189 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

Ralf Schumacher did a demo with his old Beemer from 2003 in Austria.

https://hungary.post...3-Williams.html

 

Can't find a more elaborate source that isn't a Hungarian translation (and I understand not a word if in Hungarian).

 

Some data:

2003: Ralf's Q-laptime: 1:10.279 (Montoya: 1:08.839). Pole was 1:07.908 and FL 1:08.337 (both Michael Schumacher). Qualification was 1-lap runs, second qualifying was on race fuel levels.

2022: Pole 1:04.984 FL 1:07.275 (both Verstappen).

 

Modifications to the Williams:

100 hp reduction (850 instead of 950)

2k RPM earlier shifts to preserve the engine for future demo runs.

Slick(!) tires from Pirelli instead of the grooved Michelins from 2003.

 

Things in favor of the old car

- about 200 kg less weight

- hp available at all times

- unobstructed view due to smaller tires without teatrays and halo.

 

Things in favor of the new car

- 20 years of aero and floor development

- more hp, yet not always at the driver's fingertips.

- more torque

- bigger tires for more grip

- the persons driving it are a lot younger than the one driving the 2003 BMW in 2022.

 

 

Did anyone have laptimes? Or perhaps footage so we can clock times ourselves?

Schumacher won't give the laptimes:

 

 

His laps were also measured on the track, and although he stated that he would not give the exact time, he confirmed that in such a setup (that is, on slicks) he proved to be faster than the 2022 cars.

Edited by SenorSjon, 13 July 2022 - 15:01.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The tires would be key. 20 years of tire development plus slicks might make even a Pirelli better than a tire war Michelin.

[ANF]

Things in favor of the old car
- about 200 kg less weight
- hp available at all times
- unobstructed view due to smaller tires without teatrays and halo.

You forgot
- traction control
- automatic upshifts and downshifts

 

(But I don't know if these driver aids were enabled on the demo car.)

Edited by ANF, 13 July 2022 - 14:10.

[Francesc]

It was a Williams.

[Thanatos]

Video here:  https://www.instagra...tv/Cf29RyAM3gr/

 

That sound and the sense of speed is incredible. 

Edited by Thanatos, 13 July 2022 - 14:35.

[CSF]

"Ralf Schumacher claims"

[Ross Stonefeld]

Video here:  https://www.instagra...tv/Cf29RyAM3gr/

 

That sound and the sense of speed is incredible. 

 

None of those laps back it up but maybe in the data, sector times, or individual corners he was 'faster' and then with some extrapolation(that may not be linear) we came to these speed claims?

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 13 July 2022 - 14:46.

[Scaboo22]

I claim that I'd be faster than Max in that RedBull. Hold my beer. 

[as65p]

Video here:  https://www.instagra...tv/Cf29RyAM3gr/

 

That sound and the sense of speed is incredible. 

Fastest I clocked was around 1:15, so computers says no.

[TomNokoe]

Vettel also mentioned that the 92 Williams he drove at Silverstone felt quicker in the slower corners than his Aston

[juicy sushi]

Similar power, much less weight, but also much less downforce.  And suspension that perhaps cannot fully use the tires.  I think the car could possibly get within a couple of seconds of pole in Austria, assuming a good enough driver.  But I think ultimately the 2003 car would just be slower.

 

An older car from the 1992-or-so era with about a metre less wheelbase will definitely feel much quicker in slow corners, even if the actual time isn't.

[OO7]

Vettel also mentioned that the 92 Williams he drove at Silverstone felt quicker in the slower corners than his Aston

Not surprising.  The FW14b with Vettel at the helm weighs in at around 575kg, while the AMR22 is 798kg including the driver, so a 223kg difference.  The FW14b is also around 150mm wider.

[OO7]

Similar power, much less weight, but also much less downforce.  And suspension that perhaps cannot fully use the tires.  I think the car could possibly get within a couple of seconds of pole in Austria, assuming a good enough driver.  But I think ultimately the 2003 car would just be slower.

 

An older car from the 1992-or-so era with about a metre less wheelbase will definitely feel much quicker in slow corners, even if the actual time isn't.

The difference in wheelbase is around 600 - 700mm, so very significant but not quite 1 metre.

Edited by OO7, 13 July 2022 - 16:01.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Similar power, much less weight, but also much less downforce.  And suspension that perhaps cannot fully use the tires.  I think the car could possibly get within a couple of seconds of pole in Austria, assuming a good enough driver.  But I think ultimately the 2003 car would just be slower.

