88 replies to this topic

[jjcale]

Does that make it alright?  Should a professional commentator and journalist use insulting terms about someone in the sport? 

 

No ... but we should keep a sense of proportion.

[JG]

What a boring world it is nowadays, everyone is extremely easily offended and has zero humor. Young people in particular. Relax a bit.

Edited by JG, 14 July 2022 - 08:31.

[William Hunt]

Here. https://m.youtube.co...h?v=33Dn1cxH1dM
....

 

I've heard it now and what he said was clearly meant to insult. I'll translate for non French speakers.

 

The lead commentator Gaeton Vigneron, who would never insult drivers, replied (in French off course)'Now you're going way strong there, that's way too strong' which probably translates better as 'you're going way too far'

Then Froissart said: 'Mais c'est la vérité' ('But it's the truth'). Vigneron then replied 'But he is doing a beautiful race today, he is 10th.'

 

For sure you can't let Froissart commentate a race again after this and apparently it's not his first time.

 

At the beginning of the clip there was a sentence about Vettel where he was saying 'Aston Martin wants to keep Vettel because he is the only one with technical knowledge who understands the car'. It's in this context that he started about Stroll because he continued 'since Stroll is an autist.' Extremely rude, he used it is an insult for sure.

Edited by William Hunt, 14 July 2022 - 08:47.

[Raest]

Being old isn't an excuse for being racist (Piquet Snr) or a dick. Calling someone stupid on national TV was a sack-able offense as far as I can remember. Stop excusing these types of behaviour. 

[10kDA]

I’ve grown up around ASD through my brother, and worked as an SEN teacher for a long time, still work with autistic students today. I think we’re all on the spectrum somewhere, and you get a diagnosis of autism if those traits that everyone has are extreme enough to stop you living a normal life - or make your life difficult. It’s not one thing, it’s not a specific neurological condition. And over the years watching Motorsport, I’ve suspected quite a lot of drivers would probably get a diagnosis. Thing is, I suppose I’ve mainly kept that to myself and not used it in a derogatory way….this guy was using the term as an insult which somehow turns it into something quite shocking in this day and age. The stigma/negativity about having autism is nothing like it was in the 80s when my brother grew up, let’s keep it that way.

In Bold above - that is not true. Many people, perhaps most, exhibit traits and characteristics associated with autism incl. Asperger's syndrome some or even all of the time but that is not a true indicator of the presence of the condition. That's like saying the guy who drinks a beer or a martini every night after work is an alcoholic. Or like saying an alcoholic is a narcissist, which may seem like it but that's because alcoholics often act like narcissists.

 

But the "clinical diagnosis" does not seem to be good for much beyond satisfying the clinicians' need for validation - they did their job, and get a Gold Star. LOL meanwhile it's up to me and many others to apply workarounds and self-devised strategies to navigate the World. Frinstance, I deflect my confusion or pain with humor which is often funny to me only. Others "on the spectrum" express anger, which appears to be tantrums or rage-fests. The threshold for each individual is different. Where that threshold kicks in can often times be managed by the individual. In practical terms the workarounds address the situations where the signals others can interpret and process without much of a problem are often problematic for someone with an autism component at work. Multitasking can suffer, and the "autist"'s technical evaluation, while in many cases comprehensive and finely detailed, may not incorporate some of the most important factors. It's possible Stroll exhibits this. 

 

Has Stroll responded to Froissart's comments? If not, I wonder if it might be because over the course of his life he's become used to such comments and opinions expressed by others about him. And here's where people "On The Spectrum"™ can have an advantage over "normies"™ - The opinions expressed by others do not necessarily require a reflex-like emotionalized response.

[messy]

In Bold above - that is not true. Many people, perhaps most, exhibit traits and characteristics associated with autism incl. Asperger's syndrome some or even all of the time but that is not a true indicator of the presence of the condition. That's like saying the guy who drinks a beer or a martini every night after work is an alcoholic. Or like saying an alcoholic is a narcissist, which may seem like it but that's because alcoholics often act like narcissists.

