Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Leaving a car’s width on the straights


  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:45

Sainz defending against Max at the start at Silverstone failed to leave a car’s width to the white line. Max’s car was forced partially off track.

Max did the same to Leclerc during todays start.

Is this allowed now?

I seem to remember rule that was introduced which essentially said if any car manages to create an overlap (any part of front wing with any part of rear tyre) then they are entitled to a cars width. This rule applied to straights only.

I wonder what will happen when we have tracks with grass/gravel at the track edges. Would this start line behaviour be allowed?

Advertisement

#2 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,385 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:50

1 car width is a moving amount. At Monaco and Paul Ricard 1 car width is very different. As long as there is space for them I have no issue with it tbf.

#3 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 6,676 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:52

1 car width is a moving amount. At Monaco and Paul Ricard 1 car width is very different. As long as there is space for them I have no issue with it tbf.

Eh?  An F1 car is 2 metres width at all circuits.



#4 TheFish

TheFish
  • Member

  • 3,385 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:55

Eh? An F1 car is 2 metres width at all circuits.


But some circuits end at the white line and others end with 50m of run off. You can have corners where 2 wheels can be just inside the white line and everything be great such as in Paul Ricard but at Monaco that would leave you in the wall.

#5 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • RC Forum Host

  • 15,932 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 09 July 2022 - 21:56

Sainz defending against Max at the start at Silverstone failed to leave a car’s width to the white line. Max’s car was forced partially off track.

Max did the same to Leclerc during todays start.

Is this allowed now?

I seem to remember rule that was introduced which essentially said if any car manages to create an overlap (any part of front wing with any part of rear tyre) then they are entitled to a cars width. This rule applied to straights only.

I wonder what will happen when we have tracks with grass/gravel at the track edges. Would this start line behaviour be allowed?

Leaving a car width is required when moving back to the racing line when first having defended the inside line on a straight. It doesn’t apply to the race start.

 

Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.


#6 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,684 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 09 July 2022 - 22:21

Leaving a car width is required when moving back to the racing line when first having defended the inside line on a straight. It doesn’t apply to the race start.

 

But you're not allowed to just drive people off the track are you?



#7 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 09 July 2022 - 22:29

This is crowding and should not be allowed
If the car behind has overlap you gotta give them room

Checo was squeezes pretty hard on L1 between T1 and - he had his front wheel between Lewis’s wheel.
I felt that was borderline but fair.

Silverstone from Sainz or today from Max are not fine. Not that they are not the norm, but they should not be

#8 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 2,673 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 09 July 2022 - 22:45

Sad sign that the sport has come to a relentless call to refer to the textbook situation these days every weekend.

I wish we could just let them race, find gaps, close gaps whatever. Just let them race. If you want to be a gentleman, be one. But it won't always win you things.

#9 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 09 July 2022 - 23:18

Sad sign that the sport has come to a relentless call to refer to the textbook situation these days every weekend.
I wish we could just let them race, find gaps, close gaps whatever. Just let them race. If you want to be a gentleman, be one. But it won't always win you things.


Racing means both drivers give each other room

#10 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,892 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 09 July 2022 - 23:48

Does anyone have Leclerc’s onboard? Was he actually alongside Verstappen? To me it looked like he maybe had a hair of a front wing’s worth of overlap in a closing door.

Edited by ARTGP, 09 July 2022 - 23:50.


#11 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 17,095 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 10 July 2022 - 00:18

Sometimes I wish drivers simply didn't lift and let the chips fall where they may.

Edit: to be honest, it's not sometimes but all the time. If the stewards won't get drivers in line, physicis should.


Edited by Atreiu, 10 July 2022 - 00:19.


#12 tourister46a

tourister46a
  • Member

  • 473 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 10 July 2022 - 00:42

In Silvestone, Max had a part of his car within the white line and that's what counts as far as leaving the track is concerned. So I guess what Sainz did was legal.

 

In Austria, from Leclerc's onboard, he never got alongside Max and seemed like he had to get off the throttle as Max was slowly moving over. He was not crowded off the track, more like blocked.



#13 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,892 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 10 July 2022 - 01:06

In Silvestone, Max had a part of his car within the white line and that's what counts as far as leaving the track is concerned. So I guess what Sainz did was legal.

In Austria, from Leclerc's onboard, he never got alongside Max and seemed like he had to get off the throttle as Max was slowly moving over. He was not crowded off the track, more like blocked.


That’s what I view as well form the race replay, but that was from outside the car. Leclerc simply wasn’t even there. It was an optical illusion at best due to the viewing angle shown on the broadcast. Max was ahead. It’s a bit like the infamous Rosberg and Alonso in Bahrain a few years back.

