107 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

I remember being a Hakkinen fan back last century (sob) and in 1999 he span out of the lead because he downshifted too far and threw away the Italian Grand Prix

He also previous to that crashed out of the lead of the Grand Prix at Imola too…

After the Monza race he was filmed crying behind a bush

For anyone who’s not seen it - here’s Mika on the McLaren website looking back on it, and he admits the frustrations of throwing away race wins (especially in front of the tifosi) and potentially the championship started to eat him up inside

https://www.mclaren....f-mika-in-1999/


This is how LeClerc is - he’s really hard on himself (probably correctly so) but that scream in the car yesterday, he knows he’s got a golden opportunity to win this year but he’s making unforced errors which conspire to hand the title to Verstappen

[Astandahl]

I remember being a Hakkinen fan back last century (sob) and in 1999 he span out of the lead because he downshifted too far and threw away the Italian Grand Prix

He also previous to that crashed out of the lead of the Grand Prix at Imola too…

After the Monza race he was filmed crying behind a bush

For anyone who’s not seen it - here’s Mika on the McLaren website looking back on it, and he admits the frustrations of throwing away race wins (especially in front of the tifosi) and potentially the championship started to eat him up inside

https://www.mclaren....f-mika-in-1999/


This is how LeClerc is - he’s really hard on himself (probably correctly so) but that scream in the car yesterday, he knows he’s got a golden opportunity to win this year but he’s making unforced errors which conspire to hand the title to Verstappen

Not really after the Spain Monaco Baku Canada Silverstone streak.

 

This mistake closed the deal for good, but winning the WDC was already a mission impossible.

Edited by Astandahl, 25 July 2022 - 12:30.

[Claudius]

Not really after the Spain Monaco Baku Canada Silverstone streak.

This mistake closed the deal for good, but winning the WDC was already a mission impossible.

He’s got a fast car.
Not such a good strategy team though.

[Astandahl]

He’s got a fast car.
Not such a good strategy team though.

Lack of reliability as well.

[Okyo]

A scream like that is way more usual than some think, it's just that this time it accidentally aired. Most drivers do it at some point or the other so really wouldn't read much in to it. 

This coming from a person that has gotten quite a few screams like that out himself. It does provide a good way to get some steam out, just not quite doable around people. 

Edited by Okyo, 25 July 2022 - 12:38.

[pacificquay]

Mika spun, rather than span. /grammarpedantryoff

 

 

The difference is the errors from Mika were very much out of character and, thankfully he went on to win the title.

 

It was a shock to see him make those slips, whereas with LeClerc his undoubted pace is offset by the impression that he always has the propensity for an error in him, and has done throughout his career.

[ANF]

Leclerc seemed pretty fed up with himself in this post-race interview yesterday https://www.formula1...7595198638.html

[Astandahl]

Leclerc seemed pretty fed up with himself in this post-race interview yesterday https://www.formula1...7595198638.html

I mean... he is right.

[PlatenGlass]

With a scream like that, you'd think he had a GP2 engine.

[SenorSjon]

Hakkinen (and McLaren) made a lot of unforced errors in 1999 once Schumacher was out of the equation. The pressure was on him to bring the title home.

With Leclerc, there was no such pressure. He was on the edge of the undercut range and just tried to hard.

Also, the sprint era in F1 was less forgiving.

[fed up]

This reminds me of Vettel Hockenheim, although the Hackinen comparison is also apt.

 

LeClerc has pace, plenty of it, but he needs to iron out the mistakes sharpish. That said, one would rather a quick driver that sometimes makes mistakes than an average driver that doesn’t make any. 
 

[harney]

This reminds me of Vettel Hockenheim

Agreed, this was the first thing I thought of when I saw him in the wall. This wreck might be the defining moment between some semblance of a title fight and a full-on Verstappen romp.

[Ivanhoe]

With Leclerc, there was no such pressure. He was on the edge of the undercut range and just tried to hard.

