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#1 tonyed

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Posted 27 June 2022 - 13:18

When asked about the 'flimsiness' of the new one piece race suit that he was developing and its' perceived lack of protection for the rider when crashing Mr Duke replied along the lines of 'The art is not to crash'

We now have the 'premier' series of our sport where it appears to be 'de rigueur' to crash at every available opportunity so the rider can gauge the limit of adhesion, thus then being able to back it off a smidge so as their performance is at its' peak.

I find this incredibly difficult to comprehend.

I know that the occasional trip to the 'upside down world' is inevitable when racing motorcycles, sometimes due to 'pushing the envelope'  :well: , unfortunate circumstance  :( , bad luck  :cry:  or sometimes (heaven forbid) downright incompetence.

I know as I have crashed due to all of these circumstances in the past.

However to deliberately crash does seem a somewhat foolhardy method of 'gathering data' so you have the data banked that will ensure you don't fall off in the race, where it counts and then, in some occasions fall off again in the race loosing more ground in the championship to riders who avoided doing so.

I have several proposals that I think may help to curtail the win or bust mentality of many of todays competitors:

1. Crash more than once in free practice an whatever your free practice time and position you go straight into Q1

2. Crash during qualifying and if it is in Q1 despite your position at the end of Q1 you do not advance Q2

3. Crash during Q2 and you lose your fastest Q2 lap time, this would include any action that resulted in the deployment of a 'yellow', such as running into the gravel at the end of the start/finish straight to deliberately inconvenience following riders who lose their lap due to safety reasons. If the telemetry shows a deliberate act of late braking to trigger this is it classified as 'cheating, and the rider incurs a ban from starting that race.

4. Line the circuits with close to the track edge 'Armco barrier', just like in my day. This encouraged a non-crash mentality, however it did not prevent entirely the odd 'spill' and may not be considered to be a viable proposal but merely thought provoking.

5. Riders who are guilty of proceeding on the track at anything but race pace, waiting for 'tow' etc start the race for pit lane.

6. Riders who continually act in anyway to flout these regulations are given a three race suspension, two 3 race suspensions results in a season long ban.  

 

Proposal 1-3 there would be some discretion left for 'Race Control' to lift such penalties if it can be seen that the crasher has been 'unlawfully' tampered with in which case the rider causing the incident takes the penalty. :wave:


Edited by tonyed, 27 June 2022 - 13:19.


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#2 Zoe

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Posted 27 June 2022 - 13:54

 

4. Line the circuits with close to the track edge 'Armco barrier', just like in my day. This encouraged a non-crash mentality, however it did not prevent entirely the odd 'spill' and may not be considered to be a viable proposal but merely thought provoking.

 

 

I'm just imagining (not!) a highsider with the rider landing on the Armco. *shudder*



#3 tonyed

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Posted 27 June 2022 - 14:58

I'm just imagining (not!) a highsider with the rider landing on the Armco. *shudder*

Bit tongue in cheek with that one. Having hit armco barrier at speed at the old Bomb Hole at Snetterton in 1978 I do know its' destructive power.

I still have constant excruciating backpain today as a result of the vertebrae damage.



#4 HP

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Posted 27 June 2022 - 15:19

If the teams asks their riders to pay for fixing their bikes things would change quickly.

 

However I think that with modern bikes extracting every ounce of performance, margins for mistakes have become smaller. I shudder to think how I'd want to catch a slide over both tires on a patch of ice. Happened to me long time ago, but with today's bikes, yikes..



#5 GregThomas

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Posted 27 June 2022 - 19:28

Eddie Lawson was known and seen to practice front end "loses" - without crashing. On the bikes of the day, it could be done. I have no idea what happens when the design envelope is exceeded with current electronics. 

Margins may possibly be smaller - a combination of grip levels, electronics and bike mass and speed. Bigger, heavier bikes are undoubtedly harder to pull back once over the edge.

