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La Baule 1952 - two by two


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 10:33

I am wondering if this is the first occasion when the grid for a 'major' race had the grid formed in the Noah's Ark configuration?

 

I found one image of the start and the track does look quite narrow, which might explain the 2 by 2 grid.

 

One other thing.....  Manzon put his Gordini alongside Ascari on the front row with Farina behind and between them.  Both Manzon and Farina retired on the first lap and both retirements are listed as 'accident'.  I wonder if anyone can confirm that these two had a coming together or were they in fact, separate incidents?

 

Little surprise to see that Ascari won by over a lap, but it was a three hour race, as were all the French Championship rounds in 1952.



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#2 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 12:16

The ‘Black Book’ report says that ‘Ascari ... was in the lead at the end of the first lap with Farina hot on the heels of Manzon. Too hot, though, for when Manzon braked unexpectedly, possibly when he got onto some oil, Farina was straight into and over the back of the Gordini and both cars were out of the race.’

In his Gordini book Roy Smith says ‘On the first lap, Manzon thought he saw oil on a corner and braked early, catching out Farina who, with no time to react, ended up on top of the Gordini, narrowly avoiding decapitating Manzon. Manzon by reflex had leaned to his left, saving his life but sustaining burns to his back.’

#3 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 12:16

I am wondering if this is the first occasion when the grid for a 'major' race had the grid formed in the Noah's Ark configuration?


1914 Lyon?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 June 2022 - 12:17.


#4 nicanary

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 12:17

The Black Book confirms that on the second lap Manzon slid, possibly on oil, and Farina rammed the Gordini, both cars retiring. Surely 2 X 2 grids were commonplace where tracks were narrow, especially pre-war ?



#5 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 12:50

1914 Lyon?

And was Strasbourg 1922 the first mass start, also 2x2?



#6 Allan Lupton

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 16:16

And was Strasbourg 1922 the first mass start, also 2x2?

Yes, as were Tours (1923) and Lyons (1924) - all rolling starts



#7 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 17:12

I am wondering if this is the first occasion when the grid for a 'major' race had the grid formed in the Noah's Ark configuration?
 
I found one image of the start and the track does look quite narrow, which might explain the 2 by 2 grid.
 
One other thing.....  Manzon put his Gordini alongside Ascari on the front row with Farina behind and between them.  Both Manzon and Farina retired on the first lap and both retirements are listed as 'accident'.  I wonder if anyone can confirm that these two had a coming together or were they in fact, separate incidents?
 
Little surprise to see that Ascari won by over a lap, but it was a three hour race, as were all the French Championship rounds in 1952.

 
Automobile Revue also confirms that Farina "literally climbed onto the back of the little Gordini"! They also have more detailed results, showing that Villoresi was not lapped (which was also mentioned in the report):
 

1 Ascari

371.284 km

= 87 laps in 3:00'44.0"

2 Villoresi

368.165 km

= 87 laps in 3:02'15.8"

3 Rosier

357.614 km

= 84 laps in 3:01'10.2"

4 Collins

355.236 km

= 84 laps in 3:02'23.0"

5 Giraud-Cabantous

346.437 km

= 82 laps in 3:02'33.8"

6 Crespo

345.522 km

= 81 laps in 3:00'48.8"

7 Bayol

339.044 km

= 80 laps in 3:01'59.6"

8 Claes

338.748 km

= 80 laps in 3:02'09.2"

9 Brandon

328.421 km

= 77 laps in 3:00'50.1"

10 Brown

263.133 km

= 62 laps in 3:01'44.1"

11 Behra

12 Trintignant

 

 

The most interesting difference to the Black Book, however, is that Harry Schell is listed on the grid as driving a Maserati-Platè, not a Gordini, and the report specifically mentions him retiring "the second Maserati-Platè"! Although Crespo is also listed with a Maserati-Platè in the results, he shows up on the grid in a "Maserati 2 Liter", so presumably a Bandeirantes car, which sounds much more plausible.



#8 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 22:01

Autocourse and the Gordini books by Christian Huet and Robert Jarraud all say that Schell drove a T15 Gordini.



#9 68targa

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 08:48

There is a photo of the Farina - Manzon incident in Émotion Ferrari (Maurice Louche) showing the Ferrari's right front wheel sitting squarely in the cockpit of the Gordini. Manzon was very lucky to escape.

 

I would post a copy of the image but copyright probably says I shouldn't



#10 RAP

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 09:13

This has caused me to go back into our records and I have solved the issue of the number of laps. Our book is based on the report by Charles Faroux in what I assume is L'Equipe (the photocopy does not have the name of the publication) in which Villoresi's race distance is given as 363.185 kms, 8.099 k behind Ascari and so more than a lap - the lap length was 4.285km.

 

But, if I calculate the time/speed it doesn't "add up"; in fact Villoresi's distance should be 368.185 km as stated in Automobile Revue, 3.099 km behind and so less than a lap. So all down to a printing error in the French report.

 

It is somewhat rewriting history to calculate the race time as eg 3:00'44.0" because the actual results are as a 3 hours, not the first time the car passed the line after 3 hours. Using the last lap time, the timekeepers calculated where the car would be on the dot of 3 hours, that's why the published distances are not complete laps.

 

As regards the the Schell question, I can add to Roger's comment that the Official Programme shows Gordini too. Faroux's report makes no mention of Schell's car. 