But the "clinical diagnosis" does not seem to be good for much beyond satisfying the clinicians' need for validation - they did their job, and get a Gold Star. LOL meanwhile it's up to me and many others to apply workarounds and self-devised strategies to navigate the World. Frinstance, I deflect my confusion or pain with humor which is often funny to me only. Others "on the spectrum" express anger, which appears to be tantrums or rage-fests. The threshold for each individual is different. Where that threshold kicks in can often times be managed by the individual. In practical terms the workarounds address the situations where the signals others can interpret and process without much of a problem are often problematic for someone with an autism component at work. Multitasking can suffer, and the "autist"'s technical evaluation, while in many cases comprehensive and finely detailed, may not incorporate some of the most important factors. It's possible Stroll exhibits this.

Has Stroll responded to Froissart's comments? If not, I wonder if it might be because over the course of his life he's become used to such comments and opinions expressed by others about him. And here's where people "On The Spectrum"™ can have an advantage over "normies"™ - The opinions expressed by others do not necessarily require a reflex-like emotionalized response.

That's all I'm saying, though. Isn't it?

Either way, this guy should not be using it as an insult.

Edited by messy, 14 July 2022 - 11:41.

[Steve99]

What a boring world it is nowadays, everyone is extremely easily offended and has zero humor. Young people in particular. Relax a bit.

 

Are you suggesting that using a medical condition to infer that the sufferer is inferior in some way is OK? 

[10kDA]

That's all I'm saying, though. Isn't it?

Either way, this guy should not be using it as an insult.

I didn't get that from your statement that we are "all on the spectrum". To me that statement infers that normal, healthy behaviors that happen to be characteristics of the autism spectrum confirm autism, but maybe just a little. Maybe I misunderstood. But it seemed to me like the often-heard  statement "Aren't we all just a little bit crazy?" The correct answer is No.

[William Hunt]

We are not 'all in the spectrum' at all. If you know anything about autism then you know this is a false statement. 

[PlatenGlass]

We are not 'all in the spectrum' at all. If you know anything about autism then you know this is a false statement. 

 

I don't think it's actually clear cut and it's more of an open question whether autism is a definite thing that you either have or don't have. It's not like Down's syndrome which is a specific chromosomal condition that you clearly either have or don't have. You get an autism diagnosis because you fall over a line in terms of number of traits you have. Not everyone has high blood pressure but everyone has a blood pressure, and you could argue that it's arbitrary exactly where to draw the line of where it becomes a condition. Until someone finds something more specific - e.g. something that all autistic people have and all non-autistic people don't have - the "We're all on the spectrum" thing is not disproven.

[DeKnyff]

What a boring world it is nowadays, everyone is extremely easily offended and has zero humor. Young people in particular. Relax a bit.

 

Just like you are offended by people getting offended. No different.

[jAnO76]

Fun fact: as an autistic I can safely say that Stroll would take 0 offense if being called so. I wouldn’t have a clue how offended he would be if he was not, as per I’m autistic! 😀

[jAnO76]

Are you suggesting that using a medical condition to infer that the sufferer is inferior in some way is OK?

Matter of fact: I would take more offense in you calling it a medical condition.. We see and experience the world differently.. wouldn’t want to be “healed”. Think of it as typical and non-typical.

[pacificquay]

Point is its not for a commentator to call Stroll autstic.

 

It's similar to if a commentator had said Stroll was gay - there's nothing wrong with being gay, but it's not right to say someone is if they're not.

[jAnO76]

True, he should have said he acted autistic. But I don’t think the outrage would be less.. 😉

[William Hunt]

Yes the statement 'we are all in the autism spectrum' is untrue. When you do statements like that you need to back it up with scientific evidence, meaning: papers / research that has been double blind peer reviewed. It's not a question of opinion.

 

I've recently started to study again (well just before corona broke out actually) since I wanted a carreer switch (worked in the private business sector, hold a law degree, used to combine my previous job with a music carreer: stopped both to choose a different carreer path now) but I wanted to do something with more added value to society since I am 40+ so I started to study to become a therapist. And my first trainee / stagair job last year was actually at a center for people with autistic spectrum (I will do a 3 month trainee stage at the psychiatry ward of a hospital in October, looking forward to what will be a drastic carreer switch for me).