They weren't even trying to prevent the undercut but were going longer on the mediums.

[ANF]

Yeah, the gap had already come down and it would have been too late to pit and keep the lead.

[Roadhouse]

Leclerc should really get a mental coach if he doesn't have one yet. I think he's the quickest driver over a lap, but his lack of confidence gets the better of him. I think he's too hard on himself.

[Claudius]

Like someone else said in another thread, Lec is great while defending, almost flawless. But can make mistakes driving on his own.
He’s a wonderful driver, I hope he will get on top of this.
I want many Lec-Ver battles and title fights.

[Ferrim]

Yep. I can't pretend to read minds, but Leclerc looks to me as someone who could get a lot of upside from coaching. Maybe the harsh critic of himself - "I am stupid!" - is his way of dealing with frustration, though.

[Jovanotti]

Hakkinen (and McLaren) made a lot of unforced errors in 1999 once Schumacher was out of the equation. The pressure was on him to bring the title home.

With Leclerc, there was no such pressure. He was on the edge of the undercut range and just tried to hard.

Also, the sprint era in F1 was less forgiving.

I rather think Häkkinen had problems because the pressure was off with Schumacher out of the title fight. He never seemed too bothered delivering under huge pressure (see 2000). Leclerc by contrast is under a lot of pressure with Ferrari not having won anything in years and finally having a competitive car, but starting to lose the fight.

Edited by Jovanotti, 25 July 2022 - 14:12.

[GentlemanDriver091]

This is how LeClerc is - he’s really hard on himself (probably correctly so) but that scream in the car yesterday, he knows he’s got a golden opportunity to win this year but he’s making unforced errors which conspire to hand the title to Verstappen

Reminds me of that guy yelling on the radio ‘I’m so stupid!’… oh wait…

Great driver but a bit of a drama queen now and then.

[KPower]

I don't any difference between what Leclerc did and any other driver that crashes out of a race to be honest. 

Edited by KPower, 25 July 2022 - 14:28.

[KPower]

Yep. I can't pretend to read minds, but Leclerc looks to me as someone who could get a lot of upside from coaching. Maybe the harsh critic of himself - "I am stupid!" - is his way of dealing with frustration, though.

 

Jock Clear is in his garage every weekend. 

[midgrid]

The difference is the errors from Mika were very much out of character and, thankfully he went on to win the title.
 
It was a shock to see him make those slips, whereas with LeClerc his undoubted pace is offset by the impression that he always has the propensity for an error in him, and has done throughout his career.

Häkkinen was a safe pair of hands by the time he had the opportunity to contend for a championship, but let's not forget that he was quite erratic -- sufficiently so to merit a race ban, no less -- in his earlier F1 days.

[cpbell]

For me, the parallels are with 1995.  Talented newer driver wins first WDC in controversial cirumstances at the final race of the previous season, then main rival the following year fails to maintain an early advantage due to team strategic errors and personal driving mistakes.  Max is in Michael's place here; Leclerc is Damon.

[cpbell]

Häkkinen was a safe pair of hands by the time he had the opportunity to contend for a championship, but let's not forget that he was quite erratic -- sufficiently so to merit a race ban, no less -- in his earlier F1 days.

He took Senna out at Aida in 1994 at T1.

[Ferrim]

Jock Clear is in his garage every weekend.

You're right there, wasn't aware of that.

[RekF1]

Lack of reliability as well.

Didn't Ferrari say they've risked reliability for performance? So maybe they'd have more points if they weren't stressing the PU and consolidating points until they have a solution for reliability. With the price cap (assuming that includes PU R&D) they surely would send upgrades to customer teams just for the benefit of the data wouldn't they? Bottom line, he and his team seems to panic.

I know Leclerc had seemed to be pushing the limit, but Sainz was much faster all weekend and didn't ever look like spinning out. Maybe they've tried some reverse psychology and secretly think that Sainz can win the title if there's less to zero expectation and pressure.

