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Russell calls for FIA to stick to one F1 race director


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 16:47

Asked if the rotation of race directors was a problem, Russell replied: “Yes, I do agree that we need to stick to one race director.

“We need to have a bit more consistency with the stewarding. We come to the following event and often the steward in the previous event is not there. So there's no accountability, no explanations of decisions.

“We ask questions, and it's difficult to get a straightforward answer because almost a bit blame is being put onto somebody else who isn't there.

“So it is tricky. Everybody’s got their own interpretations.”

 

 

https://www.autospor...ector/10335761/



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#2 SophieB

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 16:48

This could have maybe gone with the Vettel being fined for leaving the meeting thread, but that one seems it’s about how the FIA punish people and this is more about how the FIA are running things now and what the drivers think of it all.



#3 Massa

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 16:49

That's embarrassing by the FIA.

I understand why Vettel was unhappy.

#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 16:53

So I was perplexed by the penalty today for forcing people off at the exit of uh...what's the second right hander.

 

You know, when Verstappen herded LeClerc off a few years ago. Great racing and blah blah, even the old timers said so. I thought it was crappy because it's just playing bumper cars and chicken. 

 

But now it's a penalty? Is that a rule change or a steward's judgement call? That should be clearly in or out, different refs shouldn't make the difference. 

 

The rulebook is the rulebook, the race director shouldn't make any difference at all. Only the rotating stewards who have to make decisions on how long a piece of string is.



#5 jwill189

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 16:58

I said at the beginning of the season that the rule of "a car that is significantly alongside must be given space in a corner" would never work because it was subjective and open to interpretation. With a carousal of stewards, it has been a disaster.



#6 ANF

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:00

I wouldn't be surprised if Niels Wittich takes over full time next year. Wittich was deputy race director under Michael Masi, and unless I'm mistaken Eduardo Freitas wasn't too keen on the F1 job to begin with (but I don't know exactly why).


Edited by ANF, 09 July 2022 - 17:01.


#7 FLB

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:02

That's a very reasonable opinion from Mr. Russell.

 

 

I'm liking him more and more as a GPDA representative.



#8 Rumblestrip

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:03

I wouldn't be surprised if Niels Wittich takes over full time next year. Wittich was deputy race director under Michael Masi, and unless I'm mistaken Eduardo Freitas wasn't too keen on the F1 job to begin with (but I don't know exactly why).

 

He's probably looked at how Masi was treated and thought...no thanks.



#9 smitten

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:04

 unless I'm mistaken Eduardo Freitas wasn't too keen on the F1 job to begin with (but I don't know exactly why).

It's a poison chalice.  I wouldn't touch the gig with the proverbial.



#10 SophieB

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:04

Russell should have like, a Fez or something that he dons for when he’s speaking Ex Cathedra or just giving his own opinion. It’s rarely clear.



#11 ANF

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:04

He's probably looked at how Masi was treated and thought...no thanks.

Yeah, maybe.

#12 Scaboo22

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:05

Time to bring Masi back. It’s clear he wasn’t the problem but some people just won’t want to accept that. Gonna duck out of here now :-D

#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:07

Russell should have like, a Fez or something that he dons for when he’s speaking Ex Cathedra or just giving his own opinion. It’s rarely clear.

 

Big energy of "Mini bio of humble brags, tweets my own" profile.



#14 milestone 11

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:31

Just typical isn't it. Blame the guy that's not there, they'll never be accountable for anything. FIA corruption has been fully endorsed by its new leader.

#15 Fastcake

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:54

Time to bring Masi back. It’s clear he wasn’t the problem but some people just won’t want to accept that. Gonna duck out of here now :-D

He was a problem, and had been for multiple seasons. No one was happy with race direction last year, this problem now seems to have grown to the upper management of the FIA as well.



#16 pdac

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 17:59

 

"We ask questions, and it's difficult to get a straightforward answer because almost a bit blame is being put onto somebody else who isn't there."

 

 

Good. They should not be questioning the decisions - they should accept them and move on. If ALL drivers  feel that too many incorrect decisions were made during the season, then they should protest to the FIA, directly, about the quality of the stewarding. If a team feels that they are being unfairly judged by the stewards, then they should make their own representation directly to the FIA. It's not (should not be) the remit of the drivers to question any or every decision that they don't like.