 

By the way, I should mention that those still reliant on the original 1988 edition should consider "upgrading" to the current edition which has much extra information and correction to the 1st Edition. especially in chassis numbers.

 

Richard Page

www.formulaoneregister.com 


Edited by RAP, 22 June 2022 - 09:13.


#11 rudi

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 12:41

The 1952 La baule GP entry list

3q3j.jpg



#12 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 14:00

Okay, seems Automobile Revue was wrong. The evidence for Schell in a Gordini is quite strong, then.

 

 

It is somewhat rewriting history to calculate the race time as eg 3:00'44.0" because the actual results are as a 3 hours, not the first time the car passed the line after 3 hours. Using the last lap time, the timekeepers calculated where the car would be on the dot of 3 hours, that's why the published distances are not complete laps.

 

Er, no. A three-hour race ends when the winner crosses the line for the first time after three hours, and the other cars are flagged off after that. Average speeds for the whole race (not just the last lap) are then multiplied by three to get the (virtual) distance covered for three hours. I wouldn't call it rewriting history, it's just a French fad, the way they did it for many decades (maybe they still do at Le Mans? I don't follow Sports car racing).

 

If it were like you said, Villoresi would have been flagged off before Ascari, and one lap short (368.165 by 4.285 is 85.92). That's not how it's done.



#13 Roger Clark

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 17:33

Have I understood this correctly?  Michael and Richard both seem to be saying that a car’s distance covered is determined by where it is on the stroke of three hours. The only difference appears to be in how that is calculated: Richard says it depends on the last lap speed, Michael on the average speed for the whole race.   In both cases shouldn’t the race duration for everybody be 3 hours 0.00 seconds?



#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 18:03

You misunderstood me. A race always stops with the chequered flag, at the start/finish line. The distances-at-three-hours thing is just a quirky method of displaying the results.



#15 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 18:08

Just because I have it lying around here, the results of the 1989 Canadian GP that was stopped after two hours, can also be displayed like that:

 

1 Boutsen 299.414 km

2 Patrese 298.186 km

3 de Cesaris 295.494 km

4 Piquet 295.300 km

5 Arnoux 291.226 km

6 Caffi 289.856 km



#16 RAP

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 18:13

Yes Roger, I think Michael and I are saying the same thing other than the precise arithmetic on how the distance is actually computed. Here is the regulation from the programme but if I read it right/Google translates it right this would seem to mean that the distance is in whole laps, but clearly this is not so as shown below. I have a feeling the extract is not complete as it doesn't really make sense. It refers to the addition of, but only gives one element, the vital bit is missing!

FIRST IN THE CLASSIFICATION will be the one who has traveled the greatest distance during the 3 hour period. The total distance per runner will be obtained by adding: the distance representing the number of full laps completed before the end of the 3 hours.

 

Taking the results from Automobile Revue for the first 4 cars 

Ascari 371.284 kn in 123.761 kph - divide distance by kph equals exactly 3 hours and the distance represents  86.65 laps ie Ascari was on his 87th lap but had not completed it at the 3 hour mark

Villoresi 368.165 k; 122.721 kph =  exactly 3 hours = 85.92 laps - this does NOT mean Villoresi was lap but it does mean he had not started his 86th lap when the 3 hours ran out.

Rosier 357.614 k ; 119.204 kph = 3 hours =  83.46 laps

Collins 355.236 k ; 118.412 kph = 3 hours = 82.90 laps

 

If we picture this at a familiar circuit like Goodwood, at the appointed hour Ascari was at Lavant on his 87th lap, Villoresi was at the Chicane about to complete his 86th, Rosier was at St Marys on his 84th and Collins at the Chicane on his 83rd.

 

I certainly won't argue about whether the arithmetic was done on the last lap or the overall average, can anyone answer that conclusively? (the current Le Mans regs refer to complete laps so not the 1952 system)

"The cars are classified according to the number of complete laps covered during the race."

 

Michael's comment "The distances-at-three-hours thing is just a quirky method of displaying the results." - it may indeed be regarded as quirky but they are nevertheless the Official Results, my original point being that to express it as  though the race ended when cars passed the chequered flag appears to be rewriting the Official results to a modern way of doing thing. 

 

What would have been the result if Ascari had hit trouble after the 3 hours? I think Le Mans had a rule that the last lap had to be completed in a minimum time but suppose Ascari ground to a halt in sight of the line and pushed home (within the time limit) but Villoresi screamed round and crossed the line first - who would the winner be?? My reading is Ascari as he had done the greatest distance in 3 hours..........

 

Anyway the bigger question is has anyone yet figured out how the Championship scores for the GP de France series was computed !!

 

Richard

www.formulaoneregister 


Edited by RAP, 22 June 2022 - 18:43.


#17 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 19:06

Michael's comment "The distances-at-three-hours thing is just a quirky method of displaying the results." - it may indeed be regarded as quirky but they are nevertheless the Official Results, my original point being that to express it as  though the race ended when cars passed the chequered flag appears to be rewriting the Official results to a modern way of doing thing. 
 
What would have been the result if Ascari had hit trouble after the 3 hours? I think Le Mans had a rule that the last lap had to be completed in a minimum time but suppose Ascari ground to a halt in sight of the line and pushed home (within the time limit) but Villoresi screamed round and crossed the line first - who would the winner be?? My reading is Ascari as he had done the greatest distance in 3 hours..........

