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Alex Palou SHOCK move to McLaren for 2023! (Split)


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#1251 red stick

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 18:58

For all the suggestions of management incompetence Palou has got a pay rise and F1 testing out of it

Surely you're not endorsing the extraordinarily high risk approach taken.  "All's well that ends well" should not be an excuse, or the phrase you put on your management ad brochure.



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#1252 MattPete

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 19:00

What is up with MiM in the first place? I'm sure they get their percentage cut*, but the amount of effort they have put into their schemes must put them in the red. First trying to start an F1 team around Palou, then sending him to SuperFormula, then hooking up his SuperFormula team with Coyne for Indycar, then this whole McLaren Fiasco.  If he was only making $200k, their slice of the pie couldn't have paid for all of that effort.

 

* I hope he didn't sign some crazy contract years ago that puts him in debt.



#1253 MattPete

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 19:01

I'm just glad the Felix stays with McLaren.



#1254 pacificquay

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 19:03

Surely you're not endorsing the extraordinarily high risk approach taken.  "All's well that ends well" should not be an excuse, or the phrase you put on your management ad brochure.

No, not at all, it annoys me they made McLaren look bad when Zachariah Brown has been very correct in all this.

 

All I’m saying is it’s fortunate things have worked out for the best.



#1255 juicy sushi

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 19:11

What is up with MiM in the first place? I'm sure they get their percentage cut*, but the amount of effort they have put into their schemes must put them in the red. First trying to start an F1 team around Palou, then sending him to SuperFormula, then hooking up his SuperFormula team with Coyne for Indycar, then this whole McLaren Fiasco.  If he was only making $200k, their slice of the pie couldn't have paid for all of that effort.

 

* I hope he didn't sign some crazy contract years ago that puts him in debt.

I think that the Super Formula to Coyne move was more of a Honda decision, with funding from corporate.  They do have a budget that pays for some drivers, and the revival of the team Goh name to disguise the cash made sense for them.  The move to Super Formula itself though could well have been on MiM, but I don't know how they came up with the cash or connections to the Japanese motorsport scene to get that opening.



#1256 Dolph

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 21:23

what is MiM?



#1257 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 21:28

I think that the Super Formula to Coyne move was more of a Honda decision, with funding from corporate.  They do have a budget that pays for some drivers, and the revival of the team Goh name to disguise the cash made sense for them.  The move to Super Formula itself though could well have been on MiM, but I don't know how they came up with the cash or connections to the Japanese motorsport scene to get that opening.

 

Audetto's Super Aguri history?

There hasn't been much of a Super Formula to Indycar pipeline historically, and it's strange if you think about it.


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 14 September 2022 - 21:28.


#1258 Myrvold

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 21:50

what is MiM?

 

Monaco Increase Management. https://monacoincrease.com/

The management of Palou, Pascal Wehrlein and David Vidales.

 

There were trying to start up an F1 team a couple of years ago with Campos. Planned to use... Wehrlein and Palou as the drivers.



#1259 teejay

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 23:02

What a wild ride it's been in F1 and Indycar for the drivers market. 



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#1260 loki

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 02:19

For all the suggestions of management incompetence Palou has got a pay rise and F1 testing out of it

And damaged his rep with any of the teams in the Indycar paddock where he could win a championship.  He could have done this behind closed doors but instead decided to be publically confrontational.  Not a good look.  It could have led to his sitting out the 2023 season.



#1261 red stick

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 02:31

Palou is fortunate that when "Chip likes winners" struggled with "Chip values loyalty," he had the right hole card.  :cool:  



#1262 Clrnc

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 02:46

I'm just glad the Felix stays with McLaren.

Same. Don't think replacing Felix with Palou is worth 10m difference

#1263 krapmeister

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 03:19

Pruett tells us how this all went down

https://racer.com/20...he-fever-dream/

#1264 juicy sushi

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 03:40

That does not reflect well on certain individuals. In order, those individuals were: someone being too cheap, someone being too greedy, someone being too stupid, and then everyone being too stupid. Now, as the tale suggests, several people are unable to be happy, because they were dumb in the past.