As someone said in the race thread, I don't see Leclerc having the right to have Sainz move out the way anymore. He's been massively over-hyped. He's good, but very flawed.

[Spillage]

I do see a sort of smilarity in Verstaoppen v Leclerc to what we had during Schumacher v Hakkinen. Leclerc/Hakkinen were blisteringly fast, especially over one lap, but perhaps not quite as quick in race trim and a little more error prone than their metronomic rival.

That said, I don't think you can say Leclerc is especially error prone. He's made two mistakes this year and there's every chance they're the only two serious msitakes he'll make all year. It's just that Verstappen doesn't make any. Even when he does make an error, like in Spain, it's in a position from which he can recover. So in the end Leclerc doesn't make more errors than most drivers, but the errors he does make ends up costing 30+ points and you can't give Verstappen that kind of room.

I think we just need to give credit where it's due to Ma to be honest. These past two years he's been relentless.

Edited by Spillage, 25 July 2022 - 16:08.

[messy]

The biggest difference for me is that Hakkinen in 1999 was fighting Eddie Irvine and Heinz Harald Frentzen, neither remotely expected to carry any sort of championship challenge and neither anything like as fast as Mika when he joined the dots. So Hakkinen and McLaren could fart around dropping points all over the place and still edge out Irvine for the title. Leclerc is up against Max Verstappen on top of his form and in a car that’s arguably just as good as the Ferrari. So every time he drops out of a race he gets further and further behind. He’s not going to win this years WDC in a million years, Max has one hand on it already.

I see more similarities in current MotoGP, personally - with Max being Fabio Quartararo, not always the absolute pacesetter, but somehow always banking the results, with Leclerc being Pecco Bagnaia setting pole after pole and yet falling further and further back despite arguably being the faster package. One blue and one red, even…

Hakkinen’s ‘99 campaign was salvaged himself, but it was McLaren who rather embarrassingly lost the WCC to Ferrari despite being far quicker and throwing away all kinds of results all season, there’s the slightly uncomfortable parallel I think with the shoe being on the other foot and now Ferrari being the ones blundering constantly out of a potential WCC tilt.

[Nemo1965]

I think Max is just a little bit better than Leclerc but even if there are exactly equal, they are not in the same situation. Max has changed his style considerably, he really accepts a second place now behind, for example, Leclerc or Perez. He’s really going for maximum points now. He has said it in numerous interviews that now he has won the title, everything else is a bonus.

Leclerc doesn’t not have that luxury. This year might be the only year he will get a real chance at the world title. Not because he does not deserve another chance, because he does, but in Formula One you never know when you are going to have a championship worthy car again. In his mind he could not preserve his tires, he could not allow Max to take the lead or even get a chance to overtake. That is why he made several small mistakes before his big mistake. It is quite understandable, methinks, and not such a slight of his talent.

[vlado]

Leclerc doesn’t not have that luxury. This year might be the only year he will get a real chance at the world title. Not because he does not deserve another chance, because he does, but in Formula One you never know when you are going to have a championship worthy car again. In his mind he could not preserve his tires, he could not allow Max to take the lead or even get a chance to overtake. That is why he made several small mistakes before his big mistake. It is quite understandable, methinks, and not such a slight of his talent.

 

Yep, and that's why I think that blunder in Monaco hurt so much.. he might never get another chance like that, not to mention that the whole GP might be gone. 

[George Costanza]

Mika Hakkinen certainly was a better driver. One lap, both are extremely quick.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 July 2022 - 20:33.

[Astandahl]

Mika Hakkinen certainly was a better driver. One lap, both are extremely quick.

[MikeTekRacing]

I think Max is just a little bit better than Leclerc but even if there are exactly equal, they are not in the same situation. Max has changed his style considerably, he really accepts a second place now behind, for example, Leclerc or Perez. He’s really going for maximum points now. He has said it in numerous interviews that now he has won the title, everything else is a bonus.