#14 boomn

boomn
  • Member

  • 1,214 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 10 July 2022 - 01:33

Sad sign that the sport has come to a relentless call to refer to the textbook situation these days every weekend.

I wish we could just let them race, find gaps, close gaps whatever. Just let them race. If you want to be a gentleman, be one. But it won't always win you things.

The principles of good F1 racing come from naturally limiting factors that don’t all exist anymore, and some rules and more involved stewarding have been needed to fill the gap.

In days of grass runoffs and/or minimal barriers in front of trees and buildings combined with flimsy cars and primitive clothing and helmets, forcing another driver off track meant a decent probability of killing them. I suppose you could call it gentlemanly to not kill your competitors. Take away all of those safety factors and put an acre of asphalt on the other side of the curb and drivers won’t bat an eye about driving a competitor off track without some other motivation.

Also, open wheel cars still carry the risk of touching tires and lifting (Gasly in this morning’s sprint race) or flipping (Zhou last week) one of the cars. Additionally modern open wheelers have delicate wings and floor edges that drivers don’t want damaged. For those reasons, an F1 driver getting squeezed is generally going to prioritize avoiding contact and just let themselves be pushed off, trusting in the smooth runoff. That’s not quite the same in closed wheeled cars where the driver being squeezed can afford some contact and push back, and it’s a risk for the driver doing the squeezing because they could get spun

So be careful what you wish for! If you take away most rules and a driver can generally force another off track without consequence, I don’t think it would take long before outside overtaking moves became very rare. Who would risk it when the driver on the inside holds the power to just push them off?

Edited by boomn, 10 July 2022 - 01:36.


#15 tourister46a

tourister46a
  • Member

  • 473 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 10 July 2022 - 01:52

That’s what I view as well form the race replay, but that was from outside the car. Leclerc simply wasn’t even there. It was an optical illusion at best due to the viewing angle shown on the broadcast. Max was ahead. It’s a bit like the infamous Rosberg and Alonso in Bahrain a few years back.

I watched the onboard again (strangely, when I capture a screenshot, I only get a black screen). CL might have just gotten his nose alongside by a few inches before he starts to back off. There were still 6-12 inches of space to the wall on his right and MV always leaves at least a tyre width to the white line. Pretty borderline but Max could have been just on the right side of legality



#16 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,892 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 10 July 2022 - 04:06

Hamilton squeezes Perez pretty hard down the straight on Lap 1: https://streamja.com/w2zJ7

Edited by ARTGP, 10 July 2022 - 04:07.


#17 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 2,673 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 10 July 2022 - 07:35

Boomn that's an excellent post!

#18 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 7,312 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 10 July 2022 - 07:40

the amount of complaining on this forum, day in day out, is ....breathtaking

 

there will come a moment when somebody actually suggests to keep driving single-file. It will come, I'm sure of it.



#19 Ferrim

Ferrim
  • Member

  • 1,227 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 10 July 2022 - 08:10

Hamilton squeezes Perez pretty hard down the straight on Lap 1: https://streamja.com/w2zJ7


That's completely fine. And yet, surprising that they don't make contact.

Advertisement

#20 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 10 July 2022 - 08:16

That's completely fine. And yet, surprising that they don't make contact.

It’e fine if you consider Checo can squeeze his wheel between Lewis’ wheels.
Otherwise - Lewis left less than 1 car’s width there

#21 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 3,371 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 10 July 2022 - 12:42

What is this thread about? Behaviour on the straights during the race as the title implies, or at the start? Surely the start is a whole different situation. Last I heard, you don't have 20 drivers parking their cars on the straight at other times of the race.



#22 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 37,230 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 10 July 2022 - 12:51

Seems the thread has been resurrected because we’ve seen the return of the Schumacher Chop in recent starts.



#23 F1 Mike

F1 Mike
  • Member

  • 1,620 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 12 July 2022 - 06:09

Racing means both drivers give each other room


I find that a very strange statement.

I've been watching racing drivers do everything possible to maintain their position across many categories for nearly 30 years and only in the last few years I've seen this change to the attitude of calling foul and people shouting "that's not fair"

It's really becoming pretty daft and I just don't understand this attitude at all. There are very few things I'm seeing that I would really consider dangerous and yet there will be an overreaction of "those actions will get someone killed"

This is real life not Scalextric

#24 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 12 July 2022 - 06:13

What is this thread about? Behaviour on the straights during the race as the title implies, or at the start? Surely the start is a whole different situation. Last I heard, you don't have 20 drivers parking their cars on the straight at other times of the race.


The two are clearly related. If you have a car alongside you on the straight then you are required to give space (a cars width). Why would this not apply at the start of the race? Are you saying it’s ok to run someone off the road simply because it’s the start?

