Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Should George Russell have been let back in the race?


  • Please log in to reply
113 replies to this topic

Poll: Stopping to help (247 member(s) have cast votes)

Should George have been let back after the red flag ?

  1. Yes (19 votes [7.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  2. No (223 votes [90.28%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.28%

  3. My response is more complicated and I will explain in the comments (5 votes [2.02%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.02%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,787 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:08

Russell claims he stopped entirely to help Zhou. On the face of it, I thought no, too bad. Noble stuff but those are the rules,but on the other hand, it may deter someone stopping to help in future? Just a thought. What do you think?



Advertisement

#2 Red5ive

Red5ive
  • Member

  • 1,131 posts
  • Joined: May 20

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:10

No - but only because, by his own admission, he couldnt start the car.



#3 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 584 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:10

What does the rule say?

 

Easy answer; No



#4 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 21,425 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:10

Russell's car was pretty beat up.  Really doubt Merc could have got it back in racing shape in just an hour.  

 

Making it sound like he just politely pulled over to help somebody, and ya know, wasn't getting out of a car that was pretty clearly F'd and marshalls understandably working to get it moved ASAP, is a huge stretch, sorry George. 


Edited by Seanspeed, 03 July 2022 - 17:11.


#5 MastaKink

MastaKink
  • Member

  • 4,318 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:12

Russell claims he stopped entirely to help Zhou. On the face of it, I thought no, too bad. Noble stuff but those are the rules,but on the other hand, it may deter someone stopping to help in future? Just a thought. What do you think?

 

In a competitive sport it would be taken advantage of I fear so voted no. You'd save an awful lot of damage not having to go back to the pits yourself and in any repeat they'd all just park it.

 

There's guys there to look after any driver in trouble so not a precedent I'd want tbh.



#6 MaxisOne

MaxisOne
  • Member

  • 2,278 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:22

Couldn't get the car back to the pits under its own power ... no.



#7 Clrnc

Clrnc
  • Member

  • 4,869 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:24

In the end it wasn't entirely to help someone so nope. Just a stretch by Russell. 



#8 Rumblestrip

Rumblestrip
  • Member

  • 643 posts
  • Joined: December 20

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:24

If he was able to I'm sure he would've done, just like all the others dragging debris round the circuit on their way back.



#9 ToniF1

ToniF1
  • Member

  • 1,126 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:24

It was a turned off car with no rear left. He is delusional.



#10 chrcol

chrcol
  • Member

  • 2,884 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:28

No, rules are rules, we already have inconsistencies to deal with.


Edited by chrcol, 03 July 2022 - 17:28.


#11 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,584 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:29

What does the rule say?



#12 Coral

Coral
  • Member

  • 5,754 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:31

No, because his car came back on a flatbed truck! I'm sorry for him but rules are rules.



#13 JimmyClark

JimmyClark
  • Member

  • 2,289 posts
  • Joined: July 20

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:33

No. Even if it was repairable and raceable, him stopping did nothing to help the recovery situation at the barriers. If anything it just thins out resources possibly.

#14 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 7,589 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:33

No, of course not. 

But good on him for trying. 



#15 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,285 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:46

Short answer is no; but good on him for trying to help.

 

We've seen people in the past who have benefited from protracted Red Flags to restart when they couldn't otherwise have done so.  But not after stopping on track and getting out.



#16 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 6,445 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:47

No.  That being said, why criticise him for checking on Zhou?



#17 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 7,108 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:47

Ofcourse not. What was he thinking he could do better than the Marshalls? Noble none the less, but silly as well. And using that as an excuse is a bit over the edge.

#18 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,787 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:55

Ofcourse not. What was he thinking he could do better than the Marshalls? Noble none the less, but silly as well. And using that as an excuse is a bit over the edge.

Well it did look like he deliberately stopped the car, so I presume he is sincere in saying he stopped to help so is it really an excuse? I mean I voted No too but I didn’t think he was lying.



#19 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 6,415 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:57

No, he couldn’t start the car so he needed outside assistance, so by the rules it’s clear.

Good on him for going to assist though. But I think he was already getting out anyway.

Edited by messy, 03 July 2022 - 17:58.


Advertisement

#20 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 7,108 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 17:58

Well, to me it looked as if he got out and then realized what happened an ran over to Zhou.
Which is, again, quite the noble act. But one knows that if you are getting out of the car, you're done for the race. To use it as a reason to be let in the race again (better wording than it being an excuse) is pushing it. In my opinion that is.

Edited by Beri, 03 July 2022 - 17:59.


#21 ColeTrickle44

ColeTrickle44
  • Member

  • 807 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 03 July 2022 - 18:02

Rules are rules. They should ALWAYS be applied to the letter.