.
What's certain is that you can't just put people in boxes, everyone is different. But the spectrum does exist and not everyone is in it, there is a list of characteristic / features that can be observed, these include difficulties in social interaction, restricted or repetitive behaviour, black & white thinking and adaptation difficulties to a changing environment. There is often a strong resistance to change.
Now that doesn't determine that someone has autism,it's an indication that they might be.
Several tests exist to check this. These tests are usually done on 3 days: each time around 2 hours + a questionarie with around 200 multiple choice questions. This questionaire is actually quite reliable, it's multiple choice with usually 4 (or sometime 5) different answers.

Some of the things they test that determine when someone has autisme or not includes:

- a test with pictures that the subject has to put in order to complete a story. They usually can't do that. They tend to not lack creativity. A friend of mine who was diagnosed autism told me he was unable to do this. Yet he is a very smart person with a university masters degree in economics.

 

- a test where they show 20 images of faces where people show an emotion. The subject has to tell which emotion is depicted. This is one of the most important tests to determine whether someone is autistic or not. People with autism cannot or have great difficulties to recognise emotions on a face and in this test they tend to fail or confuse emotions.

 

- An important question in the questionaire is about the amount of detail they focus on. There is a multiple choice question about cars / trafic on a highway road. People with ADHD (which is in many ways the exact oposite of auitism, I have ADD myself) tend to answer that they notice all the cars whilst a person with spectrum autism tends to notice the number plates on cars or on a single car.
The way I explain the difference between AD(/H)D and specturm Autism is by giving an example. Two people, one with AD(/H)D and one with autism walk in a forrest. The person with AD/HD will notice all the trees and how they connect with each other: they see how everything is linked and look at the big picture. The person with autism however will focus on one tree and even the details on that specific tree but he won't notice the other trees.

- Another typical traits of ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) for example: a particular sound that they notice much harder, as if the volume is harder. For example the sound of a bus passing by. They also have difficulties with large crowds (not always though, depends where in the spectrum) or with places with lots of background noise. They also have difficulties with emotions (and reading & understanding emotions from others) and difficulties with empathising with other people. These are things that can be tested you know. They also have sensor reactivity, often restricted interests (sometimes very strong interest in just one theme. That's again the oposite of AD/HDers who tend to have a lot of interests in a wide variety of themes). Ritualistic or compulsive or stereotype behaviour is also common.

 

Please don't assume that I'm a specialist in ASD: I certainly am not, just did a trainee period at a center for spectrum autism. And it made me realise that it's pretty complex to determine where in the spectrum someone is. Some people (a smaller segment) with autism can also have serious behaviour problems.
At the institution where I'm currently studying they actually have a one full year specliastion to study just spectrum autism (I know someone who studied that) so you can specialise in it, showing that it's a complex theme.

 

So anyway, I just wanted to show that it is a real thing and it can be determined and measured, just the exact spot in the spectrum is hard, if not impossible, to determine. And like with all methods to determine a condition it's off course controversial. I'm talking then about how it is defined in the DSM-5, which is a diagnostical and statistical manual for mental disorders, a bit considered 'the bible' but off course definitions and methods or even traits or often challenged and with increased scientific knowledge the manual is updated every now and then (DSM-5 is the fifth edition) and then again people will off course challenge the definitions. 

 

But conclusion: the spectrum is a real thing. Although a spectrum is never exact and every model is an abstract representation, it is a way to determine whether someone has traits of a disorder an not.

And for sure not everyone has a form of autism just like not everyone has a form of AD/HD (a condition which I happen to have, it actually also gives advantages). It's a sentence that you keep hearing over time now and then and pretty anoying because it's simply not true.

If it was true then everyone would recognise several of the traits I've mentioned as their behaviour (not able to recognise emotions, focussing on one thing strongly, sensitivities with sound & lightning, black & white thinking (and sometimes extreme opinions that they refuse to change), introvertism, repititve behaviour, resistance to change, stimming, avoiding eye contact, sensory reactivity, repetitive behaviour).