Leclerc doesn’t not have that luxury. This year might be the only year he will get a real chance at the world title. Not because he does not deserve another chance, because he does, but in Formula One you never know when you are going to have a championship worthy car again. In his mind he could not preserve his tires, he could not allow Max to take the lead or even get a chance to overtake. That is why he made several small mistakes before his big mistake. It is quite understandable, methinks, and not such a slight of his talent.

I don't mean this as a detractor for leclerc, but he's clearly not yet matured.

Incredibly fast, smart, hard racer - he needs to learn some things.

every driver makes mistakes. Sometimes, though, it's also where and how much risk you take.

Max spun in Barcelona, but he kept it going, didn't hit anything etc. you can call it luck, you can call it skill.

Lewis hit his car in Imola last year - but the conditions were terrible and had to get offline. 

Max made some bat sh!t crazy moves on Lewis last year - he was in a do or die moment - but again, different circumstances, last races around and feeling it was slipping away.

 

Point is he needs to know when 105% of what he's confident he can deliver is too much and not take that chance every lap.

[FirstnameLastname]

Leclerc is up against Max Verstappen on top of his form and in a car that’s arguably just as good as the Ferrari. So every time he drops out of a race he gets further and further behind. He’s not going to win this years WDC in a million years, Max has one hand on it already. .

It’s nuts to think that a few rounds in - Max was 50-odd (if I remember right) points behind Charles, and folk were already handing him the title. Max has had a 100 point swing in 10 races which is mental.

Winning the championship last year has helped max calm down it seems - this year he’s like a different driver and absolutely knows that playing the long game is crucial.

[pacificquay]

Mika Hakkinen certainly was a better driver. One lap, both are extremely quick.

Agreed, Hakkinen definitely a notch above LeClerc.

[Ruusperi]

I was thinking the same parallels. Häkkinen had 11 poles, from which he only won 3 (Leclerc has 7 poles, from which he has won 2). Clearly they both are seasons where the fastest driver didn't make the most of it.

Besides Imola and Monza errors, there were also plenty of other mishaps during the 1999 season. In Australia he retired from the lead. In Silverstone a wheel came loose. In Austria Coulthard collided with Mika. In Hockenheim wheel again, this time exploding, ended his race. In Nürburgring McLaren's mixed-conditions strategy went awry. So pretty eventful season, and somewhat similar to Leclerc's.

And while Mika Salo had to give his maiden win to Irvine, McLaren didn't use team orders later in Spa. Let's see if Carlos has to yield later in the season. Currently the gap is so huge team orders don't really matter.

Edited by Ruusperi, 25 July 2022 - 21:32.

[pacificquay]

Overall though, Mika is a double world champion whereas at the moment LeClerc is just Jean Alesi in a better car

[Astandahl]

Overall though, Mika is a double world champion whereas at the moment LeClerc is just Jean Alesi in a better car

It's Leclerc, not LeClerc.

Edited by Astandahl, 25 July 2022 - 21:40.

[Deeq]

Overall though, Mika is a double world champion whereas at the moment LeClerc is just Jean Alesi in a better car

Car quality has nothing to do with the number of titles respective driver has right?🙄

[MaroF1]

Overall though, Mika is a double world champion whereas at the moment LeClerc is just Jean Alesi in a better car

Of course a biased Mclaren fan would say this. Leclerc is on pace with Max Verstappen who is the best driver in the world and already greater than Hakkinen, while Mclaren pathetically havent won WCC since 1998.

[MikeTekRacing]

Overall though, Mika is a double world champion whereas at the moment LeClerc is just Jean Alesi in a better car

Mika won 1998 with a great car advantage (and won it at the last race) against MS and barely won 1999 against Eddie Irvine in a Ferrari.

 

He was a very strong driver on his days, but he had too many off days.