#22 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 36,431 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 July 2022 - 18:05

Good on him for going to check on Zhou, but once you're out, you're out.



#23 flyboym3

flyboym3
  • Member

  • 1,042 posts
  • Joined: July 21

Posted 03 July 2022 - 18:08

Yes, extenuating circumstances.

If a fire started he could pull the driver out.

#24 Beri

Beri
  • Member

  • 7,108 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 18:10

Yes, extenuating circumstances.
If a fire started he could pull the driver out.


It's the right thing to do. But it also means you're out of the race. Simple as that.

#25 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 20,787 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 18:12

Yes, extenuating circumstances.

If a fire started he could pull the driver out.

It’s true that drivers do have the edge over the track marshals on the track so I didn’t think of the potential fire fighting thing even as I’m still regretfully on ‘no dice, George.



#26 SidepodDavid

SidepodDavid
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: May 22

Posted 03 July 2022 - 20:33

He didn't get back to the pits under his power, so no. Had he drove the car back to the pits himself he could have restarted. The rule that you can't restart if you have to get outside assistance is one that is present in a number of series. Him supposedly stopping to check on Guanyu is irrelevant here,  as that is not the reason he was not able to restart. It would have been interesting to see if he would have even been able to make it back anyway.

 

He was ultimately the cause of the incident even if it was a racing incident also so there is little sympathy from me.


Edited by SidepodDavid, 03 July 2022 - 21:01.


#27 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,086 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 20:41

No, he couldn’t start the car so he needed outside assistance, so by the rules it’s clear.

Good on him for going to assist though. But I think he was already getting out anyway.

Even if he would have got the car started he still would have needed help to get strapped in, wouldn't he? You're not allowed to drive back to the pits with the seat belts undone.



#28 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,201 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 03 July 2022 - 20:42

Did he get back to pits on his own? No? That is the answer. 

 

Had it not been George and we were not in Silverstone this thread would not be even started. 



#29 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 5,199 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 03 July 2022 - 20:45

Even if he would have got the car started he still would have needed help to get strapped in, wouldn't he? You're not allowed to drive back to the pits with the seat belts undone.

Unless you are called Leclerc.

#30 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,086 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 20:52

Unless you are called Leclerc.

TodtLeclerc-2.jpg



#31 Youichi

Youichi
  • Member

  • 3,374 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:10

Can anyone point me at the rule which says you have to make it back to the pits under your own steam ?

 

The 2022 sporting rules at at https://www.fia.com/..._2022-04-29.pdf

 

Section 57 covers race stoppages, and says :-
 

 

57) SUSPENDING A SPRINT SESSION OR A RACE
57.1 If Competitors or officials are placed in immediate physical danger by cars running on
the track, and the clerk of the course deems circumstances are such that the track cannot
be negotiated safely, even behind the safety car, the sprint session or the race will be
suspended.

Should it become necessary to suspend the sprint session or the race, the clerk of the
course will order red flags to be shown at all marshal posts and the abort lights to be
shown at the Line.

57.2 When the signal is given overtaking is forbidden, the pit exit will be closed and all cars
must proceed slowly into the pit lane. The first car to arrive in the pit lane should proceed
directly to the pit exit staying in the fast lane, all the other cars should form up in a line
behind the first car.

57.3 Any cars unable to return to the pit lane as a result of the track being blocked will be
brought back when the track is cleared and will be arranged in the order they occupied
before the sprint session or the race was suspended.

Additionally, any cars in the pit lane or pit entry at the time the sprint session or the race
was suspended will be arranged in the order they occupied before the sprint session or
the race was suspended. Any cars in their garage at the time the sprint session or the
race was suspended will be arranged at the back of the line of cars in the fast lane in the
order they got there. Any such cars will be permitted to leave the pit lane when the sprint
session or the race is resumed but must re-enter the pit lane when the safety car returns
and may join the sprint session or the race once the last car has passed the pit exit after
the re-start (also see Article 58.11).

In all cases the order will be taken at the last point at which it was possible to determine
the position of all cars. All such cars will then be permitted to resume the sprint session
or the race.

The Safety Car will then be driven to the front of the line of cars in the fast lane.
57.4 Whilst the sprint session or the race is suspended:
a) The sprint session, the race nor the timekeeping system will stop, however, in
accordance with Article 5.3 the length of the sprint session or the race suspension
will be added to the maximum time period.

b) Cars may be worked on once they have stopped in the fast lane but any such work
is restricted to that listed in Articles 57.4b)i) to ix) and must not impede the
resumption of the sprint session or the race.

i) Starting the engine and any directly associated preparation.
ii) The addition of compressed gases (see Article 4.5 of the Technical
Regulations).

iii) The fitting or removal of permitted cooling and heating devices.
iv) Changes to the air ducts around the front and rear brakes during the race
only.


v) Changes to the radiator ducts during the race only.
vi) Changes made for driver comfort.
vii) Changing wheels and tyres.
viii) Repair of genuine accident damage, as specified in Article 40.2u), including
the replacement of assemblies containing such damaged parts.

ix) The aerodynamic set up of the front wing may be adjusted using the existing
parts. No parts may be added, removed or replaced.

c) Only team members, officials and duly accredited television cameramen will be
permitted in the pit lane.

