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Austrian GP - Firefighting and Rescue of Sainz


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#1 AlexS

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 21:58

I have still this in my mind, how it was possible so bizarre inept firefighting. There should also be penalties for these situations.

 

 

 

 

Compare with Berger in 1989 at Imola without all modern communication technology. I have read somewhere that now there is need of an order to intervene, i hope that is not true. The Italian marshals in Imola intervened without waiting, yes they risked their lives but that should also be part of the job.

 

 



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#2 Heyli

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:01

That looked scary as hell. Was a bit chaotic, so was happy to see he did make it out ok. 



#3 ANF

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:09

Here's the live, uncut trackside footage of the marshal arriving at the scene and putting the fire out (the footage the director cut away from when things seemed to get really ugly):



Once he got there the fire was put out pretty quickly, but I'm not sure why there was only one marshal and why it took so long for him to get there.



#4 OO7

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:11

I have still this in my mind, how it was possible so bizarre inept firefighting. There should also be penalties for these situations.

 

 

 

 

Compare with Berger in 1989 at Imola without all modern communication technology. I have read somewhere that now there is need of an order to intervene, i hope that is not true. The Italian marshals in Imola intervened without waiting, yes they risked their lives but that should also be part of the job.

 

 

There are cars travelling at high speed around the circuit, so it's my understanding that marshals are trained not to react and quickly rush to the seen to commence the necessary safety protocols, but wait for instructions.  



#5 milestone 11

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:11

I have still this in my mind, how it was possible so bizarre inept firefighting. There should also be penalties for these situations.
 
 
Compare with Berger in 1989 at Imola without all modern communication technology. I have read somewhere that now there is need of an order to intervene, i hope that is not true. The Italian marshals in Imola intervened without waiting, yes they risked their lives but that should also be part of the job.
 

I was convinced Gerhard had perished at the time. Incredible intervention. More than can be said today. What part did the black ATV play if any?

#6 AlexS

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:12

ANF that video is only the final part. The video i posted show the whole thing.

 

You can see even one marshall put extinguisher in the ground and go back to some place instead of going to fight the fire.



#7 milestone 11

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:18

Here's the live, uncut trackside footage of the marshal arriving at the scene and putting the fire out (the footage the director cut away from when things seemed to get really ugly):

Once he got there the fire was put out pretty quickly, but I'm not sure why there was only one marshal and why it took so long for him to get there.

Seeing this makes my question of the black ATV more difficult. Where did they go, just somewhere remote on a bloody jolly.

#8 BoDarvelle

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:18

ANF that video is only the final part. The video i posted show the whole thing.

 

You can see even one marshall put extinguisher in the ground and go back to some place instead of going to fight the fire.

 

It's amazing how inept so many of these crews seem to be at times. I noted the guy setting the extinguisher down then going off somewhere else as it happened and wondered "What is this guy up? His wife call with a grocery list?".

 

Grosjean's wreck as well. The medical guy got in much closer to the fire than the firefighters did. One guy was so far away his extinguisher didn't even make to the fire. Basically did nothing that actually assisted the poor guy.



#9 TecnoRacing

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:24

I'd say the lead marshal (the one who put out the fire) actually did very well. It The wheel chock was a bit inadequate initially, but got the car stopped in the end.


Edited by TecnoRacing, 11 July 2022 - 19:25.


#10 AlexS

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:25

It's amazing how inept so many of these crews seem to be at times. I noted the guy setting the extinguisher down then going off somewhere else as it happened and wondered "What is this guy up? His wife call with a grocery list?".

 

Grosjean's wreck as well. The medical guy got in much closer to the fire than the firefighters did. One guy was so far away his extinguisher didn't even make to the fire. Basically did nothing that actually assisted the poor guy.

 

Yeah the guy that put the extingusher on the ground and departed was even the nearest marshall to the fire. You can see it at 0:25 in the video i posted that can only be seen in Youtube.  The other guy that ended up extinguish most of the fire was several meters behind.


Edited by AlexS, 10 July 2022 - 22:25.


#11 ANF

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:25

ANF that video is only the final part. The video i posted show the whole thing.
 
You can see even one marshall put extinguisher in the ground and go back to some place instead of going to fight the fire.

Yeah, I know it's only the final part but it does show the fire being put out, which we can't see in the video you posted.

