as fair as it is to pit just after it started raining.
It’s just racing

 

X driver pits for undercut, then the opponent pits in the next lap. If VSC is deployed, then the 2nd driver will gain like 10s with no merit. It is like hitting the random jackpot.

You can say it is part of the game.... but how can you say it is fair? It is clearly not.

 

Rain is a bit different, because that can be at least anticipated, also you can risk staying out on slicks etc, you have options to react. VSC / SC is just pure time gift.

 

Also just because we don't have control over rain, it is not a reason not to change something we have control over (SC / VSC).



#43 Primo

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:02

 

You can say it is part of the game.... but how can you say it is fair? 

It is fair because it is part of the game. There's, luckily, an element of luck in every game. If there wasn't there would not be any hope.



#44 Fonzey

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:06

Nah leave them in. SC/VSC has hurt 'my driver' in a race a bunch of times, but it's part of the game. 

 

Strategies are built around it, SC windows etc. Providing the rules are applied properly and consistently (ahem) I don't see an issue with occasionally having your race made or trashed due to (V)SC timing.



#45 Baddoer

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:10

If you are Alonso, then yes

If your are not, then no



#46 PlatenGlass

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:12

I think there was a certain "purity" (if that's the right word) about races in the past that just essentially ran themselves with no real interference from race control. Obviously we can't simply go back to that now because of safety requirements, but we don't want artificial contrivances to have too much effect on the end result either. It would be perfectly possible to have a different (slower) pitlane speed limit during an SC or VSC period that would approximately negate the advantage gained. Should be easy enough to do.



#47 Gareth

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:20

They could drop the pit speed limit by a proportional amount

I think this would work, and I can't see any downsides. I suggested it almost exactly 10 years ago! Minor change to SC rules - Racing Comments Archive - The Autosport Forums



#48 TomNokoe

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:37

100% should be closed, it's grossly unfair and goes beyond these blanket nothing statements "randomness is good", "that's racing".

Obviously the rules can be tweaked for force majeure etc.

I don't think it's right to compare it to wet weather/accidents/mechanicals because you can't regulate for that, whereas this is very, very easy for the sport to change.

#49 Dunky1980

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:47

I do miss the old days when we had no safety car and virtual safety car more pure racing. I understand why we need it.

I can understand why drivers don't push flat out anymore when you could build up a big lead and all be wiped out by a safety car and be on worn out tyres.

Edited by Dunky1980, 20 June 2022 - 13:49.


#50 RekF1

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 13:50

I think because the purpose of the VSC is to neutralise the race but it doesn't do that.
I'd be happy with a slower pit lane entry or a delayed pitstop for a time deemed to be the saving for pitting under vsc


That solves the problem completely. Minimum stationary time to compensate for time gained. It's better than waiting for everyone to pass the pits because the vsc Delta hurts drivers on a straight more than it does in a twisty section and that problem will always be there.