Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Should we allow budget increase mid season


  • Please log in to reply
192 replies to this topic

Poll: Should the budget be increased mid season. (163 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the budget be increased mid season

  1. Yes (34 votes [20.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.86%

  2. No (117 votes [71.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.78%

  3. To maintain safe car only. (5 votes [3.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.07%

  4. Dont know, Dont care. (7 votes [4.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.29%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 chrcol

chrcol
  • Member

  • 2,884 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:15

RB lobbying for it.   Vote away.



Advertisement

#2 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 7,108 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:24

No.



#3 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:26

RB lobbying for it.   Vote away.

 

7 of 10 teams...

 

 

 

Initially, it was mainly the biggest teams, including Red Bull and Mercedes, who were arguing the loudest about a budget cap increase, but now McLaren and Aston Martin have joined their ranks.

Only Alpine, Alfa Romeo and the Haas F1 Team are opposed to a budget cap increase now.

https://www.autoweek...-f1-budget-cap/



#4 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:28

Aston Martin's take on why Cap Increase is needed:https://racingnews36...st-cap-increase

 

 

 

"The reason why we support it is mainly because the increasing costs are real - inflation is not something that has been invented.

"So, as long as the approach for inflation management in the regulations is reasonable, which it is [in] the proposals, we will support it.


"But, as I said, the situation in Russia and Ukraine drove the energy prices extremely high, air freight is very high. This you could not plan in any budget. So that's also why we support an increase based on inflation, but not an increase per see.

Edited by ARTGP, 24 June 2022 - 12:28.


#5 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 21,766 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:29

I don't think it's totally unreasonable to raise it in the same proportion as the unexpected increase in inflation. More than that, no.

#6 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:30

Mclaren's supports of cost cap increase:

 

 

“We are in the middle of the season now, everyone has prepared for the season in order to somehow run at the cap and with these exceptional circumstances and these rises it’s pretty much impossible to still stick to the cap.

“That’s why I think it’s just fair to discuss solutions between all teams. And that means, from our point of view, it would be fair to increase the cap maybe linked to these specific costs that have increased significantly.”

 

The additional costs teams are facing run to “several millions”, said Seidl, “”because that’s the increase we see in freight costs, for example.”

https://www.racefans...-costs-mclaren/



#7 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 7,108 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:31

It strikes me as the only teams that want to have it changed, are the teams that are likely to have spend/allocated all their money already and are subsequently finding out that inflation is holding them back now. Tough luck, i'd say.



#8 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:31

Mercedes support of cost cap increase: https://the-race.com...-row-escalates/

 

 

Mercedes trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin argued that the claim development spending could be reduced was not a logical one.

He stressed that Mercedes structured its spending to be within the cap, but that the dramatic increases in costs means the problem is now insurmountable.
“Early on, we had a plan to land on the budget cap and work within it as I’m sure everybody did,” said Shovlin.

“Then as costs like the freight were coming in at being multiples of that, or energy and just the effect of inflation, that’s gone from being looking at ways to peg it back to stay within to a point where the challenge becomes insurmountable.


Edited by ARTGP, 24 June 2022 - 12:32.


#9 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 9,052 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:33

Yes, where those budget increases are due to inflation. It isn't right that teams should have to make redundancies due to inflationary costs meaning they fall foul of the budget cap.

It's people's livelihoods atstake, after all. Why not create an exception that allows teams to give a payrise to their staff in line with inflation?

#10 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:33

Ferrari support cost cap increase:

 

 

Binotto believes many teams will breach the cost cap as a result of what he considers “force majeure” circumstances.

“There will be no way for us to stay below [the cost cap], so I’m pretty sure that at one stage we will go over,” said Binotto when asked by The Race what the consequences would be if the cost cap was not raised.

“But I don’t think there is any way for us, and for many teams, to stay within [the cost cap].

“And even laying off people, firstly I don’t think the right choice.

“It’s already summer time, by the time you organise it and you do it the benefit it can have is not sufficient to cope with the excess of prices and cost we’ve got.”

https://the-race.com...-row-escalates/



#11 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 7,108 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:36

Yes, where those budget increases are due to inflation. It isn't right that teams should have to make redundancies due to inflationary costs meaning they fall foul of the budget cap.