I obviously don't know why the first marshal put that extinguisher down. I can only guess he had brought the wrong type of extinguisher. Maybe he had left the marshal post with an extinguisher before they realised it was a fuel fire? (Anyway, here's a sad example of marshals trying to put out a fuel fire with the wrong kind of extinguishant: https://youtu.be/Lt6Zx1ZT7v8 )



#12 Widefoot2

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:29

Yeah the guy that put the extingusher on the ground and departed was even the nearest marshall to the fire. You can see it at 0:25 in the video i posted that can only be seen in Youtube.  The other guy that ended up exteingusih most of the fire was several meters behind.

That marshal did really well, if Carlos could have held the brake pedal down another .5 seconds the chock would have been properly set and held the car. But CS was feeling the heat and (understandably) bailed.  As it is, good on Carlos for turning the front wheels over so that as the car skipped back a bit, the rear steered into the tire wall.  With the front tires straight, it might have moved down the hill a fair bit more. 



#13 milestone 11

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 22:49

It's amazing how inept so many of these crews seem to be at times. I noted the guy setting the extinguisher down then going off somewhere else as it happened and wondered "What is this guy up? His wife call with a grocery list?".
 
Grosjean's wreck as well. The medical guy got in much closer to the fire than the firefighters did. One guy was so far away his extinguisher didn't even make to the fire. Basically did nothing that actually assisted the poor guy.

He must have pissed off with the others in the ATV. He certainly wasn't seen again. Something suspicious there IMO. Neither of the videos are continuous, they've both been cut and had earlier footage added. What's that all about?

#14 milestone 11

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:01

Yeah, I know it's only the final part but it does show the fire being put out, which we can't see in the video you posted.
I obviously don't know why the first marshal put that extinguisher down. I can only guess he had brought the wrong type of extinguisher. Maybe he had left the marshal post with an extinguisher before they realised it was a fuel fire? (Anyway, here's a sad example of marshals trying to put out a fuel fire with the wrong kind of extinguishant: https://youtu.be/Lt6Zx1ZT7v8 )

He runs down the slope, put's it down and walks off, he doesn't appear particularly mobile. He's never seen again. Everything is dealt with by the 2nd marshal and whilst he was fire fighting, the rescue ATV pissed off on a jolly. I've no doubt they'll say they were looking for oil spills. If so, are they allowed to drive against the flow in a VSC? If not, where in fact did they go and for what purpose?

Edited by milestone 11, 10 July 2022 - 23:04.


#15 milestone 11

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:03

I'd say the lead marshal (the one who put out the fire) actually did very well. It The wheel chalk was a bit inadequate initially, but got the car stopped in the end.

He was the only one that did anything at all.

#16 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:36

Here's the live, uncut trackside footage of the marshal arriving at the scene and putting the fire out (the footage the director cut away from when things seemed to get really ugly):



Once he got there the fire was put out pretty quickly, but I'm not sure why there was only one marshal and why it took so long for him to get there.

Thanks for posting. Minus the fact that he wasn't wearing his gloves, that guy actually did a great job. He manaaged to get the chock under the wheel just after it started to roll back again, which is the only reason it eventually stopped. Then he quickly and efficiently put out the fire. Kudos to him.

 

I think the marshals are being told to stay back until the race is under control (which RC took too long to do, imho). What Sainz needed more than anything were (a) someone to stop the car rolling backward, and (b) extinguishing agent on the fire. The marshall with the chock must have just said, **** it, I'm going in. Glad he did.



#17 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:41

He runs down the slope, put's it down and walks off, he doesn't appear particularly mobile. He's never seen again. Everything is dealt with by the 2nd marshal and whilst he was fire fighting, the rescue ATV pissed off on a jolly. I've no doubt they'll say they were looking for oil spills. If so, are they allowed to drive against the flow in a VSC? If not, where in fact did they go and for what purpose?

 I think that guy was going back for his gloves. They should all have their gloves on the entire time.



#18 AlexS

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:44

 I think that guy was going back for his gloves. They should all have their gloves on the entire time.

 

That guy had gloves.  Not know if the right ones but  why anyone with a fire extinguisher would  not have the right gloves?



#19 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:50

Yeah, I know it's only the final part but it does show the fire being put out, which we can't see in the video you posted.

I obviously don't know why the first marshal put that extinguisher down. I can only guess he had brought the wrong type of extinguisher. Maybe he had left the marshal post with an extinguisher before they realised it was a fuel fire? (Anyway, here's a sad example of marshals trying to put out a fuel fire with the wrong kind of extinguishant: https://youtu.be/Lt6Zx1ZT7v8 )

They usually carry "ABC" extinguishers, which means they can use them to extinguish Class A, B, and C fires. They do that because of the likelihood of fuel and oil fires, to simplify the process, speed them up, and reduce the potential for mistakes.