#25 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 12 July 2022 - 06:29

The problem is - the "rule" can be abused both ways. While there are a lot of instances of drivers crowding others out on the outside / inside in recent years, there is also the exact opposite scenario - one where the driver behind uses a very sub-optimal line and gets his car up along the outside or inside just before a corner with little hope of making it either through the corner itself or the subsequent straight. Max on lap 1 of Abu Dhabi 2021 and Lewis at Silverstone 2021 are two very clear examples of how this rule can be abused by even the top drivers in the sport. In both these instances, neither Max (at Abu Dhabi) or Lewis (at Silverstone) were going to make it through the corner without either heavily compromising their line or taking out the driver in front unless he lifted.

 

There doesn't seem to be a clear answer here, except "respect the spirit of the rule" (ha ha). What if people just decide to dive bomb into a corner at the last possible moment? There will always be a point, on the straight, where the attacking driver will have some part of his car alongside the defending one if they decide they're just going to brake impossibly late. 

 

OR we can go back to the accepted default - The driver in front has the right to the racing line, and this WILL cause some incidents of crowding out. This to me is the most logical path inspite of the issues it will cause with aggressive drivers 


Edited by SparkPlug, 12 July 2022 - 06:31.


#26 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 12 July 2022 - 06:32

Where did Max force the other friver to lift in AD?

#27 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 12 July 2022 - 07:06

The problem is - the "rule" can be abused both ways. While there are a lot of instances of drivers crowding others out on the outside / inside in recent years, there is also the exact opposite scenario - one where the driver behind uses a very sub-optimal line and gets his car up along the outside or inside just before a corner with little hope of making it either through the corner itself or the subsequent straight. Max on lap 1 of Abu Dhabi 2021 and Lewis at Silverstone 2021 are two very clear examples of how this rule can be abused by even the top drivers in the sport. In both these instances, neither Max (at Abu Dhabi) or Lewis (at Silverstone) were going to make it through the corner without either heavily compromising their line or taking out the driver in front unless he lifted.

There doesn't seem to be a clear answer here, except "respect the spirit of the rule" (ha ha). What if people just decide to dive bomb into a corner at the last possible moment? There will always be a point, on the straight, where the attacking driver will have some part of his car alongside the defending one if they decide they're just going to brake impossibly late.

OR we can go back to the accepted default - The driver in front has the right to the racing line, and this WILL cause some incidents of crowding out. This to me is the most logical path inspite of the issues it will cause with aggressive drivers


This thread is about leaving space on a straight (not the corners). Let’s not get sidetracked please.

#28 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,684 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 12 July 2022 - 07:23

I find that a very strange statement.

I've been watching racing drivers do everything possible to maintain their position across many categories for nearly 30 years and only in the last few years I've seen this change to the attitude of calling foul and people shouting "that's not fair"

It's really becoming pretty daft and I just don't understand this attitude at all. There are very few things I'm seeing that I would really consider dangerous and yet there will be an overreaction of "those actions will get someone killed"

This is real life not Scalextric

It's because defending has got more aggressive over the years. It's not just about danger. It's about it being possible to overtake. Allow anything in defence and you'll soon see how hard it becomes. Weaving / just stick to the inside and shove off the passing car on the outside etc.

#29 MattK9

MattK9
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 12 July 2022 - 12:57

The Rosberg Alonso incident in Bahrain was 2011 I believe. Rosberg cut across Alonso all the way to the white line leaving no room for Alonso so he had to check up.

 

I remember Alonso being very angry on the radio - "All the time you have to leave the space".

 

Rosberg didnt recieve a penalty and ever since then you dont have to leave a car width on straights.



#30 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,684 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:01

The Rosberg Alonso incident in Bahrain was 2011 I believe. Rosberg cut across Alonso all the way to the white line leaving no room for Alonso so he had to check up.

 

I remember Alonso being very angry on the radio - "All the time you have to leave the space".

 

Rosberg didnt recieve a penalty and ever since then you dont have to leave a car width on straights.

 

I don't think Alonso was ever even partly alongside Rosberg.

 

 

Edit - It's difficult to tell where his front wing is actually, but it's not the best example. Drivers have moved across on people well alongside them.


Edited by PlatenGlass, 12 July 2022 - 13:02.


#31 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 22,991 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:34

The Rosberg Alonso incident in Bahrain was 2011 I believe. Rosberg cut across Alonso all the way to the white line leaving no room for Alonso so he had to check up.

I remember Alonso being very angry on the radio - "All the time you have to leave the space".

Rosberg didnt recieve a penalty and ever since then you dont have to leave a car width on straights.

Alonso never had an overlap. Where a car has an overlap, a car’s width has to be given on the straight.