#1265 red stick

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 04:05

I go back and forth on the Chip being cheap argument. Making shrewd deals is part of the game. Maybe it would have been wiser to renegotiate, or maybe, despite all the public pronouncements about how happy Palou was to be in IndyCar, they sensed the lack of permanence that ended up being revealed publicly this summer.  So even if you're inclined to acknowledge greatness and renegotiate, let's say it's one thing if you think you're building the future and dealing with the next Dixon, a guy who will carry your team for years; perhaps another if your solution to the succession issue, well, isn't.  I'm just thinking the inside game may have been a little different than the one we've assumed we've been seeing.

But it was the long way home, for certain.


Edited by red stick, 15 September 2022 - 12:41.


#1266 OvDrone

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 04:21

Palou is a lucky, lucky lad - but eh, you make your own luck, with most recently winning by half a minute over the others.

Gnarly lesson in not being so naive and completely out of step with management. We could've lost something special. 

Hope the relationship can heal and get more success in the future. There's always a chance at redemption.





PS - Pato being there as Palou tests a McLaren F1 car... holy sh** why are McLaren so bloody intent on making O'Ward's life so infinitely awkward lol



#1267 red stick

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 04:27

A frequent reminder to Pato that his reach exceeds his grasp? Maybe Zak's a Browning fan.

#1268 OvDrone

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 04:31

Someone, somewhere is putting the kid in his place, that's for sure.



#1269 loki

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 04:46

I go back and forth on the Chip being cheap argument. Making shrewd deals is part of the game. Maybe it would have been wiser to renegotiate, or maybe, despite all the public pronouncements about how happy Palou was to be in IndyCar, they sensed the lack of permanence that ended up being revealed publicly this summer. It's one thing if you think you're building the future and dealing with the next Dixon, perhaps another if your solution to the succession issue, well, isn't. I'm just thinking the inside game may be a little different than the one we've assumed we're seeing.

But it was the long way home, for certain.

 

It was said that the initial deal was poorly negotiated by management.   No one, not Ganassi, Palou or anyone saw him winning the championship this quick when they signed him.  More money was offered but then rescinded when they heard he was talking to to McLaren.  He shot himself in the foot.



#1270 Showty

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 07:34

Palou has already signed to be McLaren F1 reserve driver starting on 2023.

https://soymotor.com...ormula-1-999833

Edited by Showty, 15 September 2022 - 07:36.


#1271 rghojai

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 07:43

A frequent reminder to Pato that his reach exceeds his grasp? Maybe Zak's a Browning fan.


Smith & Wesson?

#1272 CSF

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 08:02

Pruett tells us how this all went down

https://racer.com/20...he-fever-dream/

 

 

Stop, he's already dead!  :(



#1273 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 09:27

Palou will not have damaged his reputation with other Imdycar teams, they like to win and he has shown he can win races and the Championship, if a team start looking for a driver and Palou is available he will get a lot of looks.



#1274 BRG

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 09:54

Audetto's Super Aguri history?

There hasn't been much of a Super Formula to Indycar pipeline historically, and it's strange if you think about it.

Good point.  With Honda powering approximately half of both series, and the US being an important market for Honda, why don't they ship their best SF boys over to Indycar?  They have done that with F1 several times, giving us wonderful memories like Satoru Nakajima and currently Yuki Tsunoda.



#1275 jonpollak

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 10:07

Palou has already signed to be McLaren F1 reserve driver starting on 2023.

https://soymotor.com...ormula-1-999833


Es verdad Sñr.
0-D8-EBC6-F-0668-4861-B567-D99-A18-CEB03
Jp

#1276 Peat

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 10:22

Barcelona will be brutal on their necks. 



#1277 noriaki

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 10:32

Good point. With Honda powering approximately half of both series, and the US being an important market for Honda, why don't they ship their best SF boys over to Indycar? They have done that with F1 several times, giving us wonderful memories like Satoru Nakajima and currently Yuki Tsunoda.