Edited by pdac, 09 July 2022 - 18:00.


#17 smitten

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:03

Good. They should not be questioning the decisions - they should accept them and move on.

How should they avoid falling foul of the rules in the future if they cannot ask the decision makers why they ruled like they did in the past?  Or why the decision makers ruled differently in apparently similar circumstances?



#18 FLB

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:12

Good. They should not be questioning the decisions - they should accept them and move on. If ALL drivers  feel that too many incorrect decisions were made during the season, then they should protest to the FIA, directly, about the quality of the stewarding. If a team feels that they are being unfairly judged by the stewards, then they should make their own representation directly to the FIA. It's not (should not be) the remit of the drivers to question any or every decision that they don't like.

 

Nothing ever changes...

 



#19 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:22

Good. They should not be questioning the decisions - they should accept them and move on. If ALL drivers  feel that too many incorrect decisions were made during the season, then they should protest to the FIA, directly, about the quality of the stewarding. If a team feels that they are being unfairly judged by the stewards, then they should make their own representation directly to the FIA. It's not (should not be) the remit of the drivers to question any or every decision that they don't like.

 

Driver issues by nature are more vague so need discussions. They're not grumbling about the flexi-floor rules. And the team managers/bosses meeting would be just as frothy. 



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#20 ColeTrickle44

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:25

They just need to call things consistently. If the majority of amateur fans adjudge last weeks incidents to be the same as this week with Albon why can’t the stewards.

They need to stop taking into account “who it is” and the circumstances

#21 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:28

I have to say that I started chuckling more and more when GR came out with something to say because it would inevitably be followed by "...needs to change". However, I agree completely with this statement. I also think rules need to be written in a way that leave zero room for interpretation. For too long this wishy-washy way of regulating the sport has caused a hassle where there needn't be.



#22 Ruudbackus

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:29

Nothing ever changes...

 

Basically this says it all, its been from all times that there's controversy in decision making in f1. And football,and cycling and and and. And even Hawkeye at wimbledon was subject of a row the other day. There will always be people agreeing and not agreeing with decisions being made.

 

Problem is that its always subjective, in f1 to the stewards view, and if you rotate stewards that only complicates things. However I do not believe that we would get consistency if its only 1 race director and the same set of stewards as every track is different and every incident has its own circumstances.



#23 Deeq

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 18:31

Guys it helps if you take in to account the outcome...You see the FiA are big believers of if three falls in the forrest and no one was around...if someone losses - a place or a wing etc - in incident its a penalty for the wrong doer otherwise get on with it.

#24 Ruusperi

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 19:16

Nothing ever changes...

 

What was Balestre doing in F1 drivers' meeting anyway giving direct commands to the race director? You wouldn't expect to find Jean Todt or Bin Sulayem from those meetings. They have a whole organization to lead, in which F1 is just one of the categories along with rallying, sportscars, karting and whatnow.



#25 FLB

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 19:34

What was Balestre doing in F1 drivers' meeting anyway giving direct commands to the race director? You wouldn't expect to find Jean Todt or Bin Sulayem from those meetings. They have a whole organization to lead, in which F1 is just one of the categories along with rallying, sportscars, karting and whatnow.

Well, Balestre was very much 'hands on'. He micro-managed literally *everything*, something that Mosley changed as soon as he got there. 



#26 milestone 11

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 20:38

Good. They should not be questioning the decisions - they should accept them and move on. If ALL drivers feel that too many incorrect decisions were made during the season, then they should protest to the FIA, directly, about the quality of the stewarding. If a team feels that they are being unfairly judged by the stewards, then they should make their own representation directly to the FIA. It's not (should not be) the remit of the drivers to question any or every decision that they don't like.

Is that not the raison d'etre of the GPDA, of which Russell and Vettel are directors?

Edited by milestone 11, 09 July 2022 - 20:40.


#27 pdac

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 20:58

Is that not the raison d'etre of the GPDA, of which Russell and Vettel are directors?