I agree with the view at the top of the thread that a car’s width seems to be defined as:

1. If there’s tarmac outside the white line, enough space to have just a bit of your tyres on the track side of the white line; or

2. If there isn’t tarmac, enough space to fit a car entirely on the track side of the white line.

#32 MattK9

MattK9
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:40

I don't think Alonso was ever even partly alongside Rosberg.

 

Edit - It's difficult to tell where his front wing is actually, but it's not the best example. Drivers have moved across on people well alongside them.

 

I dont think Alonso was alongside Rosberg at any point so it is not the best example, but for me it is the moment when todays poor driving standards became legitimate.



#33 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:49

The Rosberg Alonso incident in Bahrain was 2011 I believe. Rosberg cut across Alonso all the way to the white line leaving no room for Alonso so he had to check up.

 

I remember Alonso being very angry on the radio - "All the time you have to leave the space".

 

Rosberg didnt recieve a penalty and ever since then you dont have to leave a car width on straights.

 

It was the opposite actually (you're thinking of 2012). It led to the below rule clarification by Whiting:

 

Charlie Whiting, the race director of the ruling body the International Motoring Federation (FIA) has now made clear that “any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his.
“Whilst defending in this way, the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.”
In an effort to clarify the ruling, he added: “For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’.”
 
 
After this the rule about leaving a car's width was added to the sporting regs, though it looks like it has since been removed. 


#34 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:53

Alonso never had an overlap. Where a car has an overlap, a car’s width has to be given on the straight.

I agree with the view at the top of the thread that a car’s width seems to be defined as:

1. If there’s tarmac outside the white line, enough space to have just a bit of your tyres on the track side of the white line; or

2. If there isn’t tarmac, enough space to fit a car entirely on the track side of the white line.

 

I agree Gareth, it seems that is how the FIA are judging it too. Though that goes against Wittich saying that the white lines are the track limits at the beginning of the season, let alone the sporting regs. 



#35 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,684 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:53

One thing a driver can do is just not be pushed off. If there's contact, they probably won't try it again. Mark Webber got a penalty at Nurburgring 2009 for trying to put the squeeze on Barrichello and hitting him when Barrichello didn't budge.

#36 MattK9

MattK9
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 12 July 2022 - 13:55

It was the opposite actually (you're thinking of 2012). It led to the below rule clarification by Whiting:

 

Weird then that in 2016 in Spain that Rosberg again didnt recieve any sort of penalty when he and Hamilton collided in the short straight between turns 3 & 4 even though Hamiltons front wing was alongside Rosberg rear wheel.



#37 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,693 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 12 July 2022 - 14:01

Norris got on the radio in Austria and complained about Pérez (I believe it was) not leaving him one car width under braking for T3. (It happens quite often at that corner. Maybe it's difficult for race control/stewards to judge whether a defending car has left the racing line to defend its position or whether it ended up on the right-hand side of the track exiting the T2 left-hand kink?)


Edited by ANF, 12 July 2022 - 14:02.


#38 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 22,892 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 12 July 2022 - 14:13

Alonso Ros Bahrain ‘11 and Ros-Ham Spain ‘16 are very similar except it looks like Alonso backed out to avoid the collision.

#39 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 12 July 2022 - 14:15

Weird then that in 2016 in Spain that Rosberg again didnt recieve any sort of penalty when he and Hamilton collided in the short straight between turns 3 & 4 even though Hamiltons front wing was alongside Rosberg rear wheel.

 

Yes, a bit weird. They noted these rules in their reasoning, but then never ended up punishing Rosberg. Maybe it was because the overlap was only for "fractions of a second". 

 

[Article] 27.7 requires the leading driver to leave room, if there is a “significant portion” of the car attempting to pass alongside.”
 
“Car 44 had a portion of his front wing inside car 6 small fractions of a second prior to car 44 having to leave the right side of the track to avoid an initial collision, which may have led him to believe he had the right to space on the right. Once on the grass on the side of the track car 44 was no longer in control of the situation.”
 
“Having heard extensively from both drivers and from the team, the stewards determined that car 6 had the right to make the manoeuvre that he did and that car 44’s attempt to overtake was reasonable, and that the convergence of events led neither driver to be wholly or predominantly at fault, and therefore take no further action.”
 

Edited by FortiFord, 12 July 2022 - 14:18.


Advertisement

#40 Gareth

Gareth
  • RC Forum Host

  • 22,991 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 12 July 2022 - 14:20

Weird then that in 2016 in Spain that Rosberg again didnt recieve any sort of penalty when he and Hamilton collided in the short straight between turns 3 & 4 even though Hamiltons front wing was alongside Rosberg rear wheel.

Think it was probably as a result of it being a within team squabble, between the only 2 WDC contenders, and no doubt everyone turning up to see the stewards saying (under strict Merc instruction) "nothing to see here, entirely a 50/50 racing incident".