But Moto3 bikes would seem to be just as hard to recover. Light bike and very high grip levels - once the tyre is sliding highsides seem to be the result.



#6 10kDA

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Posted 28 June 2022 - 03:18

I have to wonder if it's due to the grip characteristics of today's tires. Maybe the feedback or lack of doesn't allow a rider to get a sense of the limit any other way.



#7 tonyed

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Posted 28 June 2022 - 09:42

Having suffered multiple injuries racing back in the 60s-80s which still plague me today I do not wish to see riders suffer material injury due to crashes. Obviously many of todays circuits are much safer with larger run off areas, less armco, less 4 inch diameter wooden posts connected by fence wire, so the lack of perceived injury threat encourages the riders to, in many cases, ride beyond the capabilities of themselves as riders and the machines performance.

The commentators call it 'biting the screen', just hanging on and hoping to put in one mega fast lap and all too often end up binning it. This brings out the yellow flag and until the marshals clear the miscreant and the wreckage away all other competitors are unable to put in their fast laps. During a 15 minute qualifying session, multiple crashes can loose those who do not crash considerable time.

There are quite a few in each of the 3 classes who are serial crashers, but there is no 'punishment' for them, providing they don't crash under a 'yellow' the 'punishment' is too the other riders.

Perhaps a 'yellow' and 'red' card system as in football, where the crashes of the persistent miscreants tot up until punishment is exacted. 

Whatever - no one in the 'management' of the sport, either Race Direction or the Rule makers seems bothered by this they are far more interested in a slight infringements of the track limit, rather than addressing riders who persistently prevent full use of the short time available in qualifying.


Edited by tonyed, 28 June 2022 - 14:10.


#8 GregThomas

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Posted 28 June 2022 - 20:49

Agree completely. There should be some penalty for a crash other than machine damage,  From the riders perspective the current circuits make crashing - or at least a fall - pretty much penalty free. It'd be interesting to find out if any of the teams give a financial penalty to the riders for damage costs. There are several current riders that, if I were a team boss, I'd write damage cost recovery clauses into any contract.



#9 tonyed

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 05:43

The culprits - https://www.mcnews.c...d-moto3-riders/



#10 GregThomas

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 07:57

It's worse that I thought. Interesting that two families score very highly.

 

Why LeMans at the top of the circuits ?   Tighter than some of the others ?



#11 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 13:43

They say it was a "predominantly wet weekend".   ;)



#12 tonyed

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 14:49

It's worse that I thought. Interesting that two families score very highly.

 

Why LeMans at the top of the circuits ?   Tighter than some of the others ?

Go on - give me a clue who they might be.  :clap:

If it were triplets the marshals might not be able to cope.

Perhaps a trip to the TT might sort them out. :cool:



#13 GregThomas

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 19:03

That's one thing about growing up around NZ street circuits - it teaches you that falling has consequences.



#14 tonyed

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Posted 06 August 2022 - 16:21

Time in MotoGP to have one lap individual qualifying so the fast riders don't get to tow the 'caravans' round.

Either that or qualifying is based on the average of the fastest laps, say 7, instead of the fastest laps by the one lap wonders.

Still better, the top six, enter the cage and have bare knuckle fight, last standing is on pole.

Better still than that even, we have qualifying on a Saturday night hosted by Ant and Dec and the viewers vote each contestant off during the show, or they are all sent to desert Island where they have to survive, without a crew chief and hospitality for 14 days living only on replays of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well just a thought  :wave:     


Edited by tonyed, 06 August 2022 - 16:22.


#15 Revetts

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 10:58

I think you are right about GP qualifying in ALL the classes. Your (tongue in cheek?) suggestion re. average lap times is an interesting idea that ought to be considered by the GP organisers. It seems like now the idea is to set a fast lap by any means and then deliberately run off track, or whatever it takes, to prevent any other riders bettering it. Bike racing, as suggested on here and elsewhere, is in serious danger of going the same way as F1.  ):