 

An older car from the 1992-or-so era with about a metre less wheelbase will definitely feel much quicker in slow corners, even if the actual time isn't.

 

Pole 2003-2022 only needs a 3 second improvement. You can do that with tires overnight.

[PayasYouRace]

Pole 2003-2022 only needs a 3 second improvement. You can do that with tires overnight.

 

Though it should be noted that it wasn't the Williams on pole in 2003, so it needs a bit more overnight. Then again, evidence shows just putting Montoya in the car would account for most of that anyway.

[thegamer23]

 

[Dolph]

I found it interesting that when the pace car cleared off Ralf put the hammer down and I was pretty shocked actually. I thought he would find his feet and build speed, but it seemed he switched to 100% immediately. Also beautiful lines through the corners. I'm sure he had smth in reserve, but the appearance is like he hasn't been away at all.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Not surprising.  The FW14b with Vettel at the helm weighs in at around 575kg, while the AMR22 is 798kg including the driver, so a 223kg difference.  The FW14b is also around 150mm wider.

Being more exposed probably increases the sense of speed too.

[thegamer23]

I found it interesting that when the pace car cleared off Ralf put the hammer down and I was pretty shocked actually. I thought he would find his feet and build speed, but it seemed he switched to 100% immediately. Also beautiful lines through the corners. I'm sure he had smth in reserve, but the appearance is like he hasn't been away at all.

I was surprised too, Ralf was really pushing expecially in Sector 1.

a lot of margin in Sector 2 & 3 tho, but there's gravel there, so understandable! 

[juicy sushi]

Pole 2003-2022 only needs a 3 second improvement. You can do that with tires overnight.

Assuming you can use the tires.  The kinetics of the tires on a narrow track car like the 2003 are very different to the 2022 car, so I think there might be a valid question about if the car can actually get the tires into the window, and maintain them.  You might get a single decent lap out of them, and then the tires would be blistered.  Or you might never get the tires into the temperature window.

[juicy sushi]

The difference in wheelbase is around 600 - 700mm, so very significant but quite 1 metre.

Hence I said "about." And it's close enough that the point is valid.

[Jovanotti]

https://www.youtube....h?v=RROmKNSLr2s

https://www.youtube....h?v=FiiWv7nr9MQ

Beautiful. The racing might have been ****, but car wise up to 2005 was peak F1. Just feels so much more special compared to any other series than today.

[RekF1]

Beautiful. The racing might have been ****, but car wise up to 2005 was peak F1. Just feels so much more special compared to any other series than today.

It's the noise. Sounds like a million cats screaming at eachother.

[PlatenGlass]

He seemed to brake quite early and not be that committed in the corners I thought, so maybe extrapolating from that, a current driver who was more committed might be faster than a current car!

[DS27]

Nice to be reminded every now and again of what F1 should / could be

[balage06]

The claim itself was BS of course, he did like 1:14's.

[Dan333SP]

Beautiful. The racing might have been ****, but car wise up to 2005 was peak F1. Just feels so much more special compared to any other series than today.

 

First lap of a V10-era race in person was the greatest visceral experience you can have at a race track, I cannot be convinced otherwise. Utter spine tingling stuff. Seeing one lapping by itself and being pushed is great, 22 was better. 

[Henri Greuter]

Nice to be reminded every now and again of what F1 should / could be

 

Let's ask Zhou if he wanted to have had his Silverstone crash in his 2022 Sauber or in something what F1 should / could be.

Or Grosjeasn the same question about his final F1 race adventure.

[Alfisti]

Proper god damn engine, how i loathe this hybrid stuff. i know, i know themanufacturers have to justify the investment but **** me..... wreeeeeeeeeeeee................wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. wreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. ....... grrr.......grrr.......grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Jellyfishcake]

Let's ask Zhou if he wanted to have had his Silverstone crash in his 2022 Sauber or in something what F1 should / could be.

Or Grosjeasn the same question about his final F1 race adventure.

 

Saying that who knows how the cars would crash if it'd been 2003, the cars were so much shorter they might have missed Zhou.

 

(Tongue in cheek) 

[loki]

My boss at the time had a 2000 Z8 and I’d bet dollars to donuts it was faster than the current Williams…

[JeePee]

Saying that who knows how the cars would crash if it'd been 2003, the cars were so much shorter they might have missed Zhou.

 

(Tongue in cheek) 

The cars also carried a lot less kinetic energy, so in 2003 no car would go through the wall at Bahrain like Grosjean did. Not tongue in cheek.