 
I respectfully disagree. A race cannot end anywhere other than at the start/finish line; anything else could conceivably lead to undecidable conflicts, of which your example is but one. The explanation given in the programme is hogwash, in my opinion, probably written by a PR person who didn't understand it himself. The simplest (and only practical) explanation is that the results were given as average speed times duration in hours, the same way as at le Mans.
 

Anyway the bigger question is has anyone yet figured out how the Championship scores for the GP de France series was computed !![/size]


not sure if it helps, but this is something I cobbled together several years ago:

 

Les Grands Prix des France 1952
===============================
 
1952-04-14 (Mon)
AC Basco Béarnais
XIII. Grand Prix de Pau
Circuit de Pau
2.769 km
 
 1  Ascari        Ferrari 1         273.305 km  99 laps  3:00'32.6"  (?)
 2  Rosier        Ferrari-France 1  263.384 km  96 laps  3:01'40.0"  (?)
 3  Behra         Gordini 2         258.267 km  94 laps  3:01'24.4"  (?)
 4  Bayol         OSCA              252.225 km  92 laps  3:01'48.0"  (?)
 5  Martin        Jicey             245.198 km  89 laps  3:00'54.7"  (?)
 6  Graffenried   Maserati-Platè 1  243.873 km  89 laps  3:01'53.7"  (?)
 7  Macklin       HWM 1             236.710 km  86 laps  3:01'05.0"  (?)
 8  Villoresi     Ferrari 3         215.982 km  78 laps  accident
 9  Claes         Gordini           196.599 km  71 laps  transmission
10  Manzon        Gordini 3         182.754 km  66 laps  accident
11  Trintignant   Ferrari-France 2  169.164 km  62 laps  3:02'40.5"  (?)
12  Stuck         AFM               135.681 km  49 laps  mechanical  (135.661 km?)
 
FL  Ascari        Ferrari 1          95.4 kph    lap ??  1'44.4"
 
 
1952-04-27 (Sun)
AC de Marseille et de Provence
X. Grand Prix de Marseille
Marseille, Parc Borely (Borély?)
2.670 km
 
 1  Ascari        Ferrari 1         359.56 km  135 laps  3:00'26.7"  (134 laps?)
 2  Bira/
    Manzon        Gordini 3         344.1 km  (?)
 3  Claes         Gordini           340.5 km  (?)
 4  Graffenried   Maserati-Platè 1  338.6 km  (?)
 5  Bayol         OSCA              330.9 km  (?)
 6  Behra         Gordini 2         298.0 km  (?)
 7  Collins       HWM 3             261.8 km  (?)
 8  Stuck         AFM               252.3 km  (?)
 
FL  Farina        Ferrari 2         125.5 kph  (?)
 
 
1952-05-25 (Sun)
AC de l'Île de France
VII. Grand Prix de Paris
Autodrome de Linas-Montlhéry
6.28340 km
 
 1  Taruffi       Ferrari 3         460.301 km  74 laps  3:01'48.9"
 2  Farina/
    Simon         Ferrari 1         441.6 km  (?)
 3  Rosier        Ferrari-France 1  435.4 km  (?)
 4  Macklin       HWM 1             398.1 km  (5th?  Macklin/Collins?)
 5  Balsa         BMW-Balsa         360.7 km  (6th?  Bayol?  OSCA?)
 6  Cabantous     HWM 3             317.2 km  (7th?)
 7  Bira          Gordini 3           ?       (retired?)
DQ  Villoresi/
    Farina        Ferrari 2           ?       (4th?)
 
FL  Taruffi       Ferrari 3         160.189 kph  lap ??  2'21.2"
 
 
1952-06-29 (Sun)
AC de Champagne
XXI. Grand Prix de Reims
Gueux, Circuit de Reims
7.19770 km
 
 1  Behra         Gordini 2         509.805 km  71 laps  3:00'26.1"
 2  Farina        Ferrari 2         507.844 km  71 laps  3:01'07.9"
 3  Ascari/
    Villoresi     Ferrari 1         504.732 km  71 laps  3:02'14.9"
 4  Bira          Gordini 3         493.146 km  70 laps  3:03'54.2"  (69 laps  3:01'16.5"?)
 5  Rosier        Ferrari-France 1  467.867 km  66 laps  3:02'45.8"
 6  Claes         Gordini           464.073 km  65 laps  3:01'27.9"
 7  Hawthorn      Cooper/Bristol    461.326 km  65 laps  3:02'32.7"
 8  Cabantous     HWM 3             460.840 km  65 laps  3:02'44.3"
 9  Graffenried   Maserati-Platè 1  440.924 km  62 laps  3:02'10.6"
10  Moss          HWM               433.322 km  61 laps  3:02'23.0"
11  Brandon       Cooper/Bristol    426.798 km  60 laps  3:02'08.1"  (Brandon/Brown?)
 