It's people's livelihoods atstake, after all. Why not create an exception that allows teams to give a payrise to their staff in line with inflation?

 

On that I do agree. So some leniency by the FIA towards teams that can prove inflation has pushed them over the budget limit and subsequently not punishing them, is a better solution rather than increasing the budget. But teams have to prove that they were within the budget at the time the inflation hit and what the inflation calculation was/is in order to breach this limit.


Edited by Beri, 24 June 2022 - 12:37.


#12 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 14,691 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:42

Who is "we" ?

 

Me and you don't have any say in this ....



#13 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 13,560 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:43

It's people's livelihoods atstake, after all. Why not create an exception that allows teams to give a payrise to their staff in line with inflation?


Accept Andretti and theres job openings!

Not entirely serious, but a tiny bit.

#14 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 13,560 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:44

7 of 10 teams...


From what I learned in the porpoising-thread. We are supposed to ignore all but one team. Then it depends on who you support, what team is getting the flak.

#15 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 15,725 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:46

How do I interprete the ‘to maintain safe car only’ option? An allowance for an budget increase only for teams suffering from bouncing/porpoising?



#16 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 3,842 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:48

I am very against any increase in the budget cap for this year.  The teams knew the rules, several have chosen to gamble that they would get an exception, and I would like to see the mayhem of teams running out of budget due to their poor judgement. 



#17 SCEPurple

SCEPurple
  • Member

  • 291 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:49

Screw the cost cap, but keep wind tunnel restrictions, allowing less competitive teams more running

#18 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 7,636 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:50

No, Horner can suck it. 



#19 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,829 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:56

I vote no. If the FIA allow it now, then it will be faced with the same demands every year.

Advertisement

#20 Mark521

Mark521
  • Member

  • 354 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:20

While I voted No, I guess I could support an "overspend penalty" of say 10 to 1, with the penalty money split between the Teams that didn't overspend.



#21 FullOppositeLock

FullOppositeLock
  • Member

  • 9,843 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:27

I suppose all those who vote no will out of principle refrain from pointing out inflation rates next time they sit down with their employer/clients to discuss salary/hourly rate terms?



#22 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:27

From what I learned in the porpoising-thread. We are supposed to ignore all but one team. Then it depends on who you support, what team is getting the flak.

 

False equivalence. Atleast 7 team principals were against mid-season rules changes for porpoising.  


Edited by ARTGP, 24 June 2022 - 13:28.


#23 FullOppositeLock

FullOppositeLock
  • Member

  • 9,843 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:31

I don't think it's totally unreasonable to raise it in the same proportion as the unexpected increase in inflation. More than that, no.

 

This is obviously the right thing to do for those looking at this pragmatically. UK inflation rates are at 9% as we speak. Freight rates may be significantly higher than that. I don't think people realise the impact this may have for the livelihood of teams and the people they employ. FIA may well have to step in to help out (smaller) teams struggling to make ends meet if this continues.



#24 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,829 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:37

This is obviously the right thing to do for those looking at this pragmatically. UK inflation rates are at 9% as we speak. Freight rates may be significantly higher than that. I don't think people realise the impact this may have for the livelihood of teams and the people they employ. FIA may well have to step in to help out (smaller) teams struggling to make ends meet if this continues.

 


So how does a budget increase help them if they are struggling to make ends meet?

#25 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 584 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:39

Yes, where those budget increases are due to inflation. It isn't right that teams should have to make redundancies due to inflationary costs meaning they fall foul of the budget cap.

It's people's livelihoods atstake, after all. Why not create an exception that allows teams to give a payrise to their staff in line with inflation?

 

The budget cap forced many teams to reduce staff size in the first place, so I don't put much weight on this argument.



#26 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 584 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:42

This is obviously the right thing to do for those looking at this pragmatically. UK inflation rates are at 9% as we speak. Freight rates may be significantly higher than that. I don't think people realise the impact this may have for the livelihood of teams and the people they employ. FIA may well have to step in to help out (smaller) teams struggling to make ends meet if this continues.

 

Steiner said that an adjustment for freight would be acceptable to him as it is all handled by F1 making it easy to monitor/enforce.