[PayasYouRace]

The cars also carried a lot less kinetic energy, so in 2003 no car would go through the wall at Bahrain like Grosjean did. Not tongue in cheek.

 

Impossible to say one way or the other. A 2003 car would be perfectly capable of being snagged by armco. If that's not tongue in cheek then it's making unsupported claims.

[PayasYouRace]

Nice to be reminded every now and again of what F1 should / could be

 

Engines, yeah I'll give you that. Tiny, narrow junior formula size things on grooved tyres, not so much.

[juicy sushi]

The current motors are expensive, but they are some amazing pieces of kit and I really like them.  I find the massive increase in length to be a bigger F1 problem, and that really should have been prevented.  If we're moving on from critiquing Ralf's pronouncements to fantasizing about our ideal F1, then the ugly high-nose, narrow-track, grooved tire cars are definitely not things I would like to see back.  As race cars they were terrible.  And on TV, they sound like garbage.

[milestone 11]

At least it's still capable of turning a lap, unlike today's crap which no one will ever be able to start.

[BoDarvelle]

Vettel also mentioned that the 92 Williams he drove at Silverstone felt quicker in the slower corners than his Aston

 

With good, anywhere near equivalent tires, it should be. Slow corners are about mechanical grip as there is little downforce. Weight is the enemy in corners and the old Williams has a lot less of it while being slightly wider which is also a plus. 

[danmills]

Ralf absolutely gave it full beans, impressive given how long hes not been at racing peak.

[PayasYouRace]

This reminds me of my stalled F1 pace since 1950 project. I might need to pick it back up when I get the chance.

[Dolph]

Interestingly Ralf said in the interview that they had his old seat and pedal setting so it fit him very well. He also said he hadn't driven a racing car since 2012. So 10 years and you are full blast in an F1 car 

[FirstnameLastname]

Maybe with a better driver

Always the bridesmaid.

[MikeTekRacing]

Interestingly Ralf said in the interview that they had his old seat and pedal setting so it fit him very well. He also said he hadn't driven a racing car since 2012. So 10 years and you are full blast in an F1 car 

I think in our forum debates we forget just how special these drivers are. 

Yeah, some are really unique and win more, but most of them are among the best of the best in single seaters 

[Beri]

 
https://www.youtube....h?v=FiiWv7nr9MQ

Thank you. You made me cry. A grown man. From happiness.

[ForzaFormula]

 

 

What a car and sound, with slick tyres, and a current F1 driver up to fitness and speed it would be faster than current cars. Don't forget to add DRS....or discount the DRS advantage current cars have.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 13 July 2022 - 22:06.

[F1Johnny]

Interestingly Ralf said in the interview that they had his old seat and pedal setting so it fit him very well. He also said he hadn't driven a racing car since 2012. So 10 years and you are full blast in an F1 car 

 

10 years out of a racing car 

 

He was on it and was quite smooth moving from corner to corner.  Amazing!

[P123]

Here it is driven to the limit - 

 

With DRS and slicks I'm sure a few seconds could be trimmed off, so Ralf's claim perhaps not far fetched.

Edited by P123, 13 July 2022 - 22:25.

[as65p]

Here it is driven to the limit -

With DRS and slicks I'm sure a few seconds could be trimmed off, so Ralf's claim perhaps not far fetched.

Wit a shot of Conny at the end even. Perfect.

[midgrid]

Here it is driven to the limit -

With DRS and slicks I'm sure a few seconds could be trimmed off, so Ralf's claim perhaps not far fetched.

On the other hand, those track limits at Turn One...

[r4mses]

Interestingly Ralf said in the interview that they had his old seat and pedal setting so it fit him very well. He also said he hadn't driven a racing car since 2012. So 10 years and you are full blast in an F1 car 

 

Motorsport-Total.com (German website) got a few more quotes of Ralf. [It felt] "like it was the day before yesterday" [since he last sat in the car].

 

In addition to his seat, pedals and settings, which you already mentioned, he says "funnily enough, it's even the race suits from back then". "Back then it wasn't as complicated as today, but I still knew all the switches and stuff". Regarding the slicks he said "the car had insane levels of grip, it was unbelievable, unimaginable".

 

And of course something along the lines how great it was to be back in this car.

Edited by r4mses, 13 July 2022 - 22:49.

[Ruusperi]

Is there a 4K version available? Can't believe it's 2022 and the best quality is 360p.