FL  Ascari        Ferrari 1         174.843 kph  lap ??  2'28.2"
 
 
1952-07-06 (Sun)
AC de France
XXXIX. Grand Prix
AC du Normand (AC de Normandie?)
III. Grand Prix de (la Ville de) Rouen
Les Essarts, Circuit de Rouen
5.100 km
 
 1  Ascari        Ferrari 1         386.876 km  76 laps  3:00'20.2"
 2  Farina        Ferrari 2         385.263 km  76 laps  3:01'05.5"
 3  Taruffi       Ferrari 3         378.054 km  75 laps  3:02'07.0"
 4  Manzon        Gordini 1         372.671 km  74 laps  3:02'17.0"
 5  Trintignant   Gordini           360.999 km  72 laps  3:03'05.5"  (71 laps  3:00'32.9"?)
 6  Collins       HWM 2             355.769 km  70 laps  3:00'37.4"
 7  Behra         Gordini 2         355.610 km  70 laps  3:00'42.2"
 8  Étancelin     Maserati          354.677 km  70 laps  3:01'10.7"
 9  Macklin       HWM 1             352.076 km  70 laps  3:02'31.0"
10  Cabantous     HWM 3             342.680 km  68 laps  3:02'09.8"
11  Fischer/
    Hirt          Ferrari           332.257 km  66 laps  3:02'21.2"
12  Comotti       Marzotto 1        318.640 km  63 laps  3:01'30.2"
 
FL  Ascari        Ferrari 1         133.721 kph  lap 28  2'17.3"
 
 
1952-07-13 (Sun)
AC de la Vendée
II. Grand Prix des Sables d'Olonne
Les Sables d'Olonne
2.35 km
 
 1  Villoresi     Ferrari 3         319.35 km  136 laps  3:00'08.4"  (?)
 2  Collins       HWM 2             309.6 km  (?)
 3  Claes         Gordini           307.2 km  (?)
 4  Bira/
    Manzon        Gordini 3         302.2 km  (?)
 5  Manzon/
    Trintignant   Gordini 1           ?
 
FL  Ascari        Ferrari 1         117.076 kph  lap ??  1'12.3"
 
 
1952-08-10 (Sun)
AC du Midi
XVII. Grand Prix du Comminges
Saint-Gaudens
4.47 km (?)
 
 1  Simon/
    Ascari        Ferrari 3         416.348 km  94 laps  3:01'39.4"  (?)
 2  Farina        Ferrari 2         412.862 km  94 laps  3:03'11.4"  (?)
 3  Behra         Gordini 2         390.943 km  89 laps  3:03'10.3"  (?)
 4  Whitehead     Alta              387.589 km  89 laps  3:04'45.4"  (88 laps  3:02'40.8"?)
 5  Graffenried   Maserati-Platè 1  367.935 km  84 laps  3:03'41.5"  (?)
 6  Cabantous     HWM 3             351.328 km  81 laps  3:05'30.2"  (80 laps  3:03'12.8"?)
 
FL  Ascari        Ferrari 1         142.1 kph  (?)
 
 
1952-08-24 (Sun)
AC de l'Ouest
XI. Grand Prix de la Baule
Escoublac Aérodrome
4.285 km
 
 1  Ascari        Ferrari 1         371.284 km  87 laps  3:00'44.0"
 2  Villoresi     Ferrari 2         368.165 km  87 laps  3:02'15.8"  (363.165 km?, 368.3 km?)
 3  Rosier        Ferrari-France 1  357.614 km  84 laps  3:01'10.2"
 4  Collins       HWM 2             355.236 km  84 laps  3:02'23.0"
 5  Cabantous     HWM 3             346.437 km  82 laps  3:02'33.8"
 6  Crespo        Maserati          345.522 km  81 laps  3:00'48.8"  (Maserati-Platè 2?)
 7  Bayol         OSCA              339.044 km  80 laps  3:01'59.6"
 8  Claes         Gordini           338.748 km  80 laps  3:02'09.2"
 9  Brandon       Cooper/Bristol    328.421 km  77 laps  3:00'50.1"
10  Brown         Cooper/Bristol    263.133 km  62 laps  3:01'44.1"
 
FL  Villoresi     Ferrari 2         127.382 kph  lap ??  2'01.1"
 
 
Points Table
============
                          4/14  4/27  5/25  6/29   7/6  7/13  8/10  8/24
                     TOT   Pau   Mar   Par   Rei   Rou   Sab   Com   Bau
 
 1  Ferrari 1         53     9     8     9     -     9     1     9     8    (54 points?)
 2  Ferrari 3         23     -     -     6     5     4     8     -     -    (26 points?)
 3  Ferrari 2         26     -     1     -     6     6     -     6     7    (22 points?)
 4  Ferrari-France 1  16     6     -     4     2     -     -     -     4
 4  Gordini 2         16     4     -     -     8     -     -     4     -    (18 points?)
 6  Gordini 3         12     -     6     -     3     -     3     -     -
 7  HWM 2              9     -     -     -     -     -     6     -     3
 8  Gordini 1          5     -     -     -     -     3     2     -     -    (12 points?)
 8  Maserati-Platè 1   5     -     3     -     -     -     -     2     -
 8  OSCA               5     3     2     -     -     -     -     -     -
11  Alta               3     -     -     -     -     -     -     3     -    (- points?)
11  HWM 1              3     -     -     3     -     -     -     -     -
13  HWM 3              2     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     2    (4 points?)
13  Jicey              2     2     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 -  Ferrari-France 2   -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 -  Maserati-Platè 2   -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 -  AFM                -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 -  ERA                -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -     -
 
 
Purse
=====
 
Ferrari          FF 5,350,000  (+?)
Gordini          FF   950,000  (+?)
Ferrari-France   FF   450,000  (+?)
HWM              FF   250,000  (+?)
Écurie Belge     FF   200,000  (?)


#18 Rob Miller

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 20:04

Michael, the Belgian Gordini of Claes is missing from the points table for Mar and Sab. Rob

#19 Roger Clark

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 20:44

Should it be 9 points for Ferrari 3 and 6 for Ferrari 1 at Montlhéry and 5 for Ferrari 1 at Reims?