If you don't have several of these traits than you most likely won't be in the spectrum. Clearly not everyone has these traits so that proves the statement that everyone has a form of autism completely false.

 

I actually have a couple of friends who were diagnosed as in the autism spectrum. One works as a ... maths teacher. The other two have strong difficulties with getting a job that fits them (even though one of them has a master in economics and speaks several languages fluently, problem is that he works quite slowly and is sensitive to noise or a busy atmosphere which makes it hard to keep / find a job for him), the other one is very rigid in his beliefs, taste & behaviour with a lack of empathy on others and in particular very strong black & white opinions (that he also somehow needs to express, often insulting people without realising it) and difficulties with social interactions & change (including sticking to the same behaviour patterns).
But they are very nice people and good friends. Friendship is also accepting people's negative sides in a way.

Edited by William Hunt, 14 July 2022 - 17:16.

[messy]

We are not 'all in the spectrum' at all. If you know anything about autism then you know this is a false statement.

I’ve sat in MDT meetings at work where people have been diagnosed (or not) with ASD, more than I can count. It’s literally a question of ticking enough boxes to get a diagnosis. I have taken the AQ50 myself, I have a wife who worked for years in autism diagnosis, I’ve seen the ADOS. I can absolutely, 100% tell you that everybody has traits that would give them a score on that. Everybody. And that’s what I’m saying. I’m not devaluing the diagnosis (that’s how it has to work), I’m not suggesting autism doesn’t exist or isn’t a real condition. I’m suggesting that it shouldn’t be stigmatized.

And yes, everyone’s different. You’ve met one person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism. But the point here, far from all this infuriating “I know more than you” one-upmanship, is that it shouldn’t be stigmatized in the way that seemingly this commentator has done, and used as an insult. Same as if you call someone gay, or use a racial slur. There isn’t anything wrong with being gay, there isn’t anything wrong with being of a certain race, there isn’t anything wrong with being autistic. There is plenty wrong with using it as an insult because then you’re stepping across a line into something that really shouldn’t be happening in this day and age.

[jonpollak]

Had a momentary burst of excitement thinking it might have been "Crofty" caught off mike or something.

If only….
Jp

[milestone 11]

I scored 37 on the AQ50, am I autistic? At 75, do I qualify for an audience with a child psychologist or have I missed the boat

Edited by milestone 11, 14 July 2022 - 21:43.

[Talisker]

Yes this "we're all on the spectrum" stuff is bollocks. Just because it's called a spectrium doesn't mean it starts at zero and includes everyone in it. It's like when people say "We're all a bit depressed sometimes" as if being sad = having depression.

 

I think people say these things because they are fundamentally self-centred and feel excluded when other people receive attention or have accommodations made for them due to a genuine medical condition.

[William Hunt]

Having one or some traits doesn't mean that you are in the spectrum! Much more is needed for that.

PS: we're also straying away quite a bit from the original topic which was a journalist insulting Stroll.

[MrSarcastic]

Blimey you've just described me to a tee. Maybe I should see someone

Me too, haha. Add miserable b'stard and it's 100% me.

[FirstnameLastname]

Does that make it alright? Should a professional commentator and journalist use insulting terms about someone in the sport?

It’s no worse that stuff that other drivers have broadcast over the radio about stroll - is it?

Poor Lance does come in for some flack doesn’t he.

[DeKnyff]

It’s no worse that stuff that other drivers have broadcast over the radio about stroll - is it?

Poor Lance does come in for some flack doesn’t he.

 

What makes that stuff worse than what drivers shout over the radio is, precisely, that it was said by a TV commentator.

[pdac]

Yes this "we're all on the spectrum" stuff is bollocks. Just because it's called a spectrium doesn't mean it starts at zero and includes everyone in it. It's like when people say "We're all a bit depressed sometimes" as if being sad = having depression.

 

I think people say these things because they are fundamentally self-centred and feel excluded when other people receive attention or have accommodations made for them due to a genuine medical condition.