 

Yes, but the correct procedure must be to contact the FIA directly and privately and request that they discuss the issue. The stewards and the race director are appointed by the FIA to administer the rules, make judgements on rule infringements and allocate appropriate penalties when required. Their decisions should not be questioned by anyone other than their appointees, If the drivers or teams have a beef with their actions and decisions they should take it up with the FIA - not bitch about things publicly.

 

Every document I've read has the same text at the bottom - reminding the teams and participants of their right to appeal the decision. If they do not want to go through the correct procedure, then they should shut up and get on with their own jobs.


Edited by pdac, 09 July 2022 - 21:00.


#28 ensign14

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:38

You know, when Verstappen herded LeClerc off a few years ago. Great racing and blah blah, even the old timers said so. I thought it was crappy because it's just playing bumper cars and chicken.

Not me.  I agree(d) with you.  And we saw the effect of that stewarding cowardice at Monza when Leclerc felt he was free to do exactly the same to Hamilton.



#29 Deeq

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:45

Yes, but the correct procedure must be to contact the FIA directly and privately and request that they discuss the issue. The stewards and the race director are appointed by the FIA to administer the rules, make judgements on rule infringements and allocate appropriate penalties when required. Their decisions should not be questioned by anyone other than their appointees, If the drivers or teams have a beef with their actions and decisions they should take it up with the FIA - not bitch about things publicly.

Every document I've read has the same text at the bottom - reminding the teams and participants of their right to appeal the decision. If they do not want to go through the correct procedure, then they should shut up and get on with their own jobs.

That is exactly the wrong method to get what they want i.e consistency
It seems lately every little Stewards/court judgement is at variance with the previous one of similar incident. So no point apealing a judgment..
They want the FiA to change its organisation so perhaps a permanent RD and Stewards.

Edited by Deeq, 09 July 2022 - 21:46.


#30 cpbell

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:50

Yes, but the correct procedure must be to contact the FIA directly and privately and request that they discuss the issue. The stewards and the race director are appointed by the FIA to administer the rules, make judgements on rule infringements and allocate appropriate penalties when required. Their decisions should not be questioned by anyone other than their appointees, If the drivers or teams have a beef with their actions and decisions they should take it up with the FIA - not bitch about things publicly.

 

Every document I've read has the same text at the bottom - reminding the teams and participants of their right to appeal the decision. If they do not want to go through the correct procedure, then they should shut up and get on with their own jobs.

Drivers need to know what is and isn't acceptable, though, and it's simply not fair to have each set of officials refuse to outline what they deem OK.  Would you like it if a football pitch didn't have painted sidelines but the referee took a view on where he thought they ought to be without telling the players?



#31 TheFish

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:53

Maybe it’s been clarified in another thread and maybe I should be asking in another thread but I don’t see how Albon deserves 2 penalty points for today and yet in the last race Pete got nothing for overtaking off the circuit and then both Red Bull drivers pushed drivers off the circuit.

#32 TheFish

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:54

Every document I've read has the same text at the bottom - reminding the teams and participants of their right to appeal the decision. If they do not want to go through the correct procedure, then they should shut up and get on with their own jobs.


How many of these appeals have been successful in the last couple of decades?

#33 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:59

Maybe it’s been clarified in another thread and maybe I should be asking in another thread but I don’t see how Albon deserves 2 penalty points for today and yet in the last race Pete got nothing for overtaking off the circuit and then both Red Bull drivers pushed drivers off the circuit.

So maybe read the other thread?

#34 pdac

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 22:23

That is exactly the wrong method to get what they want i.e consistency
It seems lately every little Stewards/court judgement is at variance with the previous one of similar incident. So no point apealing a judgment..
They want the FiA to change its organisation so perhaps a permanent RD and Stewards.

 

 

Drivers need to know what is and isn't acceptable, though, and it's simply not fair to have each set of officials refuse to outline what they deem OK.  Would you like it if a football pitch didn't have painted sidelines but the referee took a view on where he thought they ought to be without telling the players?

 

 

How many of these appeals have been successful in the last couple of decades?

 

That's exactly why this should not be an individual driver or even the GPDA just bitching about it to all who will listen to them. It needs to be properly coordinated. It needs to be a solid representation to the FIA. Otherwise it comes across (as it probably is) just a handful of driver who are unhappy when they are affected by things but are totally fine when things go in their favour.



