1185 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Please can we discuss the French Grand Prix in here and not Red Bull and Mercedes last year, thanks

[gillesfan76]

A big message, but I understand what you're saying. I saw a lot of small mistakes from Lec with Vettel in 2020, but small improvements in 21. This year it is much better, but still a lot of margin issues in defence, saw at least 3 issues today including his crash.

Still, he is improving and when he will be WDC it will be well deserved.

 

 

I'll defend leclerc a bit, he seems to need to wring the cars neck to keep ahead of max, he has no margin.

 

I disagree. At the time Charles crashed, Max wasn’t even a DRS threat and Charles had a relatively comfortable gap. I also don’t think it’s an issue of car control. I simply believe it’s an issue of concentration. Charles can access peak level of concentration and form for short periods. We see this during qualifying, attacking and defending. But lap after lap, especially once Max was out of DRS threat and Charles had the gap to a comfortable amount, I think he just relaxed a little and wasn’t ready so got caught out.

 

I recall with both Max and Lewis, in some previous seasons when they were comfortably leading but setting fastest laps and their engineers told them to take it easier, they replied that there was actually a bigger risk if they took it too easy not just because tyres and brakes lose temperature but also the concentration goes down.

[shure]

To be fair, this is a learning year for Russell as his first in a top team, and isn't the point of it for him to learn from his vastly experienced and successful teammate so he can go on to lead Mercedes in the future? So obviously his main benchmark will be Hamilton. 

 

And for Hamilton, he's in a dog of a car and his main aim is to try to sneak a win if at all possible. He doesn't care about much else right now, and certainly not the distraction of an internal teammate battle. 

dog of a car seems a little poetic licence for a car that's the clear 3rd best on the grid?

[Gravelngrass]

To be fair, this is a learning year for Russell as his first in a top team, and isn't the point of it for him to learn from his vastly experienced and successful teammate so he can go on to lead Mercedes in the future? So obviously his main benchmark will be Hamilton.

Let’s face it, if you don’t feel the need to or think you can beat your teammate, even if he’s a WDC, you are already lost. None of these guys think in terms of being the model employee, to “learn from a mentor” to one day replace the leaving guy in the corporate hierarchy. All Russel is thinking about now is about pulling a Hamilton on Hamilton and beat him in his first year as teammates. They all need to think they can as they have been trained their wholes lives to believe they are the next great thing. Anything less, especially from the supposed aliens of the next generation, will necessarily disappoint.

Having said that, the way things are going, Russel will probably get a reality shot as the season advances. Let’s see how this affects his psyche.

[jonpollak]

What’s this I hear about a wrong message given to Checo during the VSC restart?

Jp

[MasterOfCoin]

What’s this I hear about a wrong message given to Checo during the VSC restart?

Jp

It's not so much of a wrong message, but a delayed start to the VSC ending....

[jcbc3]

What’s this I hear about a wrong message given to Checo during the VSC restart?

Jp

 

The same message everyone got. It's a nothing burger. Checo was caught napping and that's what cost him.

[ARTGP]

I disagree. At the time Charles crashed, Max wasn’t even a DRS threat and Charles had a relatively comfortable gap. I also don’t think it’s an issue of car control. I simply believe it’s an issue of concentration. Charles can access peak level of concentration and form for short periods. We see this during qualifying, attacking and defending. But lap after lap, especially once Max was out of DRS threat and Charles had the gap to a comfortable amount, I think he just relaxed a little and wasn’t ready so got caught out.

I recall with both Max and Lewis, in some previous seasons when they were comfortably leading but setting fastest laps and their engineers told them to take it easier, they replied that there was actually a bigger risk if they took it too easy not just because tyres and brakes lose temperature but also the concentration goes down.

Charles did say after the race that because the track was so hot, it was hard to be consistent. Charles has a very detailed driving style and when it sticks, he nails it, but it’s a bit like walking a tightrope rope with him. When one foot gets placed incorrectly, there’s no margin. When you look at the throttle traces at some circuits, Charles is practically dancing with the throttle pedal in the middle of corners. His workload is so high to get the lap time and it’s hard to do that lap after lap. Verstappen and Hamilton by comparison are much smoother and make it look easier.

Edited by ARTGP, 25 July 2022 - 14:58.

[cpbell]

Just seen the highlights.  At last, Le Castellet is redeemed by the new regulations - great fights through Signes and into the double right, and even a pass on the inside at the final corner in the manner of Scheckter on Peterson.

[JimmyClark]

dog of a car seems a little poetic licence for a car that's the clear 3rd best on the grid?

Poetic licence yes, but compared to what he's driven for the last eight years, it must feel like it.

[Autodromo]

If George would have hit Perez or ended up in front of him I’m sure it would have been a slam dunk penalty. As Perez was still ahead without damage they just let it go.

Though they claim that penalties are not dependent on outcome.....

[inox]

I hope they force Circuit Paul Ricard into layout changes, like they did with Abu Dhabi. They have the space and really need to fix something.