 

This "spectrum" thing seems to be entirely objective - it means whatever anyone wants it to mean.

[Taxi]

Is Stroll a massive talent? No. Does he deserves all the crap people take at him? Also no. 

 

Calling someone "autistic" was a term commonly used here in Portugal to refer to someone who would not want to listen to other peoples opinions. Politics would use it all the time when trying to call they opponets "stuborn". People were not thinking about the health condition at all.  

 

But a few years back Portuguese Autism Association complained about the use of the term on media, school, and parlament. Since then its basicaly banned because people realized it's ofensive. 

 

In general we should respect more those guys. Wether they are Stroll or Verstappen they risk their lives and are just human beings. Do they make mistakes and have flaws? Sure. Do they deserve being insulted? No. He deserved at least an apologie.  

[jonpollak]

I thought the ‘spectrum’ was a wavelength of about 380 to 750 nanometers.

No?
Or has that been co-opted to some cause as well now.
Jp

[Steve99]

Matter of fact: I would take more offense in you calling it a medical condition.. We see and experience the world differently.. wouldn’t want to be “healed”. Think of it as typical and non-typical.

 

Fair comment, I used the wrong wording. Yet this is not about whether autistic people are offended, it's about a commentator using the word as an insult. I'm deaf, and m known to friends as 'Deaf Steve', yet I've also had the fact used to demean me. This is what the commentator is doing here. 

[Burtros]

What a boring world it is nowadays, everyone is extremely easily offended and has zero humor. Young people in particular. Relax a bit.

What’s it got to do with young people??

I’m not young and yet because I do my best to be a kind, decent and respectful person I’m appalled by the way the word was used to insult stroll.

You can’t excuse that from a professional commentator. It’s absolutely disgusting behaviour on every single level.

[FLB]

This is a profile of somebody on the spectrum who has an active role in the sport (IndyCar flagger Aaron Likens) :

 

INDYCAR Flagger Racing To Increase Autism Awareness

Edited by FLB, 15 July 2022 - 12:14.

[absinthedude]

What a boring world it is nowadays, everyone is extremely easily offended and has zero humor. Young people in particular. Relax a bit.

 

So it's OK to refer to someone who is a bit clumsy as "spastic" or "spaz". 

 

These terms, even those which were once or still are used as medical terms, when used as insults and criticisms become very hurtful to people who are actually on the autism spectrum, or who have cerebral palsy (spaz) etc. Shall I call anyone I deem to have insufficient intelligence to be a "mong"? Is that OK, then? 

 

Comparing someone the commentator finds uncommunicative or strange to someone with a recognised diagnosis and doing so for the purpose of an insult is just not on. 

 

BTW I'm almost 50 and wouldn't know avocado toast from oat "milk". I just tend to be kind to people.

[BRG]

Just because it's called a spectrum doesn't mean it starts at zero and includes everyone in it.

I think that is in fact exactly what spectrum means!  Whether that is correct or not is a different matter.

[MikeTekRacing]

I think that is in fact exactly what spectrum means!  Whether that is correct or not is a different matter.

correct.

Maybe interval would have been a better choice

[pdac]

correct.

Maybe interval would have been a better choice

 

Not sure it would. The fact is that people coin terms that are in all essence meaningless in the context in which they are used and this is one example. Spectrum really just means the range of similar things and interval just means the periodicity with a range.

[absinthedude]

I think that is in fact exactly what spectrum means!  Whether that is correct or not is a different matter.

 

 

 

Yes this "we're all on the spectrum" stuff is bollocks. Just because it's called a spectrium doesn't mean it starts at zero and includes everyone in it. It's like when people say "We're all a bit depressed sometimes" as if being sad = having depression.

 

I think people say these things because they are fundamentally self-centred and feel excluded when other people receive attention or have accommodations made for them due to a genuine medical condition.

 

There are posters here who clearly do not know what spectrum means. No, we are not "all on the spectrum" and we are not all "a bit depressed at times". I suggest consulting a dictionary and a cursory glance at any medical page on ASD. 