Leclerc seems to be almost always on the pace (although this weekend he looked slightly off) but he makes too many mistakes (for the level of talent and speed he has). Certainly an easier problem to fix than no errors but slow.

 

I think Leclerc clearly is a more complete package than Mika Hakkinen was. 

[George Costanza]

Mika won 1998 with a great car advantage (and won it at the last race) against MS and barely won 1999 against Eddie Irvine in a Ferrari.

He was a very strong driver on his days, but he had too many off days.
Leclerc seems to be almost always on the pace (although this weekend he looked slightly off) but he makes too many mistakes (for the level of talent and speed he has). Certainly an easier problem to fix than no errors but slow.

I think Leclerc clearly is a more complete package than Mika Hakkinen was.

Mika beat Michael Schumacher in his prime. There was no one better than Michael in his prime. Not even Charles. Only Max or Lewis is the equal to Michael in the late 1990's.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 July 2022 - 23:36.

[George Costanza]

For me, the parallels are with 1995. Talented newer driver wins first WDC in controversial cirumstances at the final race of the previous season, then main rival the following year fails to maintain an early advantage due to team strategic errors and personal driving mistakes. Max is in Michael's place here; Leclerc is Damon.

Damon Hill was underrated and still is... People forget how good he really was...

Comparing the 2022 Ferrari to the 1995 Williams is a bit of a stretch, that 1995 Williams was by far the best car on the grid. The drivers let it down. I don't think the 2022 Ferrari is THE best car because Red Bull has matched quite often. Now granted the difference is Max in 2022 and 1995 was Michael, but just ask David Coulthard, he said the 1995 Williams FW17 was the best car he drove and he put it on pole quite often and qualifying wasn't DC strength. FW-17 was a very quick car... Very. Heck, Damon Hill lapped twice the field in the 1995 Australian GP. Of course lots of drivers had retirements.. But still.

I don't think it's quite as good as the 1995 Williams because we saw in 1996, the evolution of that car, FW18, completely dominated everything... Whereas the 1996 Benetton essentially an evolution of the 1995 championship winner didn't win a race... Again the difference was Michael Schumacher. I am sure Max would have done the same in car of that level.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 July 2022 - 23:59.

[George Costanza]

It’s nuts to think that a few rounds in - Max was 50-odd (if I remember right) points behind Charles, and folk were already handing him the title. Max has had a 100 point swing in 10 races which is mental.

Winning the championship last year has helped max calm down it seems - this year he’s like a different driver and absolutely knows that playing the long game is crucial.

Max is very similar to Michael in this regard.

[MikeTekRacing]

Mika beat Michael Schumacher in his prime. There was no one better than Michael in his prime. Not even Charles. Only Max or Lewis is the equal to Michael in the late 1990's.

Sure, he beat him in 1998 in a monster car. 

It doesn't take away anything from the fact he won - but it came down to the last race.

Mika, on his days, could take it to Michael - but that wasn't happening very often

[George Costanza]

Sure, he beat him in 1998 in a monster car.
It doesn't take away anything from the fact he won - but it came down to the last race.
Mika, on his days, could take it to Michael - but that wasn't happening very often

Ironically I always thought 2000 was Mika's best season. He had some awesome battles with Michael that year. And of course, it was Michael's best IMHO.

[FirstnameLastname]

Mika won 1998 with a great car advantage (and won it at the last race) against MS and barely won 1999 against Eddie Irvine in a Ferrari.

He was a very strong driver on his days, but he had too many off days.
Leclerc seems to be almost always on the pace (although this weekend he looked slightly off) but he makes too many mistakes (for the level of talent and speed he has). Certainly an easier problem to fix than no errors but slow.

I think Leclerc clearly is a more complete package than Mika Hakkinen was.