Preferably just scrap it and keep Spa in its place though.

I don't really get your opinion. The track works quite nicely. Its not too easy to overtake, but there are several overtaking places.

Even the chicane in the Mistral straight has turned out to work well. You can try to pass either in following straight, during Signes corner, during braking to Beausset or in the middle of Beausset. I really like the variety of passing happening there.

Sainz's pass on Perez was a classic one. It was initiated at the start of Mistral 1 and completed at the end of pit straight. The continuous fight lasted almost 5 kilometers. This is rare stuff and enjoyable to watch.

The circuit also contains lots of high speed turns. If you just try to forget the stripes (that seem to be the neverending complaint for some), you actually have a very good racing circuit. It certainly belongs to better half of current circuits in the calendar. It has a unique layout which separates it from typical Tilkedromes. So I would think twice before asking it to be replaced with a track containing continuous string of slow corners.

Is updated Abu Dhabi in your view really better than Ricard?

[SophieB]

I do think a lot of it is how those horrible stripes are as abrasive on the viewer eyeballs as they are on tyres rather than the racing per se. I’ll be glad to see the back of it.

[RekF1]

I do think a lot of it is how those horrible stripes are as abrasive on the viewer eyeballs as they are on tyres rather than the racing per se. I’ll be glad to see the back of it.

I get you, but it's not the stripes fault. If they'd gone for a more Warhol approach it would look fine. Even if the abrasive stripes were coloured like fake grass, sand, or even tarmac, that's cool too. I like the idea of drivers being punished for ****ing up, but this track will never be fun for spectators. Similar to Valencia, it's never had the spark until it's last race.

There wasn't actually much overtaking and the only thing keeping it exciting was the battle upfront, until Charles messed up. I'm happy Lewis did well but nothing really happened in the race.

[Autodromo]

I do think a lot of it is how those horrible stripes are as abrasive on the viewer eyeballs as they are on tyres rather than the racing per se. I’ll be glad to see the back of it.

I agree it is a bit triggering on the eyes.  However, it ranks highly on the list of "tracks I would take my brand new Senna to wring out", however!  I mean, if I had a new Senna.  Charles showed it is not impossible to hit the wall, but it is more difficult to do so than many tracks.  Plus it's in the South of France....

[JeePee]

I get you, but it's not the stripes fault. If they'd gone for a more Warhol approach it would look fine. Even if the abrasive stripes were coloured like fake grass, sand, or even tarmac, that's cool too. I like the idea of drivers being punished for ****ing up, but this track will never be fun for spectators. Similar to Valencia, it's never had the spark until it's last race.

There wasn't actually much overtaking and the only thing keeping it exciting was the battle upfront, until Charles messed up. I'm happy Lewis did well but nothing really happened in the race.

Turn 6 would have been amazing if the exit had a strip off grass.

[MikeTekRacing]

Though they claim that penalties are not dependent on outcome.....

"forcing a driver off track" is not a thing when your options are go off track or turn in and crash

[MikeTekRacing]

Turn 6 would have been amazing if the exit had a strip off grass.

turn 6 in F12022 is very tricky because it's so hard to nail it right (for my level at least).

It's also one of the most important exits since it leads to a super long straight

[GlenWatkins]

Did anyone else notice that some of the drivers were wearing cool suits?  I know other races used them, but I have never seen F1 drivers do so.  I wonder where they put the ancillaries in the car.

 

[noikeee]

Might make them cooler on the inside, but that definitely looks uncool on the outside. Ugly...

[ARTGP]

Did anyone else notice that some of the drivers were wearing cool suits? I know other races used them, but I have never seen F1 drivers do so. I wonder where they put the ancillaries in the car.

The drivers don’t wear them in the car. They wear them on the grid to stay cool before getting in the car.

[A.Fant]

I disagree. At the time Charles crashed, Max wasn’t even a DRS threat and Charles had a relatively comfortable gap. I also don’t think it’s an issue of car control. I simply believe it’s an issue of concentration. Charles can access peak level of concentration and form for short periods. We see this during qualifying, attacking and defending. But lap after lap, especially once Max was out of DRS threat and Charles had the gap to a comfortable amount, I think he just relaxed a little and wasn’t ready so got caught out.

I recall with both Max and Lewis, in some previous seasons when they were comfortably leading but setting fastest laps and their engineers told them to take it easier, they replied that there was actually a bigger risk if they took it too easy not just because tyres and brakes lose temperature but also the concentration goes down.

Not saying it is in any way comparable, but I immediately think of an F3 race I did in rFactor 2 against the AI at Zandvoort where I doing qualifying laps the entire race, realized I was almost 10s ahead of the field as I started the final lap, thought I'd ease off to just bring it home and subsequently went straight into the wall at T3.

[IrvTheSwerve]

The drivers don’t wear them in the car. They wear them on the grid to stay cool before getting in the car.

Indeed, they’ve been used since the early-mid 00’s from memory (think it was DC that started it?)

