64 replies to this topic

[Brian60]

Since Lewis began his epic battles with Max, the one thing became clear, if push came to shove, more often than not Lewis would back out of a straight fight for a corner and would give it up.

 

Now since the start of last season it seems to have been noticed that this may be some kind of 'weakness' by the other drivers. Last year we had Tsunoda fighting hard and keeping Hamilton back for a fair few laps, even going so far as to tell the tv media he was happy to interfere with the championship for his sister team. Again we saw it last season with Alonso in a similar position and also do or die by Perez, divebombing into corners.

 

This season Norris has done the same with him at the British GP along with Sergio doing it again being also joined by LeClerc.

 

None of these overtakes or defences of corners seemed to happen to him before 2021. So, could it be that others have realised that if they attack or defend hard enough Lewis is going to back out of the situation. Could it be that the young guns have found a weakness in his arsenal and are willing to push as hard as Max when it comes to driving against Lewis?

 

In no way am I critisising the competion for how they drive against him, good on them if they have detected a weakness, go for it! What are your thoughts?

 

[Sterzo]

My thought is: it isn't a weakness.

 

In his first full season in cars, 2002 in Formula Renault, he stood out as being brilliant at avoiding contact. His overtakes involved minimum risk, and sometimes the overtaken driver would attempt a "red mist" repass. Hamilton would let him through, then retake him cleanly at the next opportunity. Nobody's perfect, and sometimes it all goes horribly wrong, but overall his approach has been (I would submit humbly) fairly successful.

[Roadhouse]

His relative car performance was slightly different before 2021. The weakness they're seeing is that they actually stand a chance car performance wise.

Edited by Roadhouse, 05 July 2022 - 17:05.

[MikeTekRacing]

His relative car performance was slightly different before 2021. The weakness they're seeing is that they actually stand a chance car performance wise.

I don’t think it’s only that. In AD he had a much better car than Checo, on used tyres yet he did not hug the left line on the straight allowing Checo to overtake him back and we all know what next.

He is probably less desperate to defend and more focused on racing.

Yesterday I felt neither driver wanted contact hence we had quite a bit of action

[cpbell]

I think it's just a matter of a driver losing that last 1% of speed, but gaining in racecraft.

[efuloni]

Also, its about being in the fight for the championship or not. Lewis got more agressive thoughout the year in 2021, as the WDC came to an end. But, now, its kind of pointless to damage the car and indanger you and others with some 'bold' moves. Its better just wait and do a safer overtake.

[GentlemanDriver091]

I don’t think it’s only that. In AD he had a much better car than Checo, on used tyres yet he did not hug the left line on the straight allowing Checo to overtake him back and we all know what next.

If I remember it correctly he almost pushed Checo into the pitlane.

[Joshrobins13]

Like all great drivers, Lewis adjusts his aggression based on the situation. Lewis had to jump out of the way of Max at the end of last year because contact would have ended his title hopes.

Wait until later in the year when Lewis is out of the WDC and fighting a WDC contender on track for a win or podium. Then you'll see aggression.

[Pimpwerx]

Lewis still overtakes the best of them. He learned sometime around 2011 that surviving the fight is more important than winning at all costs. He was much more impulsive when young, but now plays the long game. I don't think it would make sense for him to try to rekindle some of that young aggression now either. His skills are going to be on the decline now, mild or not. So the measured game he plays will prevent him from going late-stage Coulthard, where he bonks guys left and right trying to do too much.

 

I think he gave Checo the inside line at the end there, because he needed the better lineinto the next corner, because Checo was glued to his tail. If he defended the inside, Checo goes around him with ease anyway, and now he's also gotta worry about Charles getting by following Checo. If you see, he takes the same wide line that Charles takes, hoping to be on the inside going left. Checo would've still gotten by due to top speed, but Charles would've had a tougher time. However, Checo ran Lewis wide, which gave Charles a better run into the left, and he took the position.

 

Lewis is not the aggressive driver he was at the start. I think those days are done. I think he's still one of the greats on the attack. He's had some great overtakes this season, now that he finds himself dicing it up on a regular basis.