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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 06:27

Michael, the Belgian Gordini of Claes is missing from the points table for Mar and Sab. Rob

 
Indeed it is! Thanks for pointing it out. Right now I have no explanation, it's been a few years since. I recall finding the final point standings in a period magazine (AMuS?), and working from there - perhaps they already missed it?
 

Should it be 9 points for Ferrari 3 and 6 for Ferrari 1 at Montlhéry and 5 for Ferrari 1 at Reims?


Yes, perhaps. I think I remember taking the respective starting numbers to define what was Ferrari 1, 2 or 3, and so on. Not sure if it was done that way, and if the info on starting numbers was correct, but it seemed the only logical way to do it. Then again, as so often in (motor) sports, logic doesn't seem to matter all that much...



#21 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 08:33

I don't think the programme quoted by Richard is hogwash, apart from the missing phrase which I would assume to be something like: (The total distance per runner will be obtained by adding: the distance representing the number of full laps completed before the end of the 3 hours) and the calculated part lap distance at 3 hours.  If the calculation was based on the average speed for the race it would mean that the first across the line was also deemed to have covered the greatest distance.  In the scenario imagined by Richard, Villoresi would be the winner even though Ascari actually covered a greater distance in 3 hours. I hope it never happened.

 

​Autosport, The Motor and The Autocar all published a final table for the championship, but no race-by-race breakdown.  They all showed the points for the works Ferraris as shown in brackets in Michael's table.



#22 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 08:35


Yes, perhaps. I think I remember taking the respective starting numbers to define what was Ferrari 1, 2 or 3, and so on. Not sure if it was done that way, and if the info on starting numbers was correct, but it seemed the only logical way to do it. Then again, as so often in (motor) sports, logic doesn't seem to matter all that much...

I based my comment on the identification of Ferrari 1, 2 and 3 in your race results.

#23 RAP

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 08:36

I knew that I had the definition of the results method somewhere – this is from the Pau report by Maurice Henry in L’Equipe, who were co-sponsors of the GP de France series. It is shown in a side-box  to the report.

Pour obtenir la distance exacte parcours dans les trois heures :

1. La distance represenentant la nombre de tours entires effectues avant l'expiration de la troisieme heure

2. La distance representant la fraction du tour cours duquel la fin de la troisieme heure etatit atteinte ; cette distance etant calcules d'apres la vitesse moyenne realise sure le dernier tour.

Which translates as

To get the exact distance traveled within three hours:

1. The distance representing the number of full laps completed before the expiration of the third hour

2. The distance representing the fraction of the lap during which the end of the third hour was reached; this distance being calculated according to the average speed achieved on the last lap.

 

So it seems evident to me that the Official Results determined the positions at 3 hours by the above method. Not at the finish line. Also it confirms that the calculation uses the last lap not the race average (actually it would be misleading to use the race average as a car might have had a long pit-stop so that its race average was way below its lap times at the end). 

 

For Pau, like La Baule, the result for Ascari is 273.305 kms en 3 heures moyen 91.101  - 273.305 divided by 91.101 is 3.0 hours exact so again we see that the results are at 3 hours, not a complete number of laps.

Richard


Edited by RAP, 23 June 2022 - 08:38.


#24 RAP

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 08:53

On the points problem I wrote this in the latest edition of A Record  of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing Vol 5 1950-53

This championship has defeated the Formula One Register and other historians. The difficulty starts with points being scored by car but the team nominated which was to be e.g. Gordini 1, Gordini 2 etc for each race so that it cannot be assumed that, say, Manzon was always "Gordini 1". 

 

The next problem is establishing the final scores. Autosport 29/8/52 p288 and Revue Automobile published points just after the final round that more or less agreed with each other. Automobile Revue published slightly different points on 1/10/52. Despite trying numerous combinations, it has not been possible to get scores to add to either – close but not exact!  Rather than show an inaccurate table, set out above are the scores from the sources mentioned.

 

                              Autosport &                      Automobile Revue

                      Revue-Automobile

 

      1.      Ferrari 1                54         1.      Ferrari 1                              54

      2.      Ferrari 3                26         2.      Ferrari 3                              26

      3.      Ferrari 2                22         3.      Ferrari 2                              22

      4.      Gordini 2              18         4.      Gordini 2                             18

      5.      Rosier                   16        5=      Rosier                                 16

      6.      Gordini 1              12                  Gordini 1                             16

      7.      HWM 2                  9         7.      Claes                                     8

      8.      Claes                      8         8.      HWM 2                                 6

     9=      Maserati-Platé 1      5        9=      Maserati-Platé 1                   5*

               Bayol                      5                  Bayol                                    5*

    11.      HWM 3                  4      11=      HWM 1                                 3

    12.      HWM 1                  1                  Gordini 3                               3

               Alta                        1                  Alta                                       3

   14=      Martin                     1

               HWM 3                  1

              

               * shown as 3 but obviously a typographical error

 

The declaration as to which car was 1, 2 and 3 was made at after practice and not later than during the verification operations preceding each race.

 

My own conclusion is that the points complier made one or more mistakes; something that still happens today.



#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 09:04

The extract from L'Equipe seems clear but it means that, if the leader had a slow final lap he could lose the race even though he led the race from start to finish - however that is defined. I hope it never happened.