 

He also pointed out that the teams are paid in dollars which has seen it's value increase versus the pound and euro which are used to pay the teams expenses, reducing the true impact of inflation.



#27 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 3,961 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:43

I suppose all those who vote no will out of principle refrain from pointing out inflation rates next time they sit down with their employer/clients to discuss salary/hourly rate terms?

That's not the issue. If these whining teams had only $140m or less (like Haas), they would find a way to make do. Teams have been extraordinary creative in making a budget stretch when necessary.

 

The problem is that the complaining teams know that they can get more money from their owners or sponsors and want that extra money to fuel their quest for additional speed because they are either not performing as desired or caught up in a close title fight.

 

Unfortunately for them, the idea behind the budget cap is not just to ensure the survivability of all teams but to push them closer together.

So teams running out of (development) money is actually a design feature as it will allow smarter or simply more frugal teams to close the gap or move ahead....and more competition is what we all want. 



#28 Bartonz20let

Bartonz20let
  • Member

  • 1,652 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:46

Personally think the cost cap is too tight anyway.

I'm in to Formula 1, pinnacle of motorsport not, Formula Budget, pinnacle of frugality.

#29 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 584 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:49

 

Unfortunately for them, the idea behind the budget cap is not just to ensure the survivability of all teams but to push them closer together.

So teams running out of (development) money is actually a design feature as it will allow smarter or simply more frugal teams to close the gap or move ahead....and more competition is what we all want. 

 

Bingo.

 

Surprisingly those begging the most for an increase are the ones bringing updates to the track most every race. 

 

Well, that's not really a surprise...


Edited by BoDarvelle, 24 June 2022 - 13:54.


#30 FullOppositeLock

FullOppositeLock
  • Member

  • 9,843 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 24 June 2022 - 13:51

So how does a budget increase help them if they are struggling to make ends meet?

 

It doesn't. The budget increase would help the teams that have funding in place but underestimated the almost unprecedented amount of inflation we see today. As I said, a follow up problem may come whereby teams simply run out of funding. That separate problem that is also a result of these inflation levels may well also need to be resolved later in the year. 



#31 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,219 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:04

 

April 12th. Since then, Mick totalled a few cars. He will do that until Steiner supports Ferrari.  :rotfl:

 

The budget cap forced many teams to reduce staff size in the first place, so I don't put much weight on this argument.

 

Those factories don't run on nothing. Utilities have had steep price increases as well.

 

Steiner said that an adjustment for freight would be acceptable to him as it is all handled by F1 making it easy to monitor/enforce.

 

He also pointed out that the teams are paid in dollars which has seen it's value increase versus the pound and euro which are used to pay the teams expenses, reducing the true impact of inflation.

 

Only Haas is an US team and Liberty. Most are based in Europe with a weakening Pound or Euro.



#32 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,182 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:07

Yes, but only to cover the increased costs of freight.



#33 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 584 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:07

 

 

Only Haas is an US team and Liberty. Most are based in Europe with a weakening Pound or Euro.

 

I don't think you follow. The teams, ALL teams, are paid in dollars by Liberty. The budget is $140 million US dollars. Not euros. Not pounds. The dollar increasing in value compared to the pound/euro offsets a good chunk of the inflation some teams are crying about.

 

Utilities when talking salaries? Misdirection.


Edited by BoDarvelle, 24 June 2022 - 14:12.


#34 MasterOfCoin

MasterOfCoin
  • Member

  • 4,129 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:09

It strikes me as the only teams that want to have it changed, are the teams that are likely to have spend/allocated all their money already and are subsequently finding out that inflation is holding them back now. Tough luck, i'd say.

They are also the ones that have ambition and are not just here to collect the prize money at the end of the year.....  ;)


Edited by MasterOfCoin, 24 June 2022 - 14:09.


#35 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 4,759 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:13

For those who voted 'No':

 

Would any amount of cost inflation justify lifting the cost cap? For you is it a matter of principle or is it a question of degree?



#36 GentlemanDriver091

GentlemanDriver091
  • Member

  • 932 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:16

That's not the issue. If these whining teams had only $140m or less (like Haas), they would find a way to make do. Teams have been extraordinary creative in making a budget stretch when necessary.

Yup, teams like Haas would spend more than they have and end the season with a financial loss.