[Counterbalance]

Also, its about being in the fight for the championship or not. Lewis got more agressive thoughout the year in 2021, as the WDC came to an end. But, now, its kind of pointless to damage the car and indanger you and others with some 'bold' moves. Its better just wait and do a safer overtake.

Exactly. In his earlier career he was criticised for being impetuous, now for thinking about the longer game. He can’t win with some, whatever the circumstances.

[MikeTekRacing]

Wait until later in the year when Lewis is out of the WDC and fighting a WDC contender on track for a win or podium. Then you'll see aggression.

Not sure if you’re actually serious

[Rumblestrip]

Lewis still overtakes the best of them. He learned sometime around 2011 that surviving the fight is more important than winning at all costs. He was much more impulsive when young, but now plays the long game. I don't think it would make sense for him to try to rekindle some of that young aggression now either. His skills are going to be on the decline now, mild or not. So the measured game he plays will prevent him from going late-stage Coulthard, where he bonks guys left and right trying to do too much.

 

I think he gave Checo the inside line at the end there, because he needed the better lineinto the next corner, because Checo was glued to his tail. If he defended the inside, Checo goes around him with ease anyway, and now he's also gotta worry about Charles getting by following Checo. If you see, he takes the same wide line that Charles takes, hoping to be on the inside going left. Checo would've still gotten by due to top speed, but Charles would've had a tougher time. However, Checo ran Lewis wide, which gave Charles a better run into the left, and he took the position.

 

Lewis is not the aggressive driver he was at the start. I think those days are done. I think he's still one of the greats on the attack. He's had some great overtakes this season, now that he finds himself dicing it up on a regular basis.

 

True. He's had a car capable of competing for the championship for the last 8 years. I'm presuming that will naturally lead to more long-game thinking when dicing for position even now. He's certainly way beyond the year he spent mostly colliding with Massa (2011?)

[Joshrobins13]

Not sure if you’re actually serious

Why not? It's what every good driver would take advantage of. One driver has nothing to lose, the other has everything to lose. Lewis has rarely been in the situation since 2014.

I'm not sure what you're getting from my post that's so shocking?

[RekF1]

He was on the back foot and he had it in his head that the FIA were out to get him. Without "mistakes" by Masi and the stewards in the last 4 races his approach was fantastic. Notice that he always gets his plums out at Silverstone, or when he's angry like Brazil. Tempered aggression.

[P123]

Sometimes a driver can be caught out if another dirver 'sends it' (courtesy Danny Ric ), but giving somebody the inside/ not defending it can also give a benefit on exit as oppsoed to compromising corner entry.  The first sector at Silverstone seems to be particularly set up for that sort of give and take.

 

I can think way back to Nurburgring 2011, and Webber taking Hamilton into the final corner... the temptation must have been to move and block, but that would have given Webber the better exit and then the tow.  Instead Hamilton tucked back in and repassed him into turn 1.  Sometimes it's better to let the mugging take place.  

[mstar]

All i am saying is lewis has gone a little "soft" over the years.  He leaves larger gaps (scared? not to move around to block cars and get penalty?), or doesn't want to go for gaps like he would of like when he was younger.  I mean on the last lap (abu dhabi 2021) when he was almost alongside when he had the 1 chance to overtake, he should of sent it down the inside of Max and positioned his car so he could possibly hit max and maybe he have front wing damage BUT max be worse off FFS lewis at least try coming second isn;t going to work just sent it down the inside!!!!

 

the gap he left for perez on Sunday was like a rookie mistake i don;t know what else to say.  Yes perez would of overtaken him anyway but make it hard for people lewis please.

Edited by mstar, 05 July 2022 - 18:05.

[P123]

All i am saying is lewis has gone a little "soft" over the years.  He leaves larger gaps (scared? not to move around to block cars and get penalty?), or doesn't want to go for gaps like he would of like when he was younger.  I mean on the last lap (abu dhabi 2021) when he was almost alongside when he had the 1 chance to overtake, he should of sent it down the inside of Max and positioned his car so he could possibly hit max and maybe he have front wing damage BUT max be worse off FFS lewis at least try coming second isn;t going to work just sent it down the inside!!!!