#35 Deeq

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 22:50

I think its coordinated* enough and this was the centre of the dispute at the last meeting. We will see soon if FiA will listen to their loud complaints...
GDPA is a solid and proper representation/forum to FiA!
Time to have a big meeting on the rules and their enforcement and perhaps permanent, competent Stewards and RD.

*) Everyone and their dog is complaining lately the consistency of the stewards whether affected directly or not.

Edited by Deeq, 09 July 2022 - 22:53.


#36 MrSarcastic

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 23:11

Maybe it’s been clarified in another thread and maybe I should be asking in another thread but I don’t see how Albon deserves 2 penalty points for today and yet in the last race Pete got nothing for overtaking off the circuit and then both Red Bull drivers pushed drivers off the circuit.


Ha, who's Pete?

#37 Celloman

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Posted 09 July 2022 - 23:28

That's a very reasonable opinion from Mr. Russell.

 

 

I'm liking him more and more as a GPDA representative.

I'm not making much sense of what Russell is saying I'm afraid. First off I don't understand why he links stewarding with the race director. The actual stewarding, at least 90% of it, is not made by the race director. It's made by the rotating three race stewards. So is he referring to those in his critic or what? Very unclear.

 

The cutting issue he mentions in specific happens to be one thing that actually the race director decides rather than the three stewards. But even here the race director(s) have been much more consistent with enforcing the white lines than in previous seasons, so why is he linking that to lack of consistency? Makes no sense whatsoever.


Edited by Celloman, 09 July 2022 - 23:28.


#38 renzmann

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 06:31

I think Russell has a point when he says that questions can't be answered because the guys present would have to blame somebody who isn't there. I can imagine this is the case, and they need a solution for that.

 

Otherwise, however, I think rotating race directors as well as two race directors are very good ideas. (In the following, I'll ignore the fact that some decisions are made by stewards, and some are made by race directors). To begin with, the rules will always have subjective elements. You can try to leave as little room for interpretation as possible by adding more detail to the rules, but that will cause another can of worms to open. Generally speaking, there's lots of subjectivity whenever people make rules:

 - Isolated rules may look clear in the rule book, but are rarely binary when applied to reality (black or white, 0 or 1,...), because reality is messy.

 - If you have a rule book, rules may conflict, so you need somebody who subjectively decides what rule or combination of rules are applicable.

 - Often times, it's not clear from the data if a rule may apply or not (over the line? in front of the other car? enough room?...). Somebody has to make a subjective decision.

 - Rules that are justified in theory or that have always worked before may suddenly lead to very wrong results when applied to a new case, typically a case the rule maker hasn't thought of. Common sense requires a creative application of the rules in these instances.

 

These subjective factors (there's many more of them, to be sure) are the very reason people need judges, or race directors, in the first place. Now, why would you dissolve the given subjectivity with the perspective of a single person? Why would it be a good idea to say: "decisions in F1 = the rule book + whatever one guy sees in the data + whatever the same guy thinks the rules mean"? Sure, there's the promise of consistency, but persons are subjective and inconsistent in themselves. Masi and even Whiting surely weren't consistent. Let's not forget consistency will eventually lead to very questionable decisions, because cases rarely are the same.

Crucially, a single person's judgement will also deny the subjetivity in the rules. Therefore, I'd rather have multiple race directors, each giving their input, having a little debate and deciding together, and thereby representing the full subjective realm of the rules. It's a good thing to force, say, a "let them race" guy and a "safety first" guy to come to a decision they can both agree with. Let them exchange good reasons! Lastly, let's say Russell has been given two or three penalties he disagrees with. It'll be easier for him to accept if he knows those penalties have been given by multiple race directors instead of a single guy. In the latter situation, Russell could have reason to believe that single race director simply doesn't like him.

 

The worst part of race day is waiting for the race :wave:


Edited by renzmann, 10 July 2022 - 06:33.


#39 registered

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:24

Did football players ever complain 'last week I didn't get a yellow for that foul' or 'last game the other player made the same tackling and it was fine' and call for the same ref every game?