You’re making me question my Mika fandom now

Rose tinted specs for me as 1998 was the first full season I was ‘all in’ for F1

But you’re right - Schumacher was still in contention (and fighting hard) until Suzuka where he suffered a tyre failure and retired. DC ‘let him pass’ (into his rear wing) in Spa which cost him another 10pts too. And DC handed the Australian GP to Hakkinen as well after he’d thrown that away.

For a 2x WDC he really scrapped both of them despite the best car.

Still luv ya thou Mika

[PayasYouRace]

Damon Hill was underrated and still is... People forget how good he really was...

Comparing the 2022 Ferrari to the 1995 Williams is a bit of a stretch, that 1995 Williams was by far the best car on the grid. The drivers let it down. I don't think the 2022 Ferrari is THE best car because Red Bull has matched quite often. Now granted the difference is Max in 2022 and 1995 was Michael, but just ask David Coulthard, he said the 1995 Williams FW17 was the best car he drove and he put it on pole quite often and qualifying wasn't DC strength. FW-17 was a very quick car... Very. Heck, Damon Hill lapped twice the field in the 1995 Australian GP. Of course lots of drivers had retirements.. But still.

I don't think it's quite as good as the 1995 Williams because we saw in 1996, the evolution of that car, FW18, completely dominated everything... Whereas the 1996 Benetton essentially an evolution of the 1995 championship winner didn't win a race... Again the difference was Michael Schumacher. I am sure Max would have done the same in car of that level.

No, I think 1995 is an almost perfect parallel to this year. The Williams and Benetton were almost level pegging that year, but like the Ferrari and and Red Bull this year. Max, like Michael, is consistent and fast. Leclerc, like Damon, is fast but making mistakes or being let down by the car (Brazil, Germany, etc.)

 

You can’t use Australia 1995 as an example of how quick the FW17 was. All the front runners were out apart from Damon, plus gaps tended to be larger with midfield cars usually going a lap down anyway. Also, Williams nailed the 1996 regulation changes with a superbly optimised car, while Benetton found their new drivers couldn’t get the maximum out of a car suited to Michael.

[SpeedRacer`]

Damon Hill was underrated and still is... People forget how good he really was...

Comparing the 2022 Ferrari to the 1995 Williams is a bit of a stretch, that 1995 Williams was by far the best car on the grid. The drivers let it down. I don't think the 2022 Ferrari is THE best car because Red Bull has matched quite often. Now granted the difference is Max in 2022 and 1995 was Michael, but just ask David Coulthard, he said the 1995 Williams FW17 was the best car he drove and he put it on pole quite often and qualifying wasn't DC strength. FW-17 was a very quick car... Very. Heck, Damon Hill lapped twice the field in the 1995 Australian GP. Of course lots of drivers had retirements.. But still.

I don't think it's quite as good as the 1995 Williams because we saw in 1996, the evolution of that car, FW18, completely dominated everything... Whereas the 1996 Benetton essentially an evolution of the 1995 championship winner didn't win a race... Again the difference was Michael Schumacher. I am sure Max would have done the same in car of that level.

 

They also had an awful lot of reliability problems too though. Benetton were (relatively) bulletproof. 

[Ferrim]

Ironically I always thought 2000 was Mika's best season. He had some awesome battles with Michael that year. And of course, it was Michael's best IMHO.

 

I see it rarely mentioned, but part of what made "the Zonta overtake" that special was the championship situation. Ferrari had started very strong, with Schumacher taking the first three wins. By the mid-season, both McLaren drivers were more than 20 points behind MS (55-60 points in current money). Hakkinen was closely matched with Coulthard, and they were taking points from each other. But Mika found his mojo, Ferrari lost the plot, and four races later the Finn was into the championship lead for the first time. When he managed to get that move done, he was extending his lead to 6 points (equivalent to a second place), which with four races to go isn't much; but the momentum was such that it looked like he was going to walk away with his third title. Back in 2000, no one apart from Fangio had won three WDCs in a row, so that would have been no small feat.