Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

What was up with that VSC French GP 2022?


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 14:32

That was really weird, it was ENDING for ages.



Advertisement

#2 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,492 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 24 July 2022 - 14:53

And it seemingly didn't start 'till all the front runners had passed the pit entrance?



#3 Red5ive

Red5ive
  • Member

  • 1,227 posts
  • Joined: May 20

Posted 24 July 2022 - 14:55

Giving Russell a chance to get his speed up/slow down strategy behind Perez right....


Edited by Red5ive, 24 July 2022 - 14:56.


#4 FullOppositeLock

FullOppositeLock
  • Member

  • 10,170 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 24 July 2022 - 14:57

I suspect a technical glitch somewhere. Isn’t the ending supposed to last 5 seconds only?

#5 MJB5990

MJB5990
  • Member

  • 2,275 posts
  • Joined: May 14

Posted 24 July 2022 - 14:57

Yeah can't imagine Horner and Marko are happy.

#6 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,046 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 24 July 2022 - 14:59

Yeah can't imagine Horner and Marko are happy.

 

Their beef should be with Checo. 



#7 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:00

I bet they are all looking pretty closely to see if the other guy was speeding, expecting it end and then it not happening.



#8 Wuzak

Wuzak
  • Member

  • 7,527 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:05

That was a long "ending" period. Very odd.

 

Looks like Checo was caught out by that - he got a big gap to Russell on the Mistal straight after the "ending" message was given, and then had to back it up. The race restarted several corners later.



#9 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 43,384 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:06

FIA breaking their own rules again
3pgj4qu.png
On the team radio Perez was asking "WHEN is it ending?", it's certainly one way to mix up things by randomly changing this, it makes it impossible for the drivers to time it right without luck


Edited by Marklar, 24 July 2022 - 15:08.


#10 Clrnc

Clrnc
  • Member

  • 5,060 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:08

That's really weird and Perez got caught out by it

#11 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:08

FIA breaking their own rules again
3pgj4qu.png

How long was it ENDING for?



#12 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,492 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:08

FIA breaking their own rules again
3pgj4qu.png

Say it ain't so.  And I thought they'd become such sticklers for the rules in recent months.



#13 Wuzak

Wuzak
  • Member

  • 7,527 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:12

How long was it ENDING for?

 

I think Perez and Russell were approaching the chicane on the back straight when the message popped up, and it actually ended 2nd or 3rd last corner. That would be 20s+ at racing speed, let alone under VSC speed.



#14 Wuzak

Wuzak
  • Member

  • 7,527 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:13

FIA breaking their own rules again

On the team radio Perez was asking "WHEN is it ending?", it's certainly one way to mix up things by randomly changing this, it makes it impossible for the drivers to time it right without luck

 

I would have thought that once race control hit the VSC ending button that the timing would be automatic, and random.



#15 chrcol

chrcol
  • Member

  • 2,930 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:16

I do think SC is been used when it shouldnt "for the show", so manipulation of VSC "for the show" is possible also, I think what happened, Perez zoomed off by accident, they wanted the close battle with Russel, so they extended the ending and were waiting for an optimal moment for the overtaking move.

 

I know it sounds crazy, but I honestly think they trying to use every incident for spicing up the race now, I also did notice they delayed calling the VSC as well.  I thought it was because of they were considering full SC, but now its been pointed out in this thread they were waiting for leaders to pass the pit entry, that wouldnt surprise me.


Edited by chrcol, 24 July 2022 - 15:18.


#16 Mark1865

Mark1865
  • Member

  • 369 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:16

How long was it ENDING for?


I’ve just rewatched it and if the message on the timing tower is correct, it was ‘ending’ for 58 seconds

Edited by Mark1865, 24 July 2022 - 15:17.


#17 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:17

I’ve just rewatched it and if the message on the timing tower is correct, it was ‘ending’ for 58 seconds

Crazy if accurate. A technical fault, maybe?



#18 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 21,514 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:18

That was really weird, it was ENDING for ages.

 

Yeah, and the time gaps went all over the place too.  I got the impression Race control had mucked it up a bit.



#19 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:18

How long was it ENDING for?

58 seconds.



Advertisement

#20 chrcol

chrcol
  • Member

  • 2,930 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:19

How long was it ENDING for?

Was definitely longer than 15 seconds.



#21 Mark1865

Mark1865
  • Member

  • 369 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:23

Crazy if accurate. A technical fault, maybe?