57.5 Unless asked to do so by the FIA, cars may not be moved from the fast lane whilst the
sprint session or the race is suspended. A penalty in accordance with Article 54.3c) will
be imposed on any driver whose car is moved from the fast lane to any other part of the
pit lane.

At all times drivers must follow the directions of the marshals

 

There's nothing about making it back to the pitlane without external assistance.

 

Rule 57.3 was used to set the restart order:-
 

 

In all cases the order will be taken at the last point at which it was possible to determine
the position of all cars. All such cars will then be permitted to resume the sprint session
or the race

So, the gird order was the lat point at which it was possible to determine the order, it then says "all such cars will then be permitted to resume" Russell was on the grid, hence should have been able to resume.....

Did the FIA fail to follow it's own rules yet again ?



#32 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:19

Can anyone point me at the rule which says you have to make it back to the pits under your own steam ?
 
The 2022 sporting rules at at https://www.fia.com/..._2022-04-29.pdf
 
Section 57 covers race stoppages, and says :-
 

 
There's nothing about making it back to the pitlane without external assistance.
 
Rule 57.3 was used to set the restart order:-
 


So, the gird order was the lat point at which it was possible to determine the order, it then says "all such cars will then be permitted to resume" Russell was on the grid, hence should have been able to resume.....
Did the FIA fail to follow it's own rules yet again ?

He needed, or was given, outside assistance which negates his ability to continue. The rule exists somewhere in the regs.

#33 Fonzey

Fonzey
  • Member

  • 583 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:23

Emotionally? Yes let him back in, he really did jump out and sprint straight over to the stricken Alfa. 

 

If following the rules? No, his car was knackered anyway - unlikely to be fixed, and I'm not sure we want to be encouraging drivers to be jumping out of cars and running across a circuit. As noble as it is, there are marshals every few feet nowadays who have comms with race control, better visibility and aren't normally completely pumped with adrenaline when making what could be life or death decisions. 

 

Was great to see George running across the gravel though, whatever the outcome. 



#34 Jones Foyer

Jones Foyer
  • Member

  • 723 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:25

Track safety is excellent these days. On the first lap, the medical car follows the field and is on the scene immediately. They don’t need a driver pulling off to help. George couldn’t start his car, so he couldn’t get back to the pits on his own. Absolutely no reason to bend the rules for him.

#35 SidepodDavid

SidepodDavid
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: May 22

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:29

Can anyone point me at the rule which says you have to make it back to the pits under your own steam ?

 

The 2022 sporting rules at at https://www.fia.com/..._2022-04-29.pdf

 

Section 57 covers race stoppages, and says :-
 

 

There's nothing about making it back to the pitlane without external assistance.

 

Rule 57.3 was used to set the restart order:-
 

So, the gird order was the lat point at which it was possible to determine the order, it then says "all such cars will then be permitted to resume" Russell was on the grid, hence should have been able to resume.....

Did the FIA fail to follow it's own rules yet again ?

From your link:

 

26.4

If a car stops on the track, it shall be the duty of the marshals to remove it as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other Competitors. Under no circumstances may a driver stop his car on the track without justifiable reason.
 
If any mechanical assistance received during a sprint session or the race results in the car re-joining the stewards may disqualify him from that sprint session or the race (other than under Article 26.7d)).


#36 romaincrouton

romaincrouton
  • Member

  • 344 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:31

No, the rules are the rules... I don't like drivers being given a free pass for the good of the show or whatever... Interesting point about deterring other drivers though Sophie, I'd like to think George would make the same decision again but who knows.

Having said that I think it's very commendable what George did (shades of Senna when he went sprinting over to the barriers), I'm glad in the end he wasn't needed but I think we'd all be singing a very different tune if that car caught fire.

Glad he's the head of the GDPA, he seems like a real safe pair of hands.

#37 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,086 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:42

From your link:
 
26.4
If a car stops on the track, it shall be the duty of the marshals to remove it as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other Competitors. Under no circumstances may a driver stop his car on the track without justifiable reason.
 
If any mechanical assistance received during a sprint session or the race results in the car re-joining the stewards may disqualify him from that sprint session or the race (other than under Article 26.7d)).

Hmm, does something still happen during the race if it happens during a race suspension?

#38 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,086 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 July 2022 - 21:55

Can anyone point me at the rule which says you have to make it back to the pits under your own steam ?
 