Honda has nearly continuously fielded one or two Japanese drivers in Indycar since 1999 - it's just been Sato for the last 10 years. But before Taku, there were Hattori, Nakano, Matsuura and Mutoh.

#1278 BRG

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 11:09

Honda has nearly continuously fielded one or two Japanese drivers in Indycar since 1999 - it's just been Sato for the last 10 years. But before Taku, there were Hattori, Nakano, Matsuura and Mutoh.

Sato surely only found his way to Indycars after his tenure in F1 expired and Honda felt they had to place him somewhere.  And pretty successfully too.

 

But I am not sure the others were the best that Japan - or Honda- could have offered?



#1279 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 11:13

Pruett tells us how this all went down

https://racer.com/20...he-fever-dream/

 

It's weird that someone like Jenna Fryer, who is basically embedded with that team, doesn't really have any exclusives or insights.

 

Pruett's "piece" at least lays out a narrative, though some of it raises more questions than answers. Like, is Palou signed for 2024 too? And the clause about them offering a new contract for a year covered by existing contract, which would then allow an out on said contract is....why would you make your own contract so complicated?



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#1280 red stick

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 13:05

Nathan Brown's take on the winners and losers from Affaire Palou at the Indy Star.  Paywall.

 

https://www.indystar...nt/69493957007/

 

Basically:

Palou won (in the short term) because he's getting a pay bump and chance to sample F1 machinery.

Ganassi won because he retains his best option to keep the #10 competitive.

Rosenqvist won because he gets to stay in IndyCar with a team that gives him a decent shot at the title.

O'Ward won because he gets to keep a good friend he works well with as teammate.

 

Juncos lost because, in seeking someone to partner Ilott who had more experience and was a good driver to work with, both as mentor and someone who could aid development, Rosenqvist was at the top of the list.


Edited by red stick, 15 September 2022 - 13:54.


#1281 noriaki

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 14:57

Sato surely only found his way to Indycars after his tenure in F1 expired and Honda felt they had to place him somewhere.  And pretty successfully too.

 

But I am not sure the others were the best that Japan - or Honda- could have offered?

 

Hattori and Nakano were quite big names for Japanese motorsport, probably the biggest names Honda had available for the US at the time - Naoki placed 2nd in 1996 Formula Nippon before they (unsuccessfully) sent him to Indy Lights for 1997-1998, before undertaking a part-time CART season in 1999. Then they had their former F1 driver in Nakano to replace him, but his 3-year tenure in the series was also unfruitful.

 

Then Honda changed their approach to moulding young prospects into Indycar drivers instead, and both Matsuura and Mutoh after them were Aguri Suzuki's projects. Both of them turned out rather average, really - but who else did Honda have? In the 2000's, F. Nippon was dominated by foreign talent, and the only Japanese Honda aligned driver who seemed to be any sort of competitive with them was Takashi Kogure, and I don't know enough about the man to say whether he had any aspirations to race overseas. 

 

When Sato gets replaced full time, be it 2023 or 2024, I will be surprised if it won't be somebody from Super Formula! 



#1282 juicy sushi

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 19:14

Would be quite a surprise if they don’t offer it to Nojiri or Yamamoto.

#1283 juicy sushi

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 20:13

It's weird that someone like Jenna Fryer, who is basically embedded with that team, doesn't really have any exclusives or insights.

 

Pruett's "piece" at least lays out a narrative, though some of it raises more questions than answers. Like, is Palou signed for 2024 too? And the clause about them offering a new contract for a year covered by existing contract, which would then allow an out on said contract is....why would you make your own contract so complicated?

I am wondering if Palou/MIM thought it worked in that complicated way, but it was much more simple than that.  The old contract remained in force unless the new contract was signed.  Rejecting it just meant the existing contract continued to remain in force.  And they thought it didn't, but Ganassi knew it did.  And the legal process made Palou/MIM aware that their understanding of reality was incorrect.