[SophieB]

I get you, but it's not the stripes fault. If they'd gone for a more Warhol approach it would look fine. Even if the abrasive stripes were coloured like fake grass, sand, or even tarmac, that's cool too. I like the idea of drivers being punished for ****** up, but this track will never be fun for spectators. Similar to Valencia, it's never had the spark until it's last race.

There wasn't actually much overtaking and the only thing keeping it exciting was the battle upfront, until Charles messed up. I'm happy Lewis did well but nothing really happened in the race.

Now depressed at the missed opportunity of creative inspiration of the runoff areas. We could have had more game marinas, illustrations of classic drivers, cityscapes, underwater scenes, anything.

[Michael Ferner]

Charles did say after the race that because the track was so hot, it was hard to be consistent. Charles has a very detailed driving style and when it sticks, he nails it, but it’s a bit like walking a tightrope rope with him. When one foot gets placed incorrectly, there’s no margin. When you look at the throttle traces at some circuits, Charles is practically dancing with the throttle pedal in the middle of corners. His workload is so high to get the lap time and it’s hard to do that lap after lap. Verstappen and Hamilton by comparison are much smoother and make it look easier.

 

The conditions are the same for everybody, only some fall off the ladder regularly, and some don't. This whole tightrope thing reminds me of Senna, racing with no margin. At the time, it was Prost who got the better results by being much smoother and making it look easier. There's a message in there, somewhere, Charles, can you see it?

[Clatter]

Did anyone else notice that some of the drivers were wearing cool suits? I know other races used them, but I have never seen F1 drivers do so. I wonder where they put the ancillaries in the car.

They have been using them for a long time. They use them to chill themselves down before the race, but don't use them in the car.

[noikeee]

I disagree. At the time Charles crashed, Max wasn’t even a DRS threat and Charles had a relatively comfortable gap. I also don’t think it’s an issue of car control. I simply believe it’s an issue of concentration. Charles can access peak level of concentration and form for short periods. We see this during qualifying, attacking and defending. But lap after lap, especially once Max was out of DRS threat and Charles had the gap to a comfortable amount, I think he just relaxed a little and wasn’t ready so got caught out.

I recall with both Max and Lewis, in some previous seasons when they were comfortably leading but setting fastest laps and their engineers told them to take it easier, they replied that there was actually a bigger risk if they took it too easy not just because tyres and brakes lose temperature but also the concentration goes down.

Nah it was critical for him to really push the lap he crashed, because Max had just stopped and could undercut him.

I get what you're saying but this wasn't one of those free to relax moments.

Edited by noikeee, 26 July 2022 - 09:53.

[MJB5990]

Nah it was critical for him to really push the lap he crashed, because Max had just stopped and could undercut him.

I get what you're saying but this wasn't one of those free to relax moments.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Max had already undercut Charles by S2 on his outlap. 

[ANF]

What’s this I hear about a wrong message given to Checo during the VSC restart?

Jp

 

The same message everyone got. It's a nothing burger. Checo was caught napping and that's what cost him.

Yeah, Pérez was caught napping in first gear. I think he laid down some rubber when it went green...

[noikeee]

I'm pretty sure Max had already undercut Charles by S2 on his outlap.

Yeah most likely, but does Charles have this info? The team won't tell him, you can stop pushing now Max is past us.

[MJB5990]

Yeah most likely, but does Charles have this info? The team won't tell him, you can stop pushing now Max is past us.

 

"We are going long, going long. Creating an offset for later in the race."

Something like this (as heard before by other teams) would have sufficed. 

[Roadhouse]

Yeah most likely, but does Charles have this info? The team won't tell him, you can stop pushing now Max is past us.

 

They were checking.

[noikeee]

"We are going long, going long. Creating an offset for later in the race."
Something like this (as heard before by other teams) would have sufficed.

My point is he probably didn't know he could "relax" and the error probably came from pushing too hard rather than the lapses on concentration that can happen when you drop the rhythm.

[Ivanhoe]

Nah it was critical for him to really push the lap he crashed, because Max had just stopped and could undercut him.

I get what you're saying but this wasn't one of those free to relax moments.

If they wanted to prevent the undercut they would have pitted Charles in lap 17 (the lap after Max pitted). Ferrari had already decided to go long on the mediums and create a tyre offset for the 2nd stint. Charles was even told on the radio to preserve his tyres just before he crashed. There was no need for him to push and he should/could have known.

[cpbell]

If they wanted to prevent the undercut they would have pitted Charles in lap 17 (the lap after Max pitted). Ferrari had already decided to go long on the mediums and create a tyre offset for the 2nd stint. Charles was even told on the radio to preserve his tyres just before he crashed. There was no need for him to push and he should/could have known.

In that case, it makes his mistake more inexplicable.

[milestone 11]

Indeed, they’ve been used since the early-mid 00’s from memory (think it was DC that started it?)

Button. Fairly confident that he owned the company when they were first introduced. Maybe he still does.