The 2022 sporting rules at at https://www.fia.com/..._2022-04-29.pdf
 
Section 57 covers race stoppages, and says :-
 
 
There's nothing about making it back to the pitlane without external assistance.
 
Rule 57.3 was used to set the restart order:-
 
So, the gird order was the lat point at which it was possible to determine the order, it then says "all such cars will then be permitted to resume" Russell was on the grid, hence should have been able to resume.....

Did the FIA fail to follow it's own rules yet again ?

I'm only guessing, but I think the rules implicitly say that you have to make it back to the pits under your own steam, because they explicitly say that (57.2) cars "must proceed ... into the pit lane" and that (57.3) "cars unable to return to the pit lane as a result of the track being blocked will be brought back". A blocked track was not the reason why Russell couldn't make it back to the pits, and therefore he was not allowed to rejoin the race when his car was being brought back; the marshals might as well have left his car at a marshals post.



#39 Burtros

Burtros
  • Member

  • 2,366 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 03 July 2022 - 22:03

If he had gotten back in the car and restarted it then driven back without assistance he would have an argument, but from what I saw he got back in, couldn’t get it going again and got back out. That’s race over. Simple.

Advertisement

#40 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,347 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 03 July 2022 - 22:06

Nice of him to stop to help Zhou but rules are rules.

#41 FullOppositeLock

FullOppositeLock
  • Member

  • 9,843 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 03 July 2022 - 22:12

I think the argument that Russell couldn’t rejoin because he felt compelled to attend to another driver trackside is quite fanciful considering the stats of his car after the crash he himself played a role in triggering.

#42 MasterOfCoin

MasterOfCoin
  • Member

  • 4,129 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 03 July 2022 - 22:18

He's paid to drive the car, there're far more capable people there that would provide better care to Zhou than him.......Drive the car back to the pits if you can, and get more information about Zhou when it's available....


Edited by MasterOfCoin, 04 July 2022 - 02:09.


#43 SidepodDavid

SidepodDavid
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: May 22

Posted 03 July 2022 - 22:40

I think the argument that Russell couldn’t rejoin because he felt compelled to attend to another driver trackside is quite fanciful considering the stats of his car after the crash he himself played a role in triggering.

He couldn't rejoin because he had outside assistance in getting the car to the pit lane. The reason for the stoppage of the car is irrelevant.



#44 Cornholio

Cornholio
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:07

Rules are rules, but what happened to the, rule, that if less than two laps are completed before a red flag, that it's a brand new race, as if the first start never happened?

 

Then again I remember something about Hunt (eventually) being DQ'd from the 1976 British GP because he didn't do the full lap back to the pits after a first lap red, so there's probably something I've missed.



#45 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:23

From your link:
 
26.4
If a car stops on the track, it shall be the duty of the marshals to remove it as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other Competitors. Under no circumstances may a driver stop his car on the track without justifiable reason.
 
If any mechanical assistance received during a sprint session or the race results in the car re-joining the stewards may disqualify him from that sprint session or the race (other than under Article 26.7d)).

Wheatley was arguing this with his mate Michael at Spa last year when Perez had been discluded under similar circumstances. Wheatley's argument was that Spa was not Le Mans, he lost.


Edited by PayasYouRace, 04 July 2022 - 06:11.


#46 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 4,759 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:23

If he had gotten back in the car and restarted it then driven back without assistance he would have an argument, but from what I saw he got back in, couldn’t get it going again and got back out. That’s race over. Simple.

Correct. Wolff specifically confirmed that Russell tried but failed to restart his car and therefore, Wolff accepted without complaint, Russell had to retire from the race.



#47 Otaku

Otaku
  • Member

  • 1,603 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:26

Bring back T cars and problem solved

#48 bargeboard

bargeboard
  • Member

  • 580 posts
  • Joined: March 18

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:48

Emotionally? Yes let him back in, he really did jump out and sprint straight over to the stricken Alfa.

If following the rules? No, his car was knackered anyway - unlikely to be fixed, and I'm not sure we want to be encouraging drivers to be jumping out of cars and running across a circuit. As noble as it is, there are marshals every few feet nowadays who have comms with race control, better visibility and aren't normally completely pumped with adrenaline when making what could be life or death decisions.

Was great to see George running across the gravel though, whatever the outcome.


Absolutely.

#49 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 9,271 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:50

Russell offered nothing at the scene except potentially being in the way.  I empathize with the concern but in this case it’s best to let the pros do their job.



#50 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 21,961 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 03 July 2022 - 23:57

I think Russell got carried away running to the scene. Presumably he thought his race was over and that’s why he jumped out. Then he had a look at the car and saw it wasn’t too bad

Edited by ARTGP, 03 July 2022 - 23:57.