In the end if you stick to the rules you are fine no matter who is steward or race director.
If you go into the borderline territory of the rules, that's a risk you take to be punished or not.

Edited by registered, 10 July 2022 - 10:25.


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#40 CSF

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:26

Did football players ever complain 'last week I didn't get a yellow for that foul' or 'last game the other player made the same tackling and it was fine' and call for the same ref every game?

In the end if you stick to the rules you are fine no matter who is steward or race director.
If you go into the borderline territory of the rules, that's a risk you take to be punished or not.

 

 

I believe there's regular dialogue between the Head of Referee's and clubs about decisions and takes questions. It would be a bit hard if the Head of Referee's changed week to week!



#41 smitten

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:28

Did football players ever complain 'last week I didn't get a yellow for that foul' or 'last game the other player made the same tackling and it was fine' and call for the same ref every game?

Interesting point.  Most sports are refereed/umpired by one person you can see during the event.  And you can see how they have chosen to referee that particular event from the early decisions they make.  Motor racing but it's nature doesn't allow that, and the drivers don't get to see how penalties are being applied to others during the race in the same way as a football team does, for instance.

 

Hell, in rugby the teams study each pro level ref to see how they tend to rule on games so that they can tailor their gameplans accordingly.



#42 registered

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:29

Interesting point. Most sports are refereed/umpired by one person you can see during the event. And you can see how they have chosen to referee that particular event from the early decisions they make. Motor racing but it's nature doesn't allow that, and the drivers don't get to see how penalties are being applied to others during the race in the same way as a football team does, for instance.

Hell, in rugby the teams study each pro level ref to see how they tend to rule on games so that they can tailor their gameplans accordingly.

How early are stewards published for a Grand Prix
Maybe F1 teams could do nthe same :D

#43 djparky

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:31

George Russell is turning into a serial moaner

#44 smitten

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:32

How early are stewards published for a Grand Prix
Maybe F1 teams could do nthe same :D

It's not quite the same though.  Not many of the Stewards will do more than one GP a year, and because it's a committee, not an individual, the interactions are more complex.  And then there's the fact that most of the time they are ruling on things referred to them rather than things they've noticed themselves in real time.



#45 Mosrite

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:34

I hope Mercedes know that this kind of talk will only get Masi reinstated. Is that really what they want?



#46 Mosrite

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:35

George Russell is turning into a serial moaner

he is now the mother theresa of motor racing so perhaps he thinks he needs to speak out for all of them



#47 cjm321190

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 10:36

George Russell is turning into a serial moaner


George Mansell. Yay

#48 ExFlagMan

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 11:24

I'm not making much sense of what Russell is saying I'm afraid. First off I don't understand why he links stewarding with the race director. The actual stewarding, at least 90% of it, is not made by the race director. It's made by the rotating three race stewards. So is he referring to those in his critic or what? Very unclear.

 

The cutting issue he mentions in specific happens to be one thing that actually the race director decides rather than the three stewards. But even here the race director(s) have been much more consistent with enforcing the white lines than in previous seasons, so why is he linking that to lack of consistency? Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Maybe because Russell understands the FIA rule (Yellow) book, which for many years has indicated that the RD/COC is supposed to pass on to the stewards any issues he wants adjudicating on.  It also states that the stewards are not supposed to take any part in the running in the meeting,.

 

The problem is that F1 seems to have overruled the Yellow Book and have brought the stewards closer into the sphere of what is supposed to be the role of Race Control and they now seem to make decisions off their own back.



#49 TheFish

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 11:38

Did football players ever complain 'last week I didn't get a yellow for that foul' or 'last game the other player made the same tackling and it was fine' and call for the same ref every game?

In the end if you stick to the rules you are fine no matter who is steward or race director.
If you go into the borderline territory of the rules, that's a risk you take to be punished or not.

Players and clubs have yes.

 

A recent high profile one: https://www.bbc.com/...otball/60558875

 

 

Everton have written to the Premier League demanding an apology after a controversial handball decision in their 1-0 defeat by Manchester City.

Saturday's incident is part of a formal complaint to the Premier League over the standard of recent officiating.

 

Everton felt Rodri handled the ball in the penalty area but referee Paul Tierney did not award a spot-kick.