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#20 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:55

That guy had gloves.  Not know if the right ones but  why anyone with a fire extinguisher would  not have the right gloves?

Yeah looking at it again, I see he did have gloves on. I've been around some of the crews at COTA. To be honest, I don't know what it's like in Europe, but at COTA you could tell many of them had very little training or experience. COTA asks for volunteers for pretty much every race, often with no experience necessary. It's not an easy job, even for someone with training. Those without training shouldn't be anywhere near there.


Edited by AustinF1, 11 July 2022 - 04:48.


#21 milestone 11

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Posted 10 July 2022 - 23:57

I think that guy was going back for his gloves. They should all have their gloves on the entire time.

The guy, the only guy, that dealt with it, did so in a superlative manner. He should be applauded. He should though get a bollocking for going into the fire without his gloves on, they're in his hand. It was lucky that his efforts with the chock, caused the wheels to turn so the car rolled into the hoarding. The other guy that dumped the extinguisher and ran away, was actually wearing his gloves. Where he went is anyone's guess. I can only reiterate that he didn't look particularly mobile to me.

Edited by milestone 11, 10 July 2022 - 23:58.


#22 milestone 11

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 00:23

Yeah looking at it again, I see he did have gloves on. I've been around some of the crews at COTA. To be honest, I don't know what it's like in Europe, but at COTA you could tell many of them had very little training or experience. COTA asks for volunteers for pretty much every race, often with no experience necessary. It's not an easy job, even for someone with training. Those without training souldn't be anywhere near there.

It's bloody unfair asking people to marshal in any way without training, let alone act as a fire marshal. My experience would be that in Europe generally, training is a prerequisite. Far too many people under estimate a marshal's role. Maybe a crowd marshal would be possibly asked for were there shortages, which requires little training, though certainly would only undertake the role as a partner to someone experienced.

Edited by milestone 11, 11 July 2022 - 00:24.


#23 Widefoot2

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 00:32

It was lucky that his efforts with the chock, caused the wheels to turn so the car rolled into the hoarding.

That's a good point, it may have been the retardation of the chock that forced the steering to bring the car into  the barrier.  I hope Ferrari buys that marshal a nice dinner as thanks...



#24 Dolph

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 00:37

That was my first thought when it happened live that Sainz should have just turned the wheels left and let the car roll into the wall and it would have taken 3 seconds to stop.



#25 Beggysmalls

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 01:27

Still blows my mind that these cars dont have some kind of brake line lock or a button that jams the car in gear for when they need to park a car on an incline. If that marshall didnt have a chock with him and carlos bails out ( which he absolutely has every right to in that situation ) you have a flaming car rolling back down on to a live track.
Was it the HRT that rolled back down the hill a few years ago at the nurburgring a few years ago?

#26 Autodromo

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 01:27

Running out into an active race track is important if the driver is in danger.  Sainz was in no danger.  The marshals aren't going to risk their lives to save Ferrari a few $$ (well, the ones in Italy might).  Not everyone on every corner station has the same duties and I am guessing that the apparent lack of mobility of the first one with the fire extinguisher (the one who set it down) is a hint he was not supposed to be out on track in that situation.  Amazing that the other guy didn't have his gloves on, though!  



#27 loki

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 02:15

It was likely the car rolled because by that point the hydraulics had burned or boiled and electronics had already burned.

 

Over here in pro racing while there are volunteer corner workers (or flaggers) and there are also pro safety crews (some of the volunteers are well trained off duty first responders too).  The crews have fire equipment but there are dedicated first responders at various places around the track that are dispatched by race control.  The first responders are usually EMTs, paramedics, firefighters or a combination of those.   When I was club racing the volunteer corner workers got training in first aid, basic life saving skills and basic firefighting.  I'd reckon the same thing happens over there too.



#28 baddog

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 02:20

Running out into an active race track is important if the driver is in danger.  Sainz was in no danger.  

 

He was at one point (try 18 secs in the video above) still in a car that was on fire and rolling backwards. That's as in danger as I want to see people thanks!



#29 eibyyz

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 02:35

Still blows my mind that these cars dont have some kind of brake line lock or a button that jams the car in gear for when they need to park a car on an incline. If that marshall didnt have a chock with him and carlos bails out ( which he absolutely has every right to in that situation ) you have a flaming car rolling back down on to a live track.
Was it the HRT that rolled back down the hill a few years ago at the nurburgring a few years ago?

 

This was one of those 'connecting the holes in a swiss cheese' deals that almost went to hell.  On flat ground this would have been insignificant. (And are chocks part of the tools at that marshals' post, or was it just happenstance?)