#26 Barry Boor

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 09:14

Oh dear….  I didn’t think I’d be opening such a can of worms when I started all this.

 

it’s been great fun to read it but what a load of pedants we all are.   :lol:



#27 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 09:59

The extract from L'Equipe seems clear but it means that, if the leader had a slow final lap he could lose the race even though he led the race from start to finish - however that is defined. I hope it never happened.

 

Which is why I think it's hogwash. Taking the last lap to determine the virtual distance covered is a lot more complicated, offers no advantages (as it will always be a *virtual* distance, no matter how you arrive at it), and can lead to numerous awkward situations after the finish. Like, as in Roger's example, having a car that was never headed throughout the contest finish in second place - how do you sell that to the public?



#28 Allan Lupton

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 10:15

Which is why I think it's hogwash. Taking the last lap to determine the virtual distance covered is a lot more complicated, offers no advantages (as it will always be a *virtual* distance, no matter how you arrive at it), and can lead to numerous awkward situations after the finish. Like, as in Roger's example, having a car that was never headed throughout the contest finish in second place - how do you sell that to the public?

 

When I saw this I thought of the late, great Roland King-Farlow's puzzle for training RAC Timekeepers,.which I've quoted before:
He postulated a two-part race where first part was won by over a lap from cars "B" and "C" by a car that did not finish in the second part. The leader of the second part had finished several laps down in the first part but had fixed his problem so was a lap ahead of the next cars which were "C" and "B".
The task was to add up the laps and times to produce a race result and, having done that, an explanation that would satisfy the Stewards (and the public) of how the winner and runner-up (cars "B" and "C") could have those places despite having covered 2 laps less than the official race distance. :cool: :stoned:

Edited by Allan Lupton, 23 June 2022 - 10:17.


#29 RAP

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 12:28

Michael, if by hogwash you mean a odd way of doing it then I agree although I believe that it was the normal French method as used at Le Mans & Bol d'Or, though I have no evidence to hand.

 

If you mean so it can't be true, then I have to disagree because the evidence seems clear.

 

Regardless, I think it is time to move on.

 

Richard


Edited by RAP, 23 June 2022 - 12:40.


#30 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 15:37

Yes, perhaps it's time to move on, but let me make one more post, not least because it took some time to prepare it, which in a way proves my point.

 

By hogwash I mean it can't be true, precisely because the evidence is so clear.

 

Earlier, I posted the results of the 1989 Canadian GP in "two-hour fashion", because that was the rule, then: a race will be stopped if it exceeds two hours of time (and btw, I don't think anybody believes that the race was to end after exactly two hours, right? So why should we think different about a 1952 race). Anyway, my point is, it took me less than a minute to convert the official results from the FIA Longines/Olivetti bulletin into the "two-hour format", and that even without using a calculator.

 

I now tried to use the "last lap rule" as per the L'Équipe article, and it took me a quarter of an hour even with the use of a calculator, to get the following results:

                    CS          LL
1 Boutsen       299.414 km  299.408 km
2 Patrese       298.186 km  298.458 km
3 de Cesaris    295.494 km  295.279 km
4 Piquet        295.300 km  295.188 km
5 Arnoux        291.226 km  291.221 km
6 Caffi         289.856 km  289.873 km

NB: "CS" stands for "common sense" method   ;) and "LL" for "last lap" method

 

 

You can see, there's barely any difference, so I just can't imagine why anybody would go to such lengths to replace a perfectly sensible method by one that has so many serious flaws, and besides, I can equally not imagine how long it would take for a person with just a pen and paper (and perhaps a slide rule) to calculate the *virtual* distances covered by a field of fifty or more competitors, as at Le Mans.

 

No, the evidence is very clear: those distances in the official results represent the race averages multiplied by the advertized duration in hours, and the races were started and finished as usual. There is no other practical way of doing this. There is simply no other way of doing it, period, without running into monstrous problems every once in a while. It simply can't be done by the "last lap" method.


Edited by Michael Ferner, 23 June 2022 - 15:47.


#31 RAP

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 15:58

I know I said enough but, Michael, you seem to persist in ignoring the regulations as quoted !

 

" because the evidence is so clear."

I can't see any evidence related to 1952.

 

Here is how you do it- 

Leader has done 70 laps of 4 kms shortly BEFORE the 3 hours is up, say the 70th lap completed at 2'59"

Last lap (the 70th) time 3 minutes

Position at the 3 hour mark (70x4k) + (a/b x 4 k) =

where (a) is the difference time at which the 70th lap was completed (2'59") to the 3 hrs mark ie 1 minute and (b) is the lap time ie 3 min so (a/bx4) = 1.333 so the race distance completed in 3 hours is 281.333kms

Richard


Edited by RAP, 23 June 2022 - 16:12.


#32 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 16:08

I know I said enough but, Michael, you seem to persist in ignoring the regulations as quoted !


... in a newspaper! I don't believe everything I read in a newspaper, and especially not when researching old races. If I did, I'd have to believe in multiple realities.



#33 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 20:36

Two newspapers, one written by Charles Faux and a race programme.



#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 23:18

And we know that the French would follow the rules to the letter...

 

Especially if it made a French entry was advantaged.



#35 Barry Boor

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 19:43

Lowering the tone of this thread to its very bottom level, here are the cars from that race.

 

labaulecars.jpg

 

And before the pedants revolt....  I know that Behra wasn't using his chequered band helmet in 1952: I don't know Alberto Crespo's helmet colour and Jean Lucas' Cooper Bristol probably wasn't dark blue.