 

the gap he left for perez on Sunday was like a rookie mistake i don;t know what else to say.  Yes perez would of overtaken him anyway but make it hard for people lewis please.

 

You must have been having kittens when Rosberg kept sailing down his inside at Bahrain in 2014....  sometimes it pays not to defend for the sake of it.

[mstar]

You must have been having kittens when Rosberg kept sailing down his inside at Bahrain in 2014....  sometimes it pays not to defend for the sake of it.

 

That was lewis at his best.  These days i just don;t see that fierce defence and blocking tactics anymore.  In the old days as Massa used to say was lewis goes for gaps and he makes the other driver think close the gap we crash OR let me pass.  Now its far to easy to pass lewis.  

[Joshrobins13]

Also, despite what may people will try to tell you, Lewis is a fair driver. His only hope at Abu Dhabi was to pull a dirty move and hope for the best, that's not his style, and I think that final lap proved that.

[Bartonz20let]

This feels like a bait post lol

Lewis plays to his strengths, like all the greats.

In many cases being aggressive is the mark of inexperience.

[Primo]

Personally I think he has been driving for so long without actually being challenged that he has forgotten someone might actually try to overtake him. We saw it in Abu Dhabi, last lap, and we saw the same here. Doors wide open are not a "long game", they are mistakes.

[jjcale]

LH has such ridiculous race pace that he doesnt have to get desperate. 

 

Without the safety car he would have probably won on Sunday ... in the 3rd best car. 

 

Since the final stint in the race before last where he just left GR for dead, we are getting back the real LH. 

 

I wished he had been a bit more aggressive last race - but I understand why he played it cool. 

 

He might have qualified higher if Merc didnt make a big mistake at the end by telling their guys to back off try to be last over the line on a somewhat drying track and end up just losing tyre temp (and thus grip) instead ... if he had qualified say 3d and MV had his issue that race would have been easy for him with the pace he was showing. 

 

I would put money on him for pole and win in Hungary if Merc's improvements to the car work on all kinds of tracks. ... and top 3 everywhere else. 

 

... he's back! 

Edited by jjcale, 06 July 2022 - 08:43.

[noriaki]

I would say it's a strength rather than a weakness. 

 

Lewis definitely had a different style at McLaren. He used to be the driver notorious for crowding, which eventually began resulting in collisions especially around the 2010-2011 era. 

 

Since McLaren, Lewis has improved in playing the long game and no longer plays stupid games (except in the battle with Nico because it was purely 1-on-1 and the only thing that mattered was relative point gains on one another.). He seems to have realized how others might win a few points here and there by being aggressive, but soon enough, they are due to lose a bigger bunch when someone like Mick Schumacher eventually doesn't yield for them. 

Edited by noriaki, 05 July 2022 - 18:55.

[jjcale]

All i am saying is lewis has gone a little "soft" over the years.  He leaves larger gaps (scared? not to move around to block cars and get penalty?), or doesn't want to go for gaps like he would of like when he was younger.  I mean on the last lap (abu dhabi 2021) when he was almost alongside when he had the 1 chance to overtake, he should of sent it down the inside of Max and positioned his car so he could possibly hit max and maybe he have front wing damage BUT max be worse off FFS lewis at least try coming second isn;t going to work just sent it down the inside!!!!

 

the gap he left for perez on Sunday was like a rookie mistake i don;t know what else to say.  Yes perez would of overtaken him anyway but make it hard for people lewis please.

 

He's gone very soft ... but its OK ... he is still super quick over a race distance. 

 

Cars win races - not drivers .... and nobody maximises a car's winning chances like LH ... how many races has he won over the years that he shouldnt have won? ... and just by keeping it clean and hanging in there?

 

Sure ... the one yesterday got away ... but he will be winning at least a few races, if not several, this season - if Merc keeps up this rate of progress.   

Edited by jjcale, 05 July 2022 - 18:57.

[MikeTekRacing]

Why not? It's what every good driver would take advantage of. One driver has nothing to lose, the other has everything to lose. Lewis has rarely been in the situation since 2014.