Maybe the TV graphics showed the ending message too early, will be interesting to hear from the drivers about it

#22 timmy bolt

timmy bolt
  • Member

  • 1,540 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:23

Was a weird one and must have been an issue, but Perez took his eye off the ball, maybe thinking something was broken...

#23 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:27

In other series (WEC, Formula E for example) you will often hear a countdown on the radio from the race director to the teams (and drivers?) : "Full course yellow ending in 10, 9, 8..." Does anybody know if they have that in F1 too, or is all communication done via the electronic messaging system (i.e. written messages on screen)?


Edited by ANF, 24 July 2022 - 15:27.


#24 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 43,384 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:28

Yeah, Perez confirms that VSC was ending on turn 9 and he was going for it and then it didnt happen.



#25 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:29

I wonder if Pérez's delta was very close to zero after he pulled away from Russell after the chicane.

Edit: I just watched the restart from Pérez onboard. He was in first gear and just lit up the rears when the VSC went out. No wonder Russell breezed past. (Of course the TV boardcast showed Russell's onboard instead of the interesting one.)

Edited by ANF, 24 July 2022 - 15:49.


#26 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 22,115 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:31

Maybe they thought they'd cleared the track and found a piece of carbon fiber at the last moment.

#27 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:41

Maybe they thought they'd cleared the track and found a piece of carbon fiber at the last moment.

Maybe. F1TV viewers should take a look at T6 from the onboards of Norris, Ocon, Ricciardo, Stroll, Vettel, Gasly, Albon. Or maybe Zhou's onboard?

#28 Brod

Brod
  • Member

  • 1,200 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:45

Yeah, Perez confirms that VSC was ending on turn 9 and he was going for it and then it didnt happen.

 

Both were going for it....and then Rus slowed down by a lot. I even thought he had a technical issue....**** was weird. 



#29 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:49

Ant on the Skypad notes that George was speeding up to the delta as Perez was having to slow and compared it to George rolling at a set of traffic lights and able to get away much quicker.



#30 GiorgioF1

GiorgioF1
  • Member

  • 1,546 posts
  • Joined: December 17

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:55

Checo: “It was really unfortunate what happened with the Virtual Safety Car,” he said. “I got the message that it was going to end out of turn nine, so I went for it. But it didn’t end and I had the message saying that it’s going to end all the way through turn 12.

“I was just too close to it. It seems like George had different information and he was able to prepare better for it.”

Russell immediately passed Perez at the restart and took third place. “It was totally wrong with the system, there was something going on,” said the Red Bull driver. “It said it was going to end out of turn nine and it only ended out of turn 13.”

 

 

https://www.racefans...rd-place-perez/



#31 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 15:55

Ant on the Skypad notes that George was speeding up to the delta as Perez was having to slow and compared it to George rolling at a set of traffic lights and able to get away much quicker.

Yeah, and Russell probably was in third gear or something, not first like Pérez.

#32 RekF1

RekF1
  • Member

  • 1,540 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 24 July 2022 - 16:00

I’ve just rewatched it and if the message on the timing tower is correct, it was ‘ending’ for 58 seconds

meanwhile, sky are still congratulating Russell for playing and winning 5D chess against Perez.

#33 Red5ive

Red5ive
  • Member

  • 1,227 posts
  • Joined: May 20

Posted 24 July 2022 - 16:10

meanwhile, sky are still congratulating Russell for playing and winning 5D chess against Perez.

 

 

and...he was clearly trying to time the restart to be right on Perez at speed - about the 3rd time he tried it they actually went green and it worked.



#34 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 3,717 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 24 July 2022 - 16:32

Checo: “It was really unfortunate what happened with the Virtual Safety Car,” he said. “I got the message that it was going to end out of turn nine, so I went for it. But it didn’t end and I had the message saying that it’s going to end all the way through turn 12.
“I was just too close to it. It seems like George had different information and he was able to prepare better for it.”
Russell immediately passed Perez at the restart and took third place. “It was totally wrong with the system, there was something going on,” said the Red Bull driver. “It said it was going to end out of turn nine and it only ended out of turn 13.”


https://www.racefans...rd-place-perez/

I thought it was meant to be random (within limits though obvs).

#35 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 23,346 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 July 2022 - 16:40

Yeah, Perez confirms that VSC was ending on turn 9 and he was going for it and then it didnt happen.


Yep, I see where Perez is coming from now. I no longer blame him for that. We did see him scamper off from Russell, and then he slowed down again so it was an unfortunately miscue due to an unexpectedly long vsc.