 

And this is my version of the circuit:

 

labauletrack.jpg



#36 DCapps

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 21:02

I am wondering if this is the first occasion when the grid for a 'major' race had the grid formed in the Noah's Ark configuration?

 

 

Apparently, this has been interpreted to exclude any races in the United States prior to this, scarcely a surprise of course.



#37 LittleChris

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 21:13

:clap: Cue Michael to let us  know  :lol:



#38 DCapps

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 22:39

:clap: Cue Michael to let us  know  :lol:

 

I already KNOW that there were two x two starting grids in the United States long, long before the French event in 1952. 



#39 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 07:26

I thought the earlier discussion was very much in the spirit of TNF.  Anybody who feels otherwise should look away now.

 

1. We lost sight of Richard's important point that the Official Results as consistently reported are eg

Ascari  3 hours; 371.284 kms ; 121.761 kph
NOT
Ascari 87 laps 3;00'44.9" 121.761 kph
 
​2. I thought Richard produced convincing evidence over the way total distance was calculated.  However, Autocourse printed all lap times for these races and we can use them to do some calculations for Ascari at La Baule.
(1) He completed 86 full laps in 2 hours 58' 37.3".
(2) He therefore spent 82.7 secs on his 87th lap before completion of 3 hours.
(3) His lap time for his 87th lap was 2' 07.9" or 127.9".
(4) He therefore complete 82.7/127.9 of his 87th lap before the completion of 3 hours.
(5) If the lap length was 4.285 km, his distance covered in 3 hours was 86 x 4.285 (= 368.510) + 82.7/127.9 x 4.285 (= 2.771) =371.281.  
This is 3 metres less than the official results.
 
​3. We didn't make any progress on understanding the scoring of the Grands Prix de France championship.
 
​4. Michael introduced the example of the 1989 Canadian Grand Prix.  I don't see why the rules of a 1952 series should have any connection with those 37 years later but was that race really run to a two hour limit? The contemporary information I have seen say it was run over 69 laps, reduced from the planned 70 after the aborted start and extra parade lap.  There will be many who know more about these recent races than I do.


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#40 Collombin

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 08:35

Apparently, this has been interpreted to exclude any races in the United States prior to this, scarcely a surprise of course.


That last throwaway comment is a little unfair. The US certainly seems under represented in terms of TNF membership but that's not the fault of the non-US members, many of whom are nevertheless interested in the US scene despite being insular Brits, Europeans, Aussies etc. Or have I failed to grasp your point?

#41 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 08:53

I'm with Roger, I find the discussion interesting - well, except for that one post, but I guess the poster does feel better now, so all's good. I have a thick skin.

 

As to Roger's post, I agree with his point 1, however I fail to see the significance of that in this discussion. I have very often come across results that omitted race times in favour of average speeds, which is what we're effectively seeing here, I think.

 

I do not agree with point 2, it's not convincing me - I still think the printed 'evidence' is just a pretence to make the public believe that the results refer to the exact position of the cars on the appointed hour, and I still maintain that there is no practical way to finish a race other than at the finishing line. To his example, his calculation gives "3 metres less than the official results", to which I can reply that "my" calculation is only 1 metre shy which can be easily explained by the effects of rounding.

 

However, I am intrigued to learn that you have the individual lap times from La Baule - I only have those of the Pau Grand Prix, but sadly (as is so often the case with race timing in that period), they don't add up correctly, and without additional information it's almost impossible to find and correct those msitakes. I would love to get to the bottom of this, and since I have developed a spread sheet for the purpose of examining individual race lap times, can I ask you to make a copy available to me? Does Autocourse have lap times for other three hour races as well?* I'd love to get my teeth into this!

 

As for point 3, I'm not sure, I'd have to look into it again - I thought your suggestion in post #19 did look promising.

 

Point 4, this is not really relevant to the discussion, it was just an example of how these things can look different with a little twist. It doesn't really matter whether the race was, in fact, a two-hour race or not - I don't recall it either, I just presumed it to have been because of the rain and the finishing times. But I know there have been races that were stopped at two hours, so the point I was making is still (kind of) relevant. But please, no reason to get hung up on this.

 

 

* Let's not forget, the Argentine Grand Prix was run to the three-hour limit for several years in the fifties, but I have always seen the results presented in the traditional fashion!


Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2022 - 09:06.


#42 ReWind

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 11:10

The extract from L'Equipe seems clear but it means that, if the leader had a slow final lap he could lose the race even though he led the race from start to finish - however that is defined. I hope it never happened.

 

 

Which is why I think it's hogwash. Taking the last lap to determine the virtual distance covered is a lot more complicated, offers no advantages (as it will always be a *virtual* distance, no matter how you arrive at it), and can lead to numerous awkward situations after the finish. Like, as in Roger's example, having a car that was never headed throughout the contest finish in second place - how do you sell that to the public?

I would love to see mathematical evidence that it is possible that a driver who leads the race before the 3-hour-mark loses the race because of a slow final lap (during which he passes the 3-hour-mark) despite crossing the finish line still in first place. If the second-placed driver is hot on his heels he will pass the leader on the road. If the second-placed driver is so far behind that he fails to overtake the struggling leader he will not be able to add sufficient mileage to surpass the distance covered in 3 hours by the leader.