I'm not sure what you're getting from my post that's so shocking?

The part were he is not already clearly out of the title yet

[Touchdown]

LH has such ridiculous race pace that he doesnt have to get desperate. 

 

Without the safety car he would have probably won on Sunday ... in the 3rd best car. 

 

Since the final stint in the race before last where he just left GR for dead, we are getting back the real LH. 

 

I wished he had been a bit more aggressive last race - but I understand why he played it cool. 

 

He have qualified higher if Merc didnt make a big mistake at the end by telling their guys to back off try to be last over the line on a somewhat drying track and end up just losing tyre temp (and thus grip) instead ... if he had qualified say 3d and MV had his issue that race would have been easy for him with the pace he was showing. 

 

I would put money on him for pole and win in Hungary if Merc's improvements to the car work on all kinds of tracks. ... and top 3 everywhere else. 

 

... he's back! 

Think he would have finished second but Charles had the win wrapped up before the SC.

[Joshrobins13]

The part were he is not already clearly out of the title yet

OK, fair enough. My point was mainly to do with the different approaches of drivers competing for the title vs drivers not competing in the second half of the season.

Edited by Joshrobins13, 05 July 2022 - 19:31.

[Whatisvalis]

Think he would have finished second but Charles had the win wrapped up before the SC.

Yea there wasn’t enough laps left. The time he lost behind Noris and the slow stop cost him the chance at the win.

I think it can be easy to say he sometimes leaves the door wide open, but with Lewis there’s usually a bigger picture.

[MasterOfCoin]

If I remember it correctly he almost pushed Checo into the pitlane.

I saw that as Perez using the pitlane to keep his position....

[sheSgoTthElooK]

If the other drivers think that's his weakness, good for him... 

 

...then their driving is pretty predictable either... 

 

Just sayin. 

[lewislorenzo]

Interesting topic🙄

[Primo]

I think it can be easy to say he sometimes leaves the door wide open, but with Lewis there’s usually a bigger picture.

 

Bigger picture? Leaving the door open cost him a championship. What picture is bigger than that? I mean, for a racing driver.

[PlatenGlass]

Hamilton defending corner entries? I didn't realise there were any moves afoot to get rid of them.

[MasterOfCoin]

Bigger picture? Leaving the door open cost him a championship. What picture is bigger than that? I mean, for a racing driver.

A massive Masi picture.....LOL

[TomNokoe]

It does bother me how easily he gets pushed around, but it is what it is.

[alframsey]

It does bother me how easily he gets pushed around, but it is what it is.

This is exactly how I feel. To me it feels as if he's gone too far in the 'survive and score approach. As ie said elsewhere imo he is the best on track in wheel to wheel racing (with Alonso) but he doesn't really put much of a defence up. He does however seem to be as good as ever in attack. I kind of miss the Lewis of old who gave no quarter but who am I to judge a man who has utilised this approach to become the most successful driver of all time?

[geralt]

After watching the video below, I don't think he actually could have done more. That Merc is a dog on the straights, how much drag does that car have?

 

 

Even when he gets a better exit and has slipstream behind Perez or Leclerc, they still pull away 

[OO7]

After watching the video below, I don't think he actually could have done more. That Merc is a dog on the straights, how much drag does that car have?

 

 

Even when he gets a better exit and has slipstream behind Perez or Leclerc, they still pull away 

The RB just ate the gap to the Mercedes at will down the flat out sections, especially the run from Club to Village!

[MikeTekRacing]

Checo was told by the team the competition probably runs more wing as they are faster in the turns and slower than RBR on the straights.

I still think that should not mean not defending against a Red Bull.
At the same time Checo came from quite a bit behind on the brakes so maybe Lewis just didn’t expect him there

[OO7]

Checo was told by the team the competition probably runs more wing as they are faster in the turns and slower than RBR on the straights.

I still think that should not mean not defending against a Red Bull.
At the same time Checo came from quite a bit behind on the brakes so maybe Lewis just didn’t expect him there

On the restart lap he defended the inside yet still was overtaken.  Later on he defended the outside and was overtaken again.  Compare with the onboard of Hamilton chasing LeClerc at the same part of the circuit.

