189 replies to this topic

[IrvTheSwerve]

Golden area in talent possibley but not in tech and sound, these new F1 cars are a mess design wise with the bouncing and stupid problems, and a golf gti sounds louder on track than a bloody F1 car, that is bad.

I agree on the sound but tech-wise the 2003 car is a dinosaur compared to what we have now (not saying I like that fact particularly). In 2003 we essentially had an inefficient N/A lump in the back, with pretty limited aero. I still prefer that era, mind.

[Henri Greuter]

I agree on the sound but tech-wise the 2003 car is a dinosaur compared to what we have now (not saying I like that fact particularly). In 2003 we essentially had an inefficient N/A lump in the back, with pretty limited aero. I still prefer that era, mind.

 

I always find it amusing to read people remembering the 2000-2005 V10 Era so fondly.  

Because I also read people loathing that very same era because of the what was seen as utter domination by Ferrari and MS.  

 

 

 

Makes me wonder how many people liked that era because of liking both as well as how many loath that perios because of both   

[IrvTheSwerve]

I always find it amusing to read people remembering the 2000-2005 V10 Era so fondly.  

Because I also read people loathing that very same era because of the what was seen as utter domination by Ferrari and MS.  

 

 

 

Makes me wonder how many people liked that era because of liking both as well as how many loath that perios because of both   

Glad it amuses you.

 

The races I used to attend every year around then gives me great memories and certainly far more than attending races now.

 

I was thinking more from a car perspective rather than the actual racing.

 

Oh, and utter domination? Lewis Hamilton and Merc ring any bells? Lol.

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 22 July 2022 - 07:01.

[Henri Greuter]

Glad it amuses you.

 

The races I used to attend every year around then gives me great memories and certainly far more than attending races now.

 

I was thinking more from a car perspective rather than the actual racing.

 

Oh, and utter domination? Lewis Hamilton and Merc ring any bells? Lol.

 

 

For the record, I find it most amusing to see certain people loathe the MS domination of 2000-2005 while at the same time they are nowhere near as vocal about the Mercedes domination of 2014-2021. 

But I think that is most of all because of more people being negative toward both Ferrari and/or MS.

 

And I admit, after 15 years of either Williams or McLaren winning all the titles save 3 between 1984-1998, I was OK with Ferrari domination for a while. The more while I had a softspot for the team, though I felt some hesitance because of MS.

And Ferrari was nowhere near as dominant in their 5 years as Mercedes was in any possible 5 year period within the 8 past years.

 

Domination is almost always accepted and preferred by the majority of fans as long as it happens by the right team and driver and condemned when done by the wrong counterparts.

 

But in general and as a whole,

Back between 2000-2005  the Ferrari domination wasn't good for F1, as was the Mercedes domination of the past 8 years

[PayasYouRace]

Let’s not forget that 2003 was a competitive high point, sandwiched between the two worst Schumacher domination years. The 2003 season was a genuine three way battle for the championship between three different teams, and eight drivers won races that year. I think it stands up as one of the best F1 seasons outright.

[Henri Greuter]

And in addition to that, or maybe preceeding it:  2000 is rated by many anti MS and/or anti Ferrari people as first of the bad 5 years of domination by the disliked.

But 2000 was also a cracker of a season that went a long way before it was decided.

Maybe, like 2003 it ended all wrong for those people but these two seasons were actually much better that the majority of the 2014-2021 era.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 22 July 2022 - 08:44.

[SenorSjon]

We're not talking about changing a brand of tyre, but a tyre specification. Not just construction and compound which could theoretically have been changed in 2003 to match the current ones, but more fundamental aspects: dimensions and number of grooves. If you change your car to run on tyres that are wider and with a larger diameter, that would be considered a modification, a deviation from the factory spec.

 

Hence why it's not all that meaningful when you compare a 2003 car that has been modified to a 2022 car.

 

Iirc, the tires didn't change size between 2003 and 2016 when the wider tires were introduced? The 2016 tires are direct bolt on iirc.