The only fault of taking to final lap to determine the virtual distance covered in 3 hours is a scenario of the leader passing the 3-hour-mark but dropping out afterwards before the finish line so he never produces a last lap time from which to calculate the virtual distance.



#43 68targa

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 12:28


However, I am intrigued to learn that you have the individual lap times from La Baule - I only have those of the Pau Grand Prix, but sadly (as is so often the case with race timing in that period), they don't add up correctly, and without additional information it's almost impossible to find and correct those msitakes. I would love to get to the bottom of this, and since I have developed a spread sheet for the purpose of examining individual race lap times, can I ask you to make a copy available to me? Does Autocourse have lap times for other three hour races as well?* I'd love to get my teeth into this!

I'll jump in here since I already have a scan of the Autocourse lap chart and to save others finding their copy I have sent this to Michael's email.


Edited by 68targa, 25 June 2022 - 13:06.


#44 GazChed

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 12:52

I suspect the reason the individual lap times don't add up is because they are timed, in La Baule's case, to the nearest tenth of a second. If timed to the nearest hundredth, the lap times could be as much as .05 seconds per lap different. (La Baule's fastest lap was 2.01.1. Measured to 2 decimal places it could be anywhere between 2.01.05 and 2.01.14). Multiply this by La Baule's 87 laps and you could have difference of 4.35 seconds over the race distance. This applies of course no matter how many decimal places races are timed in, hence why overall race times will rarely equal the total of individual race times.

Edited by GazChed, 25 June 2022 - 13:15.


#45 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 15:13

I would love to see mathematical evidence that it is possible that a driver who leads the race before the 3-hour-mark loses the race because of a slow final lap (during which he passes the 3-hour-mark) despite crossing the finish line still in first place. If the second-placed driver is hot on his heels he will pass the leader on the road. If the second-placed driver is so far behind that he fails to overtake the struggling leader he will not be able to add sufficient mileage to surpass the distance covered in 3 hours by the leader.

The only fault of taking to final lap to determine the virtual distance covered in 3 hours is a scenario of the leader passing the 3-hour-mark but dropping out afterwards before the finish line so he never produces a last lap time from which to calculate the virtual distance.

I think you're quite right in the first para.  On the second, I found a note in The Motor that "last lap" means the last full lap before 3 hours.



#46 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 17:20

Yes, Reinhard is quite right with the first assessment; I didn't really think that through. But there are several other issues possible, e.g. if the leader loses a lot of time on the last lap (by spinning, stopping at the pits etc) which could alter the results irrespective of whther they happen before or after the 3 hour limit is passed. So, you could have the leader dropping to second even though he was still leading at the point, or keeping the lead even though he was already passed. None of which would be exactly what was the objective of that rule in the first place.

 

Roger, I don't quite understand why they would want to take the time of the penultimate lap :confused: That seems to make even less sense to me.



#47 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 17:26

I suspect the reason the individual lap times don't add up is because they are timed, in La Baule's case, to the nearest tenth of a second. If timed to the nearest hundredth, the lap times could be as much as .05 seconds per lap different. (La Baule's fastest lap was 2.01.1. Measured to 2 decimal places it could be anywhere between 2.01.05 and 2.01.14). Multiply this by La Baule's 87 laps and you could have difference of 4.35 seconds over the race distance. This applies of course no matter how many decimal places races are timed in, hence why overall race times will rarely equal the total of individual race times.

 

Er, no. [oops, I did it again! :blush:  :wave: ]

 

Clocks don't work like that, they don't round up times. If the timing shows 2'01.1", then it can be anything between 2'01.10" and 2'01.19" in hundreths, and if the next timing shows 4'02.1", then that can mean anything between 4'02.10" and 4'02.19", but in all 100 possible permutations the second lap time will always be 2'01.0" in tenths.


Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 June 2022 - 17:26.


#48 RAP

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 18:22

Individual lap times not adding to the published total race time is something I’ve noticed too at various events. As Michael rightly says, using a chronograph watch with cumulative and pause features means that any error of pressing the button or writing down the cumulative time on a lap will auto-correct on the next lap so the cumulative time is not affected. The lap time for possible fastest lap is, of course, affected and as an aside I’m pretty sure Villoresi’s fastest lap at La Baule is a timing error.

 

It seems to me that the most likely causes are

-        Timekeeper makes a mistake subtracting one cumulative time from the preceding one

-        Error when the cumulative time is transcribed from the timekeeper’s sheet on to the result sheet

-        Typing error when secretary is typing up the hand written sheets for issue to the press

-        Printing error in the journal reproducing the data

i.e. good old human error

It is worth remembering that all is this taking place under great time-pressure to get the results out.

I would be most interested to hear other ideas.

Richard



#49 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 June 2022 - 20:14

Villoresi was credited with fastest lap 2'01.1" on lap 17.  His three laps prior to that were 2'04.9, 2'04.1"and 2'09.1".  If the clock was stopped a few seconds late on lap 16 it would explain both the slow time on that lap and the fastest lap.



#50 Sterzo

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Posted 26 June 2022 - 12:49

Lowering the tone of this thread to its very bottom level, here are the cars from that race.

 

labaulecars.jpg

 

And before the pedants revolt....  I know that Behra wasn't using his chequered band helmet in 1952: I don't know Alberto Crespo's helmet colour and Jean Lucas' Cooper Bristol probably wasn't dark blue.

 

 

This is absolutely terrific. A breathtaking achievement, and extra-pleasing that you chose this race rather than a more obvious one.