#36 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 23,346 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 July 2022 - 16:41

I’ve just rewatched it and if the message on the timing tower is correct, it was ‘ending’ for 58 seconds


Embarrassing

#37 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 17:25

A statement from the FIA said: “A second VSC ending message was sent due to a hardware issue, which led to an automated switch to backup systems that worked exactly as they should in that scenario.

“The same information is supplied to all teams concurrently. The VSC ending countdown time to the green light being displayed on the trackside panels is always random.”

https://www.autospor...ch-gp/10342954/

 

Okay. Also WHY is the countdown random? This is a safety measure ending, so if it’s for sporting reasons,  not sure that’s appropriate.



#38 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,648 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 24 July 2022 - 17:31

Maybe it is F1's Virtual Race Control that is virtually in control of the Virtual Safety Car.

 

Seems to me to be the usual case of having too many chiefs.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 24 July 2022 - 17:31.


#39 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 17:33

Oh, so there's a countdown on the light panels? I've never noticed that.

 

Edit: There is no countdown on the panels, and the FIA statement didn't say there was any. Next time I'll read every word in the sentence...


Edited by ANF, 24 July 2022 - 18:35.


Advertisement

#40 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 14,256 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 24 July 2022 - 17:38

Hardware problem apparently. https://www.autospor...ch-gp/10342954/

#41 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 37,336 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 24 July 2022 - 17:39

https://www.autospor...ch-gp/10342954/

 

Okay. Also WHY is the countdown random? This is a safety measure ending, so if it’s for sporting reasons,  not sure that’s appropriate.

It’ll be random to stop drivers anticipating it. It’s a bit like how the start lights cancel a random number of seconds after the fifth light comes on.



#42 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 18:00

It’ll be random to stop drivers anticipating it. It’s a bit like how the start lights cancel a random number of seconds after the fifth light comes on.

The start lights gap is random for sporting reasons. The VSC is all about managing a track safely from a state where there is risk on track back to live racing. As yellows tend to breed yellows, not sure it’s a great idea to be adding randomness here. If nothing else, it further blurs the line between actions being taken for sporting reasons and actions being taken for safety reasons.



#43 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 21,082 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 18:01

I mean, I’m not going to get a placard to protest this or anything but it’s something Formula E do better, I think.



#44 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 37,336 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 24 July 2022 - 18:18

The start lights gap is random for sporting reasons. The VSC is all about managing a track safely from a state where there is risk on track back to live racing. As yellows tend to breed yellows, not sure it’s a great idea to be adding randomness here. If nothing else, it further blurs the line between actions being taken for sporting reasons and actions being taken for safety reasons.

I think it’s fair from a safety perspective to prevent drivers speeding up in anticipation before the VSC ends.



#45 jpm2019

jpm2019
  • Member

  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 24 July 2022 - 18:21

The start lights gap is random for sporting reasons. The VSC is all about managing a track safely from a state where there is risk on track back to live racing. As yellows tend to breed yellows, not sure it’s a great idea to be adding randomness here. If nothing else, it further blurs the line between actions being taken for sporting reasons and actions being taken for safety reasons.

The vsc is for safety reason. Just as sc and red flags. The restarting procedure is not about safety since the track is safe, but about creating a situation where the system cant be exploited by people managing their gaps in a way they use it to overtake.



#46 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,871 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 24 July 2022 - 20:17

https://www.autospor...ch-gp/10342954/

 

Okay. Also WHY is the countdown random? This is a safety measure ending, so if it’s for sporting reasons,  not sure that’s appropriate.

Ah, they've run "we ****ed it up" through the English To FIA translator to have it come out as "we got it brilliantly correct and you are all cretins".



#47 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 23,346 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 24 July 2022 - 20:21

I think it’s fair from a safety perspective to prevent drivers speeding up in anticipation before the VSC ends.


But if they all know it’s coming, is it really a big deal? Isn’t it safer if people get up to speed at the same time? Why does it matter if they “speed up” considering that the track is cleared before the “VSC ending” message can be displayed.

Edited by ARTGP, 24 July 2022 - 20:22.


#48 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 23,789 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 July 2022 - 23:17

But if they all know it’s coming, is it really a big deal? Isn’t it safer if people get up to speed at the same time? Why does it matter if they “speed up” considering that the track is cleared before the “VSC ending” message can be displayed.

It's F1, so if drivers were given an exact countdown I guess there's always the risk that some will play games like they do when they are about to enter DRS zones: one second before zero they just happen to touch the brake pedal and the car behind will have to take avoiding action...

Or, if they're approaching a corner, they could slow down to make sure they get a good acceleration when the light panels go green while the car behind is still mid-corner, just like the leaders do at SC restarts.