 

I agree on the sound but tech-wise the 2003 car is a dinosaur compared to what we have now (not saying I like that fact particularly). In 2003 we essentially had an inefficient N/A lump in the back, with pretty limited aero. I still prefer that era, mind.

 

And yet that dinosaur only needs current day tires (with 20 years development) to outperform on of the current longboats.

 

I always find it amusing to read people remembering the 2000-2005 V10 Era so fondly.  

Because I also read people loathing that very same era because of the what was seen as utter domination by Ferrari and MS.  

 

 

 

Makes me wonder how many people liked that era because of liking both as well as how many loath that perios because of both   

 

If a Brit was winning everything in those days, there wouldn't be so much complaining

2000 was a thriller between two teams and two drivers

2001 faded when Hakinnen lost it

2002 dominant

2003 tense

2004 dominant

 

Compare that to 

2014 dominance

2015 dominance

2016 dominance

2017 dominance

2018 dominance

2019 dominance

2020 dominance

 

The WCC was won 8 years in a row which is an outright record. Look at the amount of records they have achieved from '14-'21: https://en.wikipedia...tructor_records and it is borderline ridiculous.

[CoolBreeze]

Not sure why people keep referring to 2000 - 2005 to MS/Ferrari domination, when in reality, it was only 2001, 2002, and 2004 Ferrari/MS dominated. 

[Henri Greuter]

Not sure why people keep referring to 2000 - 2005 to MS/Ferrari domination, when in reality, it was only 2001, 2002, and 2004 Ferrari/MS dominated. 

 

 

I'm surprised we have not seen Hamilton and/or Mercedes fans yet, calling out that 2014-2020 was no 7 years of total domination at all because of the first halves of 2017 and 2018 before the collapses of Vettel&Ferrari.

[Risil]

Don't jinx it Henri!

[Henri Greuter]

 

If a Brit was winning everything in those days, there wouldn't be so much complaining

2000 was a thriller between two teams and two drivers

2001 faded when Hakinnen lost it

2002 dominant

2003 tense

2004 dominant

 

Compare that to 

2014 dominance

2015 dominance

2016 dominance

2017 dominance

2018 dominance

2019 dominance

2020 dominance

 

The WCC was won 8 years in a row which is an outright record. Look at the amount of records they have achieved from '14-'21: https://en.wikipedia...tructor_records and it is borderline ridiculous.

 

 

 tbh, I don't think that it was a matter of nationality as strong as you suggest. Had another, more popular, and less controversial driver than MS been driving for Ferrari and had he done all the winning, I think the negative feelings about those years would ahve been much less.

Imagine, just the thought of Jacques Villeneuve doing what MS dit in those years, or JPM. I have the feeling that the 2000-2004 era would be looked back upon by many fans way more fondly, just because of MS not doing it alone and a way more popular driver instead. 

Edited by Henri Greuter, 22 July 2022 - 10:42.

[Henri Greuter]

Don't jinx it Henri!

 

You have the power to remove my post if you think it may cause mayhem.

I've seen that happen before....

[CoolBreeze]

I personally think the sound itself made the glorious cars looks/feels faster in any way. The cars are so nimble, small and quick. I'm pretty sure what Ralf is saying is accurate, especially over a race distance. 

[Squeed]

From the photos, Ralf's face alone looks 10kg heavier than it was in 2002, I'd say his lap times would be hindered by a considerable amount of bio-ballast. 

[as65p]

From the photos, Ralf's face alone looks 10kg heavier than it was in 2002, I'd say his lap times would be hindered by a considerable amount of bio-ballast. 

Looks lean enough to me for his age, sure it could be 10 to 15 kgs more than during his active time, but that's not really much to add in 20 years out of service.

[Squeed]

Looks lean enough to me for his age, sure it could be 10 to 15 kgs more than during his active time, but that's not really much to add in 20 years out of service.

For sure, drivers had to starve themselves back in his day. 

[ForzaFormula]

I always find it amusing to read people remembering the 2000-2005 V10 Era so fondly.  

Because I also read people loathing that very same era because of the what was seen as utter domination by Ferrari and MS.  

 

 

 

Makes me wonder how many people liked that era because of liking both as well as how many loath that perios because of both   

 I was not comparing directly to that area, as it was also a bad one, but generally speaking this years reg's, not directly compared to any year.

[ForzaFormula]

Iirc, the tires didn't change size between 2003 and 2016 when the wider tires were introduced? The 2016 tires are direct bolt on iirc.

 

 

And yet that dinosaur only needs current day tires (with 20 years development) to outperform on of the current longboats.

 

 

If a Brit was winning everything in those days, there wouldn't be so much complaining

2000 was a thriller between two teams and two drivers

2001 faded when Hakinnen lost it

2002 dominant

2003 tense

2004 dominant

 

This is quite a radical statement and going nationalizing, does not matter the nationalility.

 

[917k]

I watched every race through this era….the cars sounded wonderful, looked unwieldy and the racing was mostly dire…and F1 fans pined for the good old days of the 90s lol…and the media hammered F1 relentlessly as hopelessly boring.

 

At the time of the introduction, grooved tires and narrow cars were said by media and F1 drivers alike to be the beginning of the end of true F1 racing.

Edited by 917k, 22 July 2022 - 20:49.

[man]

It seems as though people have always shown discontent with the present and referred to the 'glorious' past as some thing that should be replicated to some degree.

1989 is interesting however. Back then, 1988 wasn't seen as memorable of a season that is now often made out to be i.e. 'clash of the titans' etc. When 1989 came around, I think there was a real, general consensus (as can be) that F1 was in as good a shape as it had been in many, many years for obvious reasons. The noise of n/a cars, end of fuel economy runs, midfield teams able to mix it with the top guns etc. I don't think that universal feel good factor has been in F1 since 1989. I remember being present at races during the 1996 - 2003 era and being bored stiff by the cars, races, dull drivers and many, many people felt the same regardless of favourite team/driver combos. I look at a 2003 Williams-BMW and still find it drab and ugly.

[Boing Ball]

I watched every race through this era….the cars sounded wonderful, looked unwieldy and the racing was mostly dire…and F1 fans pined for the good old days of the 90s lol…and the media hammered F1 relentlessly as hopelessly boring.

 

At the time of the introduction, grooved tires and narrow cars were said by media and F1 drivers alike to be the beginning of the end of true F1 racing.

This. Now this era is looked back as the golden years even though the viewership was in decline and people where still complaining about the 1998 rule changes that failed to improve racing and made the cars look ugly (i.e. different than the golden era of early 90s, when people where nostalgic about the golden era of 1970s F1).

[Cornholio]

Not sure why people keep referring to 2000 - 2005 to MS/Ferrari domination, when in reality, it was only 2001, 2002, and 2004 Ferrari/MS dominated. 

 

Even in 2001, the individual races were often a real contest, what made Schumacher and Ferrari look dominant in the final standings was that McLaren and Williams seemed to take turns being the quickest and/or Ferrari's closest challenger, whereas Ferrari were basically there or thereabouts throughout the entire season, had better reliability and fewer operational mistakes. And even within the individual teams, DC/Mika and Ralf/JPM would often take turns being the lead driver in their team, Ferrari obviously never had that situation.

 

In fairness when contrasting to the Mercedes run of dominance, I'd actually pick out 2017 and 2018 and put them in a similar category to 2001, in that Hamilton/Merc were the best over the season, but not crushingly dominant, just the best. Neither of those seasons were a foregone conclusion until deep into the second half of the season, and at least in '14 and '16 you had the inter-team drivers battle, which was never once a thing in the Schumacher/Ferrari years.

[PayasYouRace]

Even in 2001, the individual races were often a real contest, what made Schumacher and Ferrari look dominant in the final standings was that McLaren and Williams seemed to take turns being the quickest and/or Ferrari's closest challenger, whereas Ferrari were basically there or thereabouts throughout the entire season, had better reliability and fewer operational mistakes. And even within the individual teams, DC/Mika and Ralf/JPM would often take turns being the lead driver in their team, Ferrari obviously never had that situation.

 

Yeah the wins from that year really drive that home. Michael had 9. The others had 8 all together. 4 each for McLaren and Williams. 2 each for Mika and David. 3 and 1 for Ralf and JPM.

[Ferrim]

If you put together the best results from the individual McLaren and Williams drivers in 2001, you beat Schumacher's total of 123. Do that for 2002, and you don't get to 100 points - MS scored 144.

[DanGurneyForPresident]

While avoiding the semantics of whether or not a 2003 car with more modern slicks is "valid", I do find the thought experiment valid, and loved seeing Ralf properly on it (and Alonso in his old Renault a few years ago). 

 

Where would modern F1 be if it had not gone down the hybrid route, but still maintained the advances in safety?  How far would we be from the weight and size of the early '00s cars?  Dallara and iRacing worked together to design a "modern" 3.0 V10 car, exclusively for online racing.  It seems to fall somewhere around the size of a current IndyCar, but lighter and more powerful.  How much could the current cars be scaled back?  I don't miss everything about the V10 era, but miss the "nervousness" of the cars.  They simply looked FAST, agile (and tricky), and that's what F1 should be (for me).

 

[Ben24]

Do Ralf's claims have any more merit after the last weekend? Seems as though the 2003 cars were at the very least close to a second a lap quicker than the 2022 cars at Monza. Michael Schumacher's pole time would've been a mid to lo 1:19 at the very least when adjusted for the fuel he carried in that session. And comparing the race times makes the gap seem even larger between the 2003 and 2022 cars than the weight adjusted quali times.

 

As far as I can tell there are only 3 races so far this season so far where the tracks are completely unchanged since 2003 - Italy, Hungary and Canada. From these 3 races it seems as though the 2022 car was clearly quicker at Hungary, the 2003 car was clearly quicker at Italy and an argument could be made either way for which car was quicker at Canada (wet quali and safety cars during the race makes if hard to compare). Monaco and Austria have only made very slight adjustments to their circuits since 2003 and in both cases the 2022 car has seemed quicker but in both cases the changes have been to shorten the overall track length improve the ultimate lap time.

 

At this stage I'd probably lean towards saying that the 2022 cars are, on average, capable of producing quicker ultimate lap times than the 2003 cars were capable of. When it comes to producing an average lap time over a whole race distance I think the 2003 cars were clearly quicker though. Since Ralf specifically mentioned the ability of the old cars to produce consistent times lap after lap compared to the current cars I think he has actually been proved to be correct.

[Henri Greuter]

While avoiding the semantics of whether or not a 2003 car with more modern slicks is "valid", I do find the thought experiment valid, and loved seeing Ralf properly on it (and Alonso in his old Renault a few years ago). 

 

Where would modern F1 be if it had not gone down the hybrid route, but still maintained the advances in safety?  How far would we be from the weight and size of the early '00s cars?  Dallara and iRacing worked together to design a "modern" 3.0 V10 car, exclusively for online racing.  It seems to fall somewhere around the size of a current IndyCar, but lighter and more powerful.  How much could the current cars be scaled back?  I don't miss everything about the V10 era, but miss the "nervousness" of the cars.  They simply looked FAST, agile (and tricky), and that's what F1 should be (for me).

 

 

Reduce wheel base massively, reduce downforce levels massively and reduce the power of the cars that enables them to generate so much downforce and: voila!
 

[PayasYouRace]

Do Ralf's claims have any more merit after the last weekend? Seems as though the 2003 cars were at the very least close to a second a lap quicker than the 2022 cars at Monza. Michael Schumacher's pole time would've been a mid to lo 1:19 at the very least when adjusted for the fuel he carried in that session. And comparing the race times makes the gap seem even larger between the 2003 and 2022 cars than the weight adjusted quali times.

 

As far as I can tell there are only 3 races so far this season so far where the tracks are completely unchanged since 2003 - Italy, Hungary and Canada. From these 3 races it seems as though the 2022 car was clearly quicker at Hungary, the 2003 car was clearly quicker at Italy and an argument could be made either way for which car was quicker at Canada (wet quali and safety cars during the race makes if hard to compare). Monaco and Austria have only made very slight adjustments to their circuits since 2003 and in both cases the 2022 car has seemed quicker but in both cases the changes have been to shorten the overall track length improve the ultimate lap time.

 

At this stage I'd probably lean towards saying that the 2022 cars are, on average, capable of producing quicker ultimate lap times than the 2003 cars were capable of. When it comes to producing an average lap time over a whole race distance I think the 2003 cars were clearly quicker though. Since Ralf specifically mentioned the ability of the old cars to produce consistent times lap after lap compared to the current cars I think he has actually been proved to be correct.

Monza and the Hungaroring are at opposite ends of the average speed spectrum. In Hungary, a car with bigger tyres and greater underbody downforce is going to be best. The 2022 cars, despite being heavy, have so much grip that they can go very quickly around medium to high speed corners such as you find in Budapest.

 

Monza favours top speed above all, and the 2003 cars with their smaller tyres, narrower bodies and flat floors produced a lot less aerodynamic drag. They were brilliant in straight lines.

 

Im sure the 2022 cars would be a lot more consistent over a race distance if they could refuel, running closer to their optimum weight for shorts sprints only. They also ran tyres produced in competition which deliver a more consistent life than what Pirelli have been briefed to supply.

 

A1 Ring/Red Bull Ring hasn’t been changed since 2003, apart from the application of track limits rules meaning the 2003 cars were a bit faster than they should be because they went wide at T1.

[SenorSjon]

Iirc
Hungary: had a large run off added to the fast kink left, so you could dare more without risk.
Canada: wasn't the wall of champions moved backward a bit? And the runoff in that chicane is full tarmac, so reduced risk of binning it into the gravel?

[Marklar]

The tires would be key. 20 years of tire development plus slicks might make even a Pirelli better than a tire war Michelin.

HHF (think it was him) said after a demo run once that the Pirellis are dream compared to the tyres of his time, so you are probably right here

Edited by Marklar, 18 September 2022 - 12:18.

[Atreiu]

I don't have much to add except 89, 90 and 91 were the seasons F1 had a near perfect belence between speed and cars being able to race each other and adopt different pit/tyre strategues.

[Ben24]

Im sure the 2022 cars would be a lot more consistent over a race distance if they could refuel, running closer to their optimum weight for shorts sprints only. They also ran tyres produced in competition which deliver a more consistent life than what Pirelli have been briefed to supply.

 

A1 Ring/Red Bull Ring hasn’t been changed since 2003, apart from the application of track limits rules meaning the 2003 cars were a bit faster than they should be because they went wide at T1.

Didn't you keep repeating that there was no reason to even consider what a 2003 car could do if they were allowed to run on slicks as that would be an illegal configuration for the car? Can't turn around now and say that the 2022 cars would be quicker over a race distance with different tyres or lower fuel loads than they actually can run. But aside from that, I meant that the 2022 cars look much quicker over a single qualifying lap or even going for a fastest lap in the race because they can essentially use up to double the ERS deployment compared to what they can consistently use lap after lap. So even with refuelling and better tyre life there would be a much bigger drop off from quali pace to race pace for 2022 cars compared to 2003 cars.

 

As I said before, there have been other changes to the A1 Ring. The track has been resurfaced some corners were reprofiled. The track is now officially 80m shorter than it was in 2003 so it's clearly not exactly the same. It's honestly hard to compare the times from any single track as things will have changed at every single one of them over a 20 year period.

[PayasYouRace]

Didn't you keep repeating that there was no reason to even consider what a 2003 car could do if they were allowed to run on slicks as that would be an illegal configuration for the car? Can't turn around now and say that the 2022 cars would be quicker over a race distance with different tyres or lower fuel loads than they actually can run. But aside from that, I meant that the 2022 cars look much quicker over a single qualifying lap or even going for a fastest lap in the race because they can essentially use up to double the ERS deployment compared to what they can consistently use lap after lap. So even with refuelling and better tyre life there would be a much bigger drop off from quali pace to race pace for 2022 cars compared to 2003 cars.

 

As I said before, there have been other changes to the A1 Ring. The track has been resurfaced some corners were reprofiled. The track is now officially 80m shorter than it was in 2003 so it's clearly not exactly the same. It's honestly hard to compare the times from any single track as things will have changed at every single one of them over a 20 year period.

 

No I said a car running on the wrong tyres is a meaningless comparison. But it's important to consider factors that affect the pace of a particular car.

[Ben24]

No I said a car running on the wrong tyres is a meaningless comparison. But it's important to consider factors that affect the pace of a particular car.

But you just used the tyres to explain why the 2022 cars had a slower race pace so why is it unreasonable to say the 2003 cars would be quicker in quali on the current Pirellis? I'm also not sure why you would allow refuelling on the current cars when it is against the current rules and they couldn't even refuel during a race without a modification to the car (at least not in a reasonable amount of time).

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the 2003 cars would beat the 2022 cars over a race distance at every single track on the calendar if no changes at all were made to either. Over 1 lap I agree that the 2022 cars are quicker at most races but I'm not sure why you would consider 1 lap pace for this comparison. Ralf clearly stated that he was comparing the pace over multiple laps and at the end of the day that's all that matters for a grand prix (why not break it down to sector times or simply fastest top speed if we're going to compare something shorter than a Grand Prix distance). Even if we allowed refuelling for 2022 cars (which imo is more unfair than allowing 2003 cars to use slicks), I still think that it looks like the 2003 cars would complete most races quicker than the 2022 cars from what we've seen so far. So I'm really struggling to understand your argument here

Edited by Ben24, 20 September 2022 - 21:31.

[Squeed]

If the politics of environmentalism keeps pushing on the sport , it could cause a breakup of the series. When someone from the green side insists on all electric and 2 sets of tires for a weekend , then maybe Red Bull , Ferrari and their sister teams will break away and start a new series. They could take the good parts of today's cars with the good of the 2005 era and make a new series. V-10's , no heavy hybrid stuff, shorten the cars by a meter , keep the tunnel floors and halo.

 

Those aren’t environmentalists pushing, those are the CEOs and CFOs of the most important performance car manufacturers in the world.  

They understand where the car business will be in 10 years. 

Edited by Squeed, 21 September 2022 - 01:23.

[Dolph]

So in conclusion

2003 Williams faster than current F1 cars when running on comparable tyres?

Isnt this what Ralf claimed. Whats all the hubub about!? Semantics?

[KPower]

 

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the 2003 cars would beat the 2022 cars over a race distance at every single track on the calendar if no changes at all were made to either.

 

Not on one tank of fuel. 

[juicy sushi]

So in conclusion

2003 Williams faster than current F1 cars when running on comparable tyres?

Isnt this what Ralf claimed. Whats all the hubub about!? Semantics?

I think some people say yes, some people say no, some people say it doesn't matter, and we're gong to have to have a thread about it because the only reason any of us came here was for a good argument with no possibility of a conclusion.

[Risil]

I think some people say yes, some people say no, some people say it doesn't matter, and we're gong to have to have a thread about it because the only reason any of us came here was for a good argument with no possibility of a conclusion.

 

Let's just be grateful it was "only" Ralf Schumacher who made the claim so the thread was worth a relatively compact 4 pages.

[juicy sushi]

Let's just be grateful it was "only" Ralf Schumacher who made the claim so the thread was worth a relatively compact 4 pages.

Can you imagine if Fernando had cut loose in a 2003 Renault and then made the same statements?  Or if Lewis drove Kimi Raikkonen's old car?  A true thread for the ages.