 

Talisker is absolutely and fundamentally correct. 

 

Let us take the electromagnetic spectrum. The whole thing as generally defined takes in radio waves, microwaves, IR, the visible spectrum, UV, X-rays and gamma rays.

 

But note well....it *contains* the "visible spectrum" which is the portion of the whole EM spectrum which is made up of wavelengths most humans can see. It is perfectly correct to refer to this as the "visible spectrum". 

 

In just this way, there is a vast spectrum of human behaviour. Someone who is diagnosed with ASD will generally exhibit a good number of traits within that all-encompassing spectrum which puts them "on the autism spectrum" though that isn't a phrase you'll hear a medical professional say. They are certainly not all like Rain Man...indeed most can mask their autism and blend in, though that is often exhausting as they're effectively pretending to be someone they are not 24/7. So it is now not advised that people diagnosed or suspected of having ASD are "treated" by encouraging them to be "normal". 

 

It is also likely that any one of us, including those who are neurotypical, will exhibit one or two traits associated with ASD. That doesn't make you or I "a bit autistic". It just means that I have a couple of traits associated with autism, but no way near enough to say I have ASD.  

 

It is an insult to Lance Stroll and to people who are autistic to describe him thus due to him coming across as strange or uncommunicative. 

[Rumblestrip]

There are posters here who clearly do not know what spectrum means. No, we are not "all on the spectrum" and we are not all "a bit depressed at times". I suggest consulting a dictionary and a cursory glance at any medical page on ASD. 

 

Talisker is absolutely and fundamentally correct. 

 

Let us take the electromagnetic spectrum. The whole thing as generally defined takes in radio waves, microwaves, IR, the visible spectrum, UV, X-rays and gamma rays.

 

But note well....it *contains* the "visible spectrum" which is the portion of the whole EM spectrum which is made up of wavelengths most humans can see. It is perfectly correct to refer to this as the "visible spectrum". 

 

In just this way, there is a vast spectrum of human behaviour. Someone who is diagnosed with ASD will generally exhibit a good number of traits within that all-encompassing spectrum which puts them "on the autism spectrum" though that isn't a phrase you'll hear a medical professional say. They are certainly not all like Rain Man...indeed most can mask their autism and blend in, though that is often exhausting as they're effectively pretending to be someone they are not 24/7. So it is now not advised that people diagnosed or suspected of having ASD are "treated" by encouraging them to be "normal". 

 

It is also likely that any one of us, including those who are neurotypical, will exhibit one or two traits associated with ASD. That doesn't make you or I "a bit autistic". It just means that I have a couple of traits associated with autism, but no way near enough to say I have ASD.  

 

It is an insult to Lance Stroll and to people who are autistic to describe him thus due to him coming across as strange or uncommunicative. 

 

Great post 

 

My son was recently diagnosed with ASD and it's good to know there is an awareness of what it actually means.

[BRG]

There are posters here who clearly do not know what spectrum means. 

 

Let us take the electromagnetic spectrum. The whole thing as generally defined takes in radio waves, microwaves, IR, the visible spectrum, UV, X-rays and gamma rays.

 

But note well....it *contains* the "visible spectrum" which is the portion of the whole EM spectrum which is made up of wavelengths most humans can see. It is perfectly correct to refer to this as the "visible spectrum". 

I know exactly what 'spectrum' means.  If people want to mis-use the word, then that is not my problem.  You have yourself explained this.  Talk about the 'autism spectrum' if you must.

[messy]

It’s the difference between “everyone falls somewhere on a neurodiversity spectrum because of some traits they have” and “everybody’s a little bit autistic”, but I really can’t be arsed to get into it because everyone thinks they know best. Sometimes it’s better just to talk about motor racing.

[CoolBreeze]

While i know that there;s many snowflakes out there getting offended over every damn thing, there's still a line you do not cross. I think this comment has definitely crossed the line. 

 

If the comment was something like ..'there's stroll...what an idiot' is much better than calling someone a ******. There's no respect in both ways. The commentator should be fired immediately.