94 replies to this topic

[Collombin]

With the conclusion last weekend of the 2021/22 Cut and Shut (CAS) championship and the crowning of Max Verstappen as the 31st driver to win the coveted award, let's take a moment to reflect on the champions of days gone by.

What is the CAS? It's simply the existing WDC with the seasons running mid-season to mid-season.

How is the midway point determined? For 1967-80 it just follows the same splits applied at the time. For all other seasons I split the WDC season in half, and for WDC seasons that had an odd number of races I made the middle race a CAS season finale.

Dropped scores? I tried to follow the rules in place at the time, counting a similar number of races. I won't list the exact numbers counting in each season as it doesn't affect the championships very much, but will do so for any specific season anyone might ask about. Obviously the split season does sometimes affect which races drivers had to drop points from.

Points system changes? Not much overthinking here, I just took the points as they were applied at the time. So midway through the 1959/60 season for example, the fastest lap point got replaced with a point for 6th.

This is all just bollocks though really isn't it? Yes Beri, indeed it is. It's fluff to an absurd degree. Lots happened in the real races that wouldn't have happened under the CAS championships.

What's more I have yet to double check (or even single check) my calculations, so if anything feels iffy or better still if you come up with a different outcome then let's hear about it.

With that said, here is the roll of honour (subject to corrections) of CAS world champions to date, followed by a list by driver of CAS titles and how it differs from their WDC tally. Apologies in advance to anyone called Rosberg.

1950 (First half only) Farina
50/51 Fangio
51/52 Ascari
52/53 Ascari
53/54 Fangio
54/55 Fangio
55/56 Fangio
56/57 Fangio
57/58 Moss
58/59 Brabham
59/60 Moss
60/61 Brabham
61/62 Hill P
62/63 Clark
63/64 Clark
64/65 Surtees
65/66 Brabham
66/67 Hulme
67/68 Hulme
68/69 Stewart
69/70 Rindt
70/71 Ickx
71/72 Stewart
72/73 Fittipaldi
73/74 Fittipaldi
74/75 Reutemann
75/76 Lauda
76/77 Scheckter
77/78 Lauda
78/79 Reutemann
79/80 Jones
80/81 Reutemann
81/82 Prost
82/83 Tambay
83/84 Prost
84/85 Prost
85/86 Prost
86/87 Piquet
87/88 Prost
88/89 Prost
89/90 Prost
90/91 Senna
91/92 Mansell
92/93 Senna
93/94 Schumacher
94/95 Hill D
95/96 Hill D
96/97 Villeneuve
97/98 Schumacher
98/99 Hakkinen
99/00 Hakkinen
00/01 Schumacher
01/02 Schumacher
02/03 Schumacher
03/04 Schumacher
04/05 Schumacher
05/06 Alonso
06/07 Alonso
07/08 Raikkonen
08/09 Vettel
09/10 Hamilton
10/11 Vettel
11/12 Vettel
12/13 Vettel
13/14 Vettel
14/15 Hamilton
15/16 Hamilton
16/17 Hamilton
17/18 Hamilton
18/19 Hamilton
19/20 Hamilton
20/21 Hamilton
21/22 Verstappen
22/23 Verstappen

CAS titles won (diff to WDC total)
Hamilton 8 (+1)
Prost 7 (+3)
Schumacher 7
Vettel 5 (+1)
Fangio 5
Reutemann 3 (+3)
Brabham 3
Moss 2 (+2)
Hulme 2 (+1)
Hill D 2 (+1)
Ascari 2
Hakkinen 2
Alonso 2
Fittipaldi 2
Clark 2
Verstappen 2
Lauda 2 (-1)
Senna 2 (-1)
Stewart 2 (-1)
Ickx 1 (+1)
Tambay 1 (+1)
Farina 1
Hill P 1
Surtees 1
Rindt 1
Scheckter 1
Jones 1
Raikkonen 1
Mansell 1
Villeneuve J 1
Piquet 1 (-2)
Hill G 0 (-2)
Rosberg K 0 (-1)
Rosberg N 0 (-1)
Hawthorn 0 (-1)
Hunt 0 (-1)
Andretti 0 (-1)
Button 0 (-1)

The gains and losses don't cancel to zero because at the time of writing there has been one more CAS title than WDC title awarded (ie the 2023 WDC is still ongoing. In theory anyway).