 

Another thought is that teams now are so cognizant of not damaging their cars lest they blow past the cost cap.  With money to burn, Carlos would have jammed that car into the wall at a prudent speed to worry about the bill later.  



#30 aray

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 03:46

What I don't like is how fast the fire spreads in modern F1 car (just like it used to happened 30-40 years ago) even when there is no crash. :well:



#31 Afterburner

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 04:12

Running out into an active race track is important if the driver is in danger. Sainz was in no danger. The marshals aren't going to risk their lives to save Ferrari a few $$ (well, the ones in Italy might). Not everyone on every corner station has the same duties and I am guessing that the apparent lack of mobility of the first one with the fire extinguisher (the one who set it down) is a hint he was not supposed to be out on track in that situation. Amazing that the other guy didn't have his gloves on, though!

I’ve worked dozens of races and have extinguished a burning race car before. You’ve pretty much got it right. Even in the club races I’ve worked, permission from race control is required to enter a hot track. That takes time to relay from the station’s communicator, particularly if there is a lot going on elsewhere.

For professional races here in the States we are specifically told not to respond to fires. There are dedicated safety crews in Nomex present at every race for that. We are pretty much communications and observers only at this point. I think F1 would also benefit from such a system but it doesn’t seem to be the way things are done in Europe.

#32 Beggysmalls

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 04:25

It was likely the car rolled because by that point the hydraulics had burned or boiled and electronics had already burned.


Im guessing carlos put the car in neutral to allow it roll up the escape road, understand that if the hydraulics/electronics are burned the car wont go back into gear.

The car still had a bake pedal tho something like a simple line lock would at least alow the brakes to be locked on to allow the driver to exit the car.

#33 AustinF1

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 04:41

Running out into an active race track is important if the driver is in danger.  Sainz was in no danger.  The marshals aren't going to risk their lives to save Ferrari a few $$ (well, the ones in Italy might).  Not everyone on every corner station has the same duties and I am guessing that the apparent lack of mobility of the first one with the fire extinguisher (the one who set it down) is a hint he was not supposed to be out on track in that situation.  Amazing that the other guy didn't have his gloves on, though!  

I agree that rescue workers should only risk a little to save a little and risk a lot to save a lot, but I disagree that Sainz was in no danger there.



#34 AustinF1

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 04:44

This was one of those 'connecting the holes in a swiss cheese' deals that almost went to hell.  On flat ground this would have been insignificant. (And are chocks part of the tools at that marshals' post, or was it just happenstance?)

 

Another thought is that teams now are so cognizant of not damaging their cars lest they blow past the cost cap.  With money to burn, Carlos would have jammed that car into the wall at a prudent speed to worry about the bill later.  

If they aren't, they should be. One of the first things firefighters are taught about handling car crashes is that a first priority is stabilization of the vehicle to keep the situation from deteriorating even further.



#35 chrcol

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 04:49

The nearest person actually stopped running and put his canister down as if he was scared to go there, it was the second nearest person who got there, but the situation desperately demanded to have someone hold the car in place.

 

It feels like the marshals have gradually becoming worse and worse and a big step back during covid with manning cutbacks seems to have never been recovered, I think their slow responsiveness has potentially also contributed to the sharp rise in use of SC's as well.

He stopped right near a gap where I would expect at least 4-5 people there ready for immediate response, instead they were running from a much further distance.


Edited by chrcol, 11 July 2022 - 04:50.


#36 CSF

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 07:31

I have still this in my mind, how it was possible so bizarre inept firefighting. There should also be penalties for these situations.

 

 

 

 

Compare with Berger in 1989 at Imola without all modern communication technology. I have read somewhere that now there is need of an order to intervene, i hope that is not true. The Italian marshals in Imola intervened without waiting, yes they risked their lives but that should also be part of the job.

 

 

 

 

What I didn't understand was the marshal beginning to come down the grass with an extinguisher then placing it on the ground and walking back up the hill? 



#37 milestone 11

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 07:43

Nobody has addressed the whereabouts of the black ATV. Where did it go?

#38 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 07:57

What I didn't understand was the marshal beginning to come down the grass with an extinguisher then placing it on the ground and walking back up the hill?


I guessed he went back for another one.

#39 Beri

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:02

I might be the only one, but I see a situation where a car is stopped and Marshalls are quick at the scene. The only variable that made it so hard, is a car rolling back. Which left Sainz sitting in the car to prevent this happening and was the true reason as to why it took so long and looked dangerous.
Long story short; it looked worse than it was.

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#40 macjim

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:11

It didn't look pretty on the world feed, almost heard the "Benny Hill" music in the background, the car being on a slope didn't help.