[P123]

Bigger picture? Leaving the door open cost him a championship. What picture is bigger than that? I mean, for a racing driver.

 

Defending the inside is not some magical failsafe defence.  To help you out with the bigger picture, as an example consider that Hamilton does defend the inside in AD (not that I'd disagree he was caught napping to an extent!).  What would Max do then? He'd take the ideal racing line, with better traction on softer compound and brand new tyres, and along with superior top speed would have been gone and out of reach by halfway down the first straight.  Rather, it gifted Hamilton a nice slipstream which kept that 'battle' going into the third sector.  If we're considering not defending the inside as a mistake going by your prior contribution in this topic, then the grid must be full of mistakes each and every race.  Your view seems simplistic, and could do with a dose of the bigger picture.

Edited by P123, 05 July 2022 - 23:23.

[Atreiu]

I think the stewards are a factor, nobody can ever predict what they'll do after someone causes a collision and/or pushes other too far and hard. Hamilton thinks about avoiding collisions and awkward penalties, I guess.

[Squeed]

It has much to do with the amount of trust the driver has for the guy/gal he is racing, IMO.  

 

The head-to-head stuff with both RB drivers has given him reason to play the long game rather than engage in brinksmanship. 

[mstar]

I know lewis wants to finish (so do the other drivers), but i agree with some people here -lewis over the years has gone a bit soft.  The only time we saw lewis at his old self (and he had to TBH), was silverstone and brazil last year.  I wish that lewis comes back this year, as lets be honest he isn't going for a win/championship and he should put some manners on max lol.

Edited by mstar, 15 July 2022 - 15:56.

[Seanspeed]

I think people forget Lewis was very 'do or die' early on in F1.  Made lots of moves that were quite hard, where it was a sort of 'I'm coming through and if you do anything to try and stop me we're both crashing' thing.  Of course he had the competence to pull this off without being some wily 'chuck it and pray' sort of driver like most others who attempt the same thing with less talent.  He'd also had plenty of instances of just pushing others off-track when trying to overtake him, though when this was going unpunished, many drivers were doing this, so he was hardly alone in this. 

 

But still, this isn't some new situation for him and he seems to have softened up a bit on this himself, for better or worse.  I do think that's taken a slight edge off his impressiveness, but not much.  He's still absolutely one of the elite guys out there when it comes to wheel to wheel racing and will come off the better far more often than not.  

[TheFish]

His long game strategy would have made him an 8 time Champion if not for Masi.

We saw in the last race how always fighting can be to your detriment with both Russel and Perez.

[MikeTekRacing]

His long game strategy would have made him an 8 time Champion if not for Masi.
 

just take that to the AD dump thread....

[ForzaGTR]

What a load of nonsense

[cjm321190]

I think people forget Lewis was very 'do or die' early on in F1. Made lots of moves that were quite hard, where it was a sort of 'I'm coming through and if you do anything to try and stop me we're both crashing' thing. Of course he had the competence to pull this off without being some wily 'chuck it and pray' sort of driver like most others who attempt the same thing with less talent. He'd also had plenty of instances of just pushing others off-track when trying to overtake him, though when this was going unpunished, many drivers were doing this, so he was hardly alone in this.

But still, this isn't some new situation for him and he seems to have softened up a bit on this himself, for better or worse. I do think that's taken a slight edge off his impressiveness, but not much. He's still absolutely one of the elite guys out there when it comes to wheel to wheel racing and will come off the better far more often than not.

He was very fiery quite like Verstappen is now but he became wiser with experience hence the lots of WDC.

If he was still fast but erratic Rosberg would have won more championships. I think his time with Button at McLaren helped him as button like Rosberg was a smart consistent driver over an up and down erratic gifted one.

[statman]

 Notice that he always gets his plums out at Silverstone, or when he's angry like Brazil. Tempered aggression.

 

Brazil was the introduction of that now infamous 'new' rocket engine. It sure looks 'aggressive' it you can blast by everyone else..