Other teams do have more budget but can’t spend it because of the cap.

It’s not that hard and it makes perfectly sense to apply an annual rate of increase at the level of the inflation, so teams can spend what the budget cap, initially was setup for.

#37 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 584 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:18

For those who voted 'No':

 

Would any amount of cost inflation justify lifting the cost cap? For you is it a matter of principle or is it a question of degree?

 The Concorde agreement has a mechanism to adjust for inflation. Use that.

 

It should also be noted that the budget cap base figure, before any inflation adjustment, is $135 million next year iirc. Boosting the budget midseason when it is supposed to lower next year will simply destroy the whole idea of a cap.

 

Basically some of these teams, those that still claim to have 800+ employees, apparently had little intention of following the cap in the first place. And the rate at which they are bringing updates it looks like they are refusing to change their plans midstream, but rather expecting an adjustment to save them from themselves.



#38 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 13,560 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:23

For those who voted 'No':

Would any amount of cost inflation justify lifting the cost cap? For you is it a matter of principle or is it a question of degree?


Inflation adjustments is usually done once a year, no?

#39 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:40

April 12th. Since then, Mick totalled a few cars. He will do that until Steiner supports Ferrari.  :rotfl:

 

 

 

   :rotfl:


Edited by ARTGP, 24 June 2022 - 14:40.


Advertisement

#40 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 June 2022 - 14:43

I suspect that teams might resort to only fitting only the higher placed driver in the WDC with upgrades in the later stages of the season.


Edited by ARTGP, 24 June 2022 - 14:43.


#41 GentlemanDriver091

GentlemanDriver091
  • Member

  • 932 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:07

It should also be noted that the budget cap base figure, before any inflation adjustment, is $135 million next year iirc. Boosting the budget midseason when it is supposed to lower next year will simply destroy the whole idea of a cap.

How will it destroy the budget cap? The top teams already came down from > 400 million to 140 million.

Would it make any difference to correct the budget cap for inflation?

#42 BleuMurmure

BleuMurmure
  • Member

  • 68 posts
  • Joined: June 22

Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:09

No.

 

They should adjust it for next year.

 

All the big players will overspend anyway



#43 MasterOfCoin

MasterOfCoin
  • Member

  • 4,129 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:15

I suspect that teams might resort to only fitting only the higher placed driver in the WDC with upgrades in the later stages of the season.

Wait for the outrage if teams start to outsource parts from China to save money... :lol:



#44 Cliff

Cliff
  • Member

  • 1,785 posts
  • Joined: June 16

Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:15

Yes, adjust for inflation. Nothing more.

#45 Viryfan

Viryfan
  • Member

  • 3,554 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 24 June 2022 - 16:09

Bring a luxury tax in.

Adjust the budget in line with inflation and then take a quote matching that number from prize money and give that money to teams staying within budget cap.

Edited by Viryfan, 24 June 2022 - 16:09.


#46 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 3,842 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 24 June 2022 - 16:35

How about 1 point deduction per $100k USD in excess of the budget cap?  

 

Nah, I still say there should be no increase.  The teams complaining are the ones who blew their development budgets and are not acting in good faith.



#47 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,219 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 June 2022 - 16:44

I don't think you follow. The teams, ALL teams, are paid in dollars by Liberty. The budget is $140 million US dollars. Not euros. Not pounds. The dollar increasing in value compared to the pound/euro offsets a good chunk of the inflation some teams are crying about.

Utilities when talking salaries? Misdirection.


It isn't about what Liberty pays you. It is what the teams pay for everything. Almost every team has a wind tunnel and it uses energy like no other. A team could spend a few million on electricity to run everything.

#48 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,829 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 24 June 2022 - 16:47

It isn't about what Liberty pays you. It is what the teams pay for everything. Almost every team has a wind tunnel and it uses energy like no other. A team could spend a few million on electricity to run everything.

 


Does the power come from the grid, or do they have their own generators?

#49 GentlemanDriver091

GentlemanDriver091
  • Member

  • 932 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 24 June 2022 - 16:53


Does the power come from the grid, or do they have their own generators?

Most of them of the grid i guess, you don’t have that much solar power in sunny Britain.

#50 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 9,271 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 24 June 2022 - 16:56

No.