 

There are some nasty images of the flames around Carlos's helmet when he was getting out of the cockpit, dread to think if he had been unconscious.

 

FIA needs to up it's game here, you can see other "Marshals" standing about just looking at the single guy trying to put the fire out.



#41 milestone 11

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:11

I might be the only one, but I see a situation where a car is stopped and Marshalls are quick at the scene. The only variable that made it so hard, is a car rolling back. Which left Sainz sitting in the car to prevent this happening and was the true reason as to why it took so long and looked dangerous.
Long story short; it looked worse than it was.

One marshal!

#42 Fonzey

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:17

Does anyone recall seeing the onboard plumbed in fire extinguishers doing anything of any significance in recent history? I just had to google to see if they still existed or not. 

 

Surely we should be seeing a car like Sainz' explode in a mushroom of powder as it coasts in towards the exit road?



#43 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:21

Still blows my mind that these cars dont have some kind of brake line lock or a button that jams the car in gear for when they need to park a car on an incline. If that marshall didnt have a chock with him and carlos bails out ( which he absolutely has every right to in that situation ) you have a flaming car rolling back down on to a live track.
Was it the HRT that rolled back down the hill a few years ago at the nurburgring a few years ago?

 

It was this years 24h of the Nurburgring iirc with the car rolling back while burning.



#44 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:22

Does anyone recall seeing the onboard plumbed in fire extinguishers doing anything of any significance in recent history? I just had to google to see if they still existed or not. 

 

Surely we should be seeing a car like Sainz' explode in a mushroom of powder as it coasts in towards the exit road?

 

Indeed, they extinguished the driver most of the time during a pitstop when someone triggered the wrong button. :p


Edited by SenorSjon, 11 July 2022 - 08:23.


#45 absinthedude

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:24

What I didn't understand was the marshal beginning to come down the grass with an extinguisher then placing it on the ground and walking back up the hill? 

 

It looks like he is doing that deliberately. And I don't get the "not mobile" comments, he runs away...but not with the body language of someone who is scared, it looks like he's doing something he's bee instructed to do.

 

there may be more to this than meets the untrained eye. I'd love to hear what the forum members who have worked as marshals make of it all.

 

I totally get that they need to be careful about entering the track area. No point putting themselves or other drivers at risk. After all, we all know what happens when a marshal carrying a fire extinguisher gets hit by An F1 car.....that is the very reasons there are protocols....

 

The F1 rules state that when coming to a stop, a driver must leave the car in neutral. And there is no "handbrake" or similar device. Part of the issue here was that the car caught fire in a way we rarely see these days, even bits apparently exploding within, and it was on an incline. So Sainz did what he was supposed to do, put the car in neutral - though at that point it is possible that no gears could be selected anyway. Kudos to the marshal who acted quickly with the chock, and got the fire out. 



#46 CSF

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:44

It looks like he is doing that deliberately. And I don't get the "not mobile" comments, he runs away...but not with the body language of someone who is scared, it looks like he's doing something he's bee instructed to do.

 

there may be more to this than meets the untrained eye. I'd love to hear what the forum members who have worked as marshals make of it all.

 

I totally get that they need to be careful about entering the track area. No point putting themselves or other drivers at risk. After all, we all know what happens when a marshal carrying a fire extinguisher gets hit by An F1 car.....that is the very reasons there are protocols....

 

 

I wasn't suggesting he ran away because he was "scared" it just seemed to be a slightly odd thing that happened. 



#47 William Hunt

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:45

That marshall did indeed do well, his taks was made much more difficult with the car not standing still and he tried to find a solution for that. What I found strange was: why wasn't there another marshal helping him with the fire?



#48 Youichi

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:56

Nobody has addressed the whereabouts of the black ATV. Where did it go?

I think it went to cover the marshals, by which I mean, it was positioned between the Ferrari and the track, so that any other cars going off would have hit it, and not the marshals.

Watch the end of the incident, as the Ferrari is pushed behind the barriers, the truck is still between it and the track.



#49 midgrid

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:59

Still blows my mind that these cars dont have some kind of brake line lock or a button that jams the car in gear for when they need to park a car on an incline. If that marshall didnt have a chock with him and carlos bails out ( which he absolutely has every right to in that situation ) you have a flaming car rolling back down on to a live track.
Was it the HRT that rolled back down the hill a few years ago at the nurburgring a few years ago?


https://youtu.be/17uc1h1uD2U

#50 jpm2019

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 08:59

Sainz was crazy to not get out earlier. I understand the car was rolling away, but common.