#1284 juicy sushi

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 20:15

Sato surely only found his way to Indycars after his tenure in F1 expired and Honda felt they had to place him somewhere.  And pretty successfully too.

 

But I am not sure the others were the best that Japan - or Honda- could have offered?

The Japanese driver development pipeline was never very well organized or systemic, and with only Honda making any attempt to cultivate drivers for international adventure, the small talent pool was even more restricted by the smaller size of Honda vs its domestic rivals.  The drivers Honda brought through might well have been the best that were available at the time, given what they were trying to do.



#1285 red stick

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 20:35

I am wondering if Palou/MIM thought it worked in that complicated way, but it was much more simple than that. The old contract remained in force unless the new contract was signed. Rejecting it just meant the existing contract continued to remain in force. And they thought it didn't, but Ganassi knew it did. And the legal process made Palou/MIM aware that their understanding of reality was incorrect.


I'm reminded once more of my first year law school Contracts professor, Jerome Reichman, who in such cases of confusion suggested the first thing to do was "Pick up the phone" and contact the other party to make sure you were on the same page. Such simple advice, so rarely followed, and so expensive when disregarded.

Edited by red stick, 15 September 2022 - 20:39.


#1286 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 21:12

Not sure that would work here because if you're trying to allow CGR(suck it) to make a technical fault to your advantage you don't spell it out for them.

 

However I would get the most pessimistic lawyer I could find to shoot holes in my theory first, before embarking on such a play.


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 15 September 2022 - 21:13.


#1287 red stick

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 21:14

The assumption that CGR didn't understand its own contract is what I find strange.  But, touche.  Worked so well for MiM.



#1288 Frood

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 21:15

Would be quite a surprise if they don’t offer it to Nojiri or Yamamoto.


There was an article earlier in the year which suggests it's likely to be Otsu, Sasahara, or Makino.

#1289 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 23:10

I wonder what concessions Palou had to make to keep the ride... I bet a raise is off the table for the rest of the contract.

Maybe I'm a softie, but I think it would be a bad move for Chip to squeeze while Palou's balls are in his hand.  He needs to plan for beyond 2023, and leaving Palou resentful rather than grateful is not a good way to retain him.



#1290 taran

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Posted 16 September 2022 - 07:36

Maybe I'm a softie, but I think it would be a bad move for Chip to squeeze while Palou's balls are in his hand.  He needs to plan for beyond 2023, and leaving Palou resentful rather than grateful is not a good way to retain him.

I agree in general but it depends on what Ganassi wants to achieve.

If it is to have Palou as his team long-term driver, then a conciliatory approach is best.

 

If he just wants a good driver for 2023 (because all other desirable drivers were not available for 2023) while deciding on a long-term replacement, then squeezing Palou's balls hard will send a strong message to all other drivers that Ganassi does not reward disloyalty. Pour encourager les autres.....



#1291 red stick

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Posted 16 September 2022 - 15:39

I don't know that anybody in the paddock looks at this as something to file away for future use. Even if McLaren covered some of the bills.

#1292 prty

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 20:58

Exclusive interview with Palou (auto-translated captions available):

 


Edited by prty, 19 September 2022 - 21:34.


#1293 jonpollak

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 22:52

He looks like a dick in the McUniform.
Knowing what we know. Even though his Mgmt got him an Increase… they still look foolish.
Jp

#1294 FLB

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 22:49

I can't believe I'm just discovering Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s podcast, because it's fantastic. They actually get Chip Ganassi to talk about the Palou contract issue and he doesn't seem to hold any grudge against him. I think it's another matter about McLaren, though... Oh, and Honda was worried he'd take info to McLaren.

 



#1295 juicy sushi

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Posted 28 February 2024 - 21:29

The-Race has a summary of the latest McLaren court filing:  https://www.the-race...oward-pay-rise/

 

I have to say, blaming Palou for having to pay more for Pato is a hell of a way to insult your current star driver by saying he's not worth what he's being paid.  Also contains the statement that Malukas is a cut below because they don't get bonus money from GM for having another "A-level" talent.