Edited by Collombin, 24 July 2023 - 14:04.

[Michael Ferner]

The Rosbergs say, get lost!

 

Very interesting, and quite a few surprises! Enjoyable. 

[PlatenGlass]

In 90/91 it changed from best 11 to all scores counting. What did you do there? (Edit - I mean Senna was always going to win though.)

Also, while points systems have changed over the years, the change from 09 to 10 was enormous. So that one will be heavily weighted in favour of 2010 results.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 13 July 2022 - 14:16.

[PayasYouRace]

Love it. Tambay easily the biggest surprise for me. Some big names like Andretti and Graham Hill losing out. Nice to see Moss up there, and another for Damon. Shcekcter getting the 76/77 one is cool.

[PlatenGlass]

I was also surprised by Tambay but also Vettel's first win in 08/09.

And Reutemann getting 3 titles!

Edited by PlatenGlass, 13 July 2022 - 14:19.

[Collombin]

The Rosbergs say, get lost!

Graham Hill is furious. He gets a near perfect 42 pts in 62/63, but loses out to Clark who actually did get a perfect score. He then loses 65/66 to Brabham purely on dropped scores, 35(38) versus Jack's 36. A cruel repeat of his real life 1964 loss to Surtees. He also goes close in 64/65 and 67/68. Greatest driver never to win a CAS?

[Collombin]

Also, while points systems have changed over the years, the change from 09 to 10 was enormous. So that one will be heavily weighted in favour of 2010 results.

Less of an issue than I had thought. Hamilton won both individual halfs of the 09/10 season so it was a seamless transition.

[Collombin]

Tambay easily the biggest surprise for me

Very close that one. Tambay had 52 points, Rosberg had a total of 52 as well but had to drop two of them so ended on 50.

[Collombin]

In 90/91 it changed from best 11 to all scores counting. What did you do there? (Edit - I mean Senna was always going to win though.)

That was one of the few seasons where I had to make a real judgement call (like 66/67 and 80/81). For 90/91 I went with best 6 out of 8 from 1990, and all points counting from the first half of 1991. All moot though as you say, it didn't affect the outcome.

[ANF]

08/09 Vettel

[Claymore25]

I am very surprise about Tambay and Reutemann a triple WDC.

 

Very interesting the Vettel 08/09 and Hamilton 09/10.

[MJB5990]

Biggest surprises here for me are;

 

08/09 Vettel beating Massa and Hamilton who both had poor starts to 2009.

09/10 Hamilton proving how much McLaren improved at the end of 2009 and how much Vettel's reliability hurt him in early 2010.

13/14 Vettel's 9 wins in a row giving him an unassailable lead when Lewis and Nico takes points off each other in the W05. 

Edited by MJB5990, 13 July 2022 - 14:28.

[PayasYouRace]

08/09 must be interesting, with the likes of Hamilton and Massa having rubbish starts to 09 and Button having a nightmare of an 08.

[Claymore25]

People only remembers Monza 2008 (rightfully) but he had a very good season in 2008. For example his Monaco race was excellent.

[Collombin]

Subject to my calcs being correct the end of the 1950s is absurd.

The 58/59 table is:-
1 Brabham 27 (but all from the 1959 section)
2 Moss 26.5
3 Hawthorn 26 (all from the 1958 portion, what with the double setback of being both retired and dead in 1959)

59/60 is a Moss v Bruce McLaren tie on points decided on countback

60/61 is a Brabham v Phil Hill tie on points decided on countback. So Phil Hill nearly won a 2nd CAS title.

[MJB5990]

08/09 must be interesting, with the likes of Hamilton and Massa having rubbish starts to 09 and Button having a nightmare of an 08.

 

Quick add up has it something like this. 

 

Vettel - 77 (30 in '08, 47 in '09)

Massa - 71 (49 and 22)

Button - 68 (0 and 68)

Hamilton - 60 (50 and 10)

[Risil]

92/93 sounds like an extremely messy season.

 

Interesting how the Lotus 79 doesn't win a championship by this method, but the Lotus 80 wins half of one.

[PayasYouRace]

92/93 sounds like an extremely messy season.

Interesting how the Lotus 79 doesn't win a championship by this method, but the Lotus 80 wins half of one.

I think all of Carlos’ points in 1979 were in the 79.

[Risil]

I think all of Carlos’ points in 1979 were in the 79.

 

Haha, I'd forgotten about that. I think I assumed green = Lotus 80.

[Afterburner]

Awesome! Now do last 25% and first 75% and vice-versa.

To be serious it's funny how it changes practically nothing from the last 20 years except to take Rosberg and Button's titles away. Shows just how good Vettel was in the STR during the second half of '08...

[JRodrigues]

Raikkonen might have had a good chance for 12/13

 

HUN
2 BEL
3 ITA
5 SIN
6 JPN
6 KOR
5 IND
7 ABU
1 USA
6 BRA
10 AUS
1 MAL
7 CHN
2 BHR
2 ESP
2 MON
10 CAN
9 GBR
5 GER
2 HUN
2

[Risil]

Awesome! Now do last 25% and first 75% and vice-versa.

To be serious it's funny how it changes practically nothing from the last 20 years except to take Rosberg and Button's titles away. Shows just how good Vettel was in the STR during the second half of '08...

 

And how good the engines that Ferrari shipped to Faenza were!

[milestone 11]

Thanks Collombin, thoroughly enjoyed looking through some of the years. Some big surprises, but also disappointments. An eye opener. I wish that I had the time and commitment to do the same exercise with today's points system.

[TheFish]

Surprises me that Alonso still only has 2 when he's mathematically something daft like 10 points from being a 5 time WDC.

[Collombin]

Surprises me that Alonso still only has 2 when he's mathematically something daft like 10 points from being a 5 time WDC.

He was very close in 2011/12 iirc, might be worth a double check.

[TheFish]

He was very close in 2011/12 iirc, might be worth a double check.

TBF Vettel was completely dominant in 2011 and Alonso had a rubbish 2009 stopping him from being in contention for the 09/10 one.

[Collombin]

He ran Schumi close in 04/05 too, 108 to 103 I think.

[milestone 11]

A similar exercise, and I appreciate entirely off topic, the TT lap record, Ramsey hairpin-Ramsey hairpin is some 6 seconds faster than Grandstand-Grandstand. Same rider though, Peter Hickman.

Edited by milestone 11, 13 July 2022 - 15:11.

[Ivanhoe]

Great work Collombin! Good to see Moss and Ickx as CAS champions 

[Collombin]

Great work Collombin! Good to see Moss and Ickx as CAS champions

Thank you. Yes I liked that part of the outcome very much.

[ANF]

People only remembers Monza 2008 (rightfully) but he had a very good season in 2008. For example his Monaco race was excellent.

And I had forgotten how good Vettel and Red Bull were in 2009.

[Sterzo]

Great stuff, Collombin. Totally bonkers, but I like it. Next task is to rewrite all those season summaries in the motoring magazines.

[Risil]

Great stuff, Collombin. Totally bonkers, but I like it. Next task is to rewrite all those season summaries in the motoring magazines.

 

Motor Sport would need to shift their colour photo cover to the July edition. Scandal!

[Rediscoveryx]

A similar exercise, and I appreciate entirely off topic, the TT lap record, Ramsey hairpin-Ramsey hairpin is some 6 seconds faster than Grandstand-Grandstand. Same rider though, Peter Hickman.

Really? That sounds borderline insane…

[Alan Lewis]

Does the inaugural season have any 1949 events (since none were Championship races) or is it just the first half of 1950?

I suppose Switzerland, France, Italy would fit the cut-off.

[milestone 11]

Really? That sounds borderline insane…

In real terms, there is only 1 flying lap in a 6 lap TT, the last one, yes, the first as well but that's a standing start. Point X to point X, in this case Ramsey, happens 3 times in a 6 lap race.

[Ivanhoe]

A similar exercise, and I appreciate entirely off topic, the TT lap record, Ramsey hairpin-Ramsey hairpin is some 6 seconds faster than Grandstand-Grandstand. Same rider though, Peter Hickman.

Both in the same lap? Any video’s online of this(those) lap(s)?

[milestone 11]

Both in the same lap? Any video’s online of this(those) lap(s)?

There is a video of Peter Hickman's official lap record in my opening post of this years TT thread, I can't link that because I'm on my phone, I'll link it later if you can't find it. A shame, because the camera is a bit splattered. There's reference to the Ramsey-Ramsey lap in the database but there is no video just showing that to my knowledge because it's unofficial.

[Anderis]

08/09 Vettel

Crazy how he managed to "win" this by driving in what was basically a B team in 2008.

 

 

09/10 Hamilton

Without finishing inside top3 overall in any of those seasons (and, in fact, despite finishing behind Vettel and Webber in both!).

 

These 2 I find the most interesting out of the modern ones.
 

This gave me an idea that maybe the real F1 would be more interesting if we had half championship with one year's cars and another half with the following year's cars.

Edited by Anderis, 13 July 2022 - 18:18.

[Ivanhoe]

There is a video of Peter Hickman's official lap record in my opening post of this years TT thread, I can't link that because I'm on my phone, I'll link it later if you can't find it. A shame, because the camera is a bit splattered. There's reference to the Ramsey-Ramsey lap in the database but there is no video just showing that to my knowledge because it's unofficial.

I’ll find it m11, thanks  

[Collombin]

Does the inaugural season have any 1949 events (since none were Championship races) or is it just the first half of 1950?

I suppose Switzerland, France, Italy would fit the cut-off.

I've gone back and forth on this and can't decide what to do - our first CAS controversy.

If the 1949 Swiss GP is included, then Ascari is champ. If not, then it's Farina.

Leif Snellman's website gives 5 Grande Epreuve status events in 1949, of which the Swiss race was 3rd. Following my own rules the middle race would not be included in the next season so the Swiss race is ignored. However, should a theoretical 1949 WDC have included Indy then the Swiss race becomes event 4 of 6 and so is included in the 1949/50 CAS season.

Thoughts? I've deleted my earlier posts about the Czech race as they aren't relevant anymore.

Maybe I should just have started with the 1950/51 season.........

Edited by Collombin, 13 July 2022 - 19:45.

[Ivanhoe]

Haha, just make a choice, it’s your championship!

[PayasYouRace]

I'd say just count the first half of 1950 as a championship season. There simply wasn't a championship being held in 1949. So half of 0 is 0.

 

Alternatively, take the results of the 2nd half of the 1939 European Championship, but the placing point system used in that championship causes problems of its own.

[Collombin]

I'd say just count the first half of 1950 as a championship season

Yes, good shout, I will go with that, it's just too theoretical otherwise. All the other rules I established in advance so that I couldn't let bias creep in, but much as I would like Ascari to have another CAS (in recognition of his great 1949 season as much as anything) I will keep it with Farina based on his first 4 races of 1950. Job done.

Edited by Collombin, 13 July 2022 - 19:53.

[Sparky68]

Very interesting, thanks for putting the time in to work all that out.

[Collombin]

Very interesting, thanks for putting the time in to work all that out.

Cheers, some years took hardly any time at all though. And I admit I did consider packing it in after the first 8 champs were the same as the WDC ones, it only got interesting after that.

Edited by Collombin, 13 July 2022 - 20:19.

[Rediscoveryx]

In real terms, there is only 1 flying lap in a 6 lap TT, the last one, yes, the first as well but that's a standing start. Point X to point X, in this case Ramsey, happens 3 times in a 6 lap race.

Right, that majes it more reasonable, but still - six seconds?

Although thinking about it, I’d assume that not all riders are pushing 100% towards the end of the final lap - and of course the lap is very long, so perhaps it’s not as wild as it seems at first sight?

[Gareth]

Awesome stuff Collombin, really fantastic.

 

Hope you enjoyed putting it together as much as everyone here clearly has enjoyed reading it!

[Collombin]

Awesome stuff Collombin, really fantastic.

Hope you enjoyed putting it together as much as everyone here clearly has enjoyed reading it!

Thank you, yes it was very enjoyable in the main (the points tables in Mike Lang's Grand Prix books were in a great format for this sort of exercise), although the more recent years were a bit of an online slog (made easier by not having to worry about dropped scores though).

I'm glad there were enough surprise results to make it worthwhile.

[Heyli